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Thread: Breaking News in the Great Glasses Court Case

  1. #101
    Master OptiBoarder mike.elmes's Avatar
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    Harry, the key to improving Opticianry in your State is education. Someone needs to take a great working model in perhaps one of the other States that has Ophthalmic courses setup already. I believe there may be some excellent Canadian models to use also. The Opticians Association here in Alberta has been a success story, as has other provinces in Canada. College courses for Opticians will help legitimize the trade of Opticianry and help sculpt its scope of practice.When I took the course 25 odd years ago, I couln't believe how indepth it was. Perhaps your State needs a guy like you to help shape the future of Opticianry.

  2. #102
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Thank you mike, I think we are finally trying. I have offered help to my state and they are slowly moving in a direction to help opticianry. I have finaly commited to getting a degree and will be persueing a degree, to make what I say supposedly more legitamate. For some reason education and the paper that says you have an education are two different things.
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  3. #103
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    I've spoken my mind. No sense in continuing this.

  4. #104
    OptiBoard Professional Ory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
    I wish I could but I'm not a surgeon and neither are you.
    Your posts show that lack of education in some that I alluded to earlier. If you're serious, I suggest you go have a frank discussion about this with an optometrist. Otherwise I guess you just enjoy trolling.

  5. #105
    registeredoptician Refractingoptician.com's Avatar
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    Last edited by Refractingoptician.com; 03-02-2007 at 12:47 AM.

  6. #106
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Question, would it be OK for someone in the US to take a Rx written by an optician from one of your provinces that do allow opticians to refract?
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  7. #107
    registeredoptician Refractingoptician.com's Avatar
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    Last edited by Refractingoptician.com; 03-02-2007 at 12:46 AM.

  8. #108
    Master OptiBoarder mike.elmes's Avatar
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    All rx's are signed by an Ophthalmologist.

  9. #109
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    What "offices" have quotas for Visual Fields? Is it a retail chain that I would know?

  10. #110
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangezero
    What "offices" have quotas for Visual Fields? Is it a retail chain that I would know?
    Check your PM, disgusting isn't it. I just found this out this weekend, it makes my blood boil. :angry:
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  11. #111
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    back to the original topic.

    I read in my local paper on Saturday that the College of Opticians is taking Bruce Bergez and Great Glasses to court on December 19th.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Mike:
    Mike , I have no idea what the situation is in Alberta for refracting , but in any event I was responding to Shawn who is in Optical Retail in Ontario . Shawn does not identify himself as an optometrist or as a Registered Optician under the laws of Ontario, so I assume that he is an untrained person working in optical retail.

    Shawn says and I quote " ... to run an Eyelogic machine you really don't need to know much about anything." And to that I would add " if you don't know much , at least you know the value of your services and are charging appropriately , hence it is Free.

    And to that I would also point out that in Ontario , to be legal an Optician needs a prescription signed by a optometrist , ophthalmologist or MD . Who is signing in Toronto , Shawn ? Is there a patient / Doctor relationship that would satisfy the College of Physicians, Optometrists , or Opticians ?

    Or are people using automated methods cutting corners ?
    Hey Gary... let's clear up a few things...

    You refered to me as saying that you don't need to know much about anything to "run" the Eyelogic system. You added to that comment that "if you don't know much , at least you know the value of your services and are charging appropriately , hence it is Free"
    1) I did say that you don't need to know much about anything with regards to running the Eyelogic system with ease. I went on to say, that as long as one knows how to use a computer they really wouldn't have much trouble. That by no means, implies one doesn't know anything. It would be silly to make such a judgment. It means that the program is easy to operate, provided one knows how to use a computer.
    2) Your last comment that the value of the service reflects the price is another off statement. It's being said to insult and it is ripe with sarcasm and negativity. To make an association between the fee one is charging and the quality of service they provide, you've made a grave error. Price by no means reflects quality of service. And to take it a step further, I say let the public decide. If they want to pay for something they feel has value- excellent, and if they want a free service because that's the value they place on it- excellent.

    You go on to ask me who is signing in Toronto and if the colleges would accept the relationship.
    1) You must be confused Gary because the College of Opticians of Ontario has a strict regulations on the validity of a prescription. However, not one of those necessities says that an optician must know the relationship between the person prescribing and the patient. It speaks of nothing of the sort. So if the COO isn't asking or referring into the details of the relationship- why would someone dispensing care?? As long as it is signed off by on optometrist, ophthalmologist, or general practitioner- it is legal to use. Case closed.
    2) You ask who is signing the scripts? I haven't a clue.

    Finally your automated methods cutting corners comments?
    1) You have put a very negative spin on this for no reason. Automated methods do not cut corners, they are highly efficient, and in most cases are adopted because they reduce the time needed to obtain a result, and they require less training. However, what you forget to think about is the time it takes to develop automated methods. They do not appear over night, only as technology progresses does it fruits become available outside of the lab.
    And you choose again not to read what has been written by me.
    I have never, ever, disputed a complete eye examination being less thorough than an automated sight test. Having said that, it was never the goal for them to be compared on the same level. Obviously a complete eye test provides much more information, and much more detail as to the health of one's eyes and visual system. However, is it the right choice for everyone, all of the time? I think that it is not. Yes, regular check ups are a great idea and I would recommend them to anyone- but they are not a necessity.


    Do autolensometers cut corners??? Do autorefractors ODs use during pre-testing cut corners??? Do calculators cut corners?? Do cars cut corners? Think about that.

    Like I've said so many times before Gary, and will say again: give people the knowledge to make a decision- don't tell them what to do, because you think it is correct. What might be right for you Gary isn't necessarily right for someone else. Especially when you are forcing someone to pay.

  13. #113
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    I usually blindfold my patients at their house, twirl them around a few times, and then bus them to my office. In this way, they have no choice where to get glasses or how the refractions are done. Also, we have installed bars on our windows so they can't sneak out and buy frames elsewhere.

    It is interesting how wide a variation there is in how a refraction is done, what people believe or don't believe it entails, the legal and medical definitions, and the history of all this. And also most importantly to most on this board, how it should be changed to better fit their own personal business model.

    I'm just guessing, but I think those that feel justified in charging for a change of nosepads or cleaning are probably not the ones that feel ok with giving away stand along refractions for free...

    My personal belief is that the optical business should be a right. We should all be issued glasses whenever they are needed, funded by tax dollars. Then we wouldn't need silly postings on here about what frames are the best, because we'd only need male, female, and child. Seemed to work well in the military, then maybe not as many unwanted pregnancies as well.

    I'm sorry, there are just too many topics on this one thread to keep it all straight.

  14. #114
    Excalibur
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    Wish I could have responded sooner, but I was too busy being greedy and seeing a lot of patients again today. :D

    As for adding a signature line to 'man up'? Give me a break. I don't need you to tell me what to do on this board. I usually don't mud-wrestle with swine, but I'll make an exception with you.

    As for 'canned responses' from the ODs. C'mon.... take a valium.

  15. #115
    Excalibur
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    Oh yes...

    forgot to mention the patient I saw this morning who had IOPs that were 22 OD, 15 OS and bilateral low pacs. OD ONH had inferior scalloping with a drance hemorrhage. She had been seeing a refractionist in the back of an optical shop (ie. optician only), and now may have some field changes. I am doing more testing for glaucomatous field changes this week, along with gonioscopy. She might launch a lawsuit against the refractionist for not properly counselling her too. Should be interesting.

    Yup... let's put an Eyelogic on every street corner. Let's make 'free' refractions accessible for everyone. Smart move! :shiner:

    ----

  16. #116
    OptiBoard Professional Ory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangezero View Post
    I usually blindfold my patients at their house, twirl them around a few times, and then bus them to my office. In this way, they have no choice where to get glasses or how the refractions are done. Also, we have installed bars on our windows so they can't sneak out and buy frames elsewhere.
    :D :D :D I love that approach. I assume you pull their credit report before you travel to their house, right?

  17. #117
    registeredoptician Refractingoptician.com's Avatar
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  18. #118
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    Hey, this thread is actually getting funny. You Canadian optometrists have a better sense of humor than we do in the states. I think its because you are allowed to park in handicapped spots, and we're not.

  19. #119
    Master OptiBoarder mike.elmes's Avatar
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    questions??

    Gary, you seem to have an Optometric flavour to your posts. Are you a dispenser(non- lisenced, or non practicing) working for an Ontario Optometrist? If anyone is using an Eyelogic system without a MD'S signature they are working outside the Eyelogic agreement,and will pay the price.
    The use of the eyelogic is a value added service that is built into the cost of eyeglasses. Does it pay for itself?? Absolutely. Is it as accurate at manual refracting, with regards to acuity, no question. Do our customers like the final results......overwelmingly yes...one lens redo in 250 so far with our company. If the eyelogic model is followed correctly,its a win-win.... Providing its legal in your province, which it isn't in Ontario at this time. Time will tell.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Shawn:
    The plain truth of the matter is this :
    (1) If you are an optician in Ontario and refracting ,and making glasses from those results without a Dr. then it is being done illegally and corners are being cut .
    (2) Making glasses from unsigned Eye Logic results is prescribing and that is illegal in Ontario for opticians and unlicensed and uneducated optical retail persons .
    (3) Autolensometers are not accurate instruments and they are useless in the hands of untrained people . They are used by people who do not know what a B&L 70 is and would have no clue as to how to use a B&L 70. Autolensometers were designed for untrained people to get quick results. Ask any optician what they think of an autolensometer.

    Autorefractors are a beginning to an end but they are not the start, stop and finish .

    Calculators ( you should not have asked ) ... figures don't lie , but liars figure.

    (4) Give people the knowledge to make a decision ? Do you mean what you say Shawn ? I doubt it . Are you going to tell people the differerence between an autolensometer and a B & L 70 ? Are you going to tell them the difference between a real eye exam and just a refraction in terms that will assure they also have a real eye health check up ? Are you going to tell them the rx from Eye Logic is illegal to use unless signed by a Dr they have never seen ? Are you going to tell them that you do not care who signs it because it is not required by the College ? Are you going to tell them that you are not an optician and technically that it is illegal for you to dispense eyewear to them Shawn ? Are you really going to give them the REAL knowledge that they would need to make an intelligent choice ? Pretty doubtful .

    (5) the only real reason eye refractions are "FREE" is because those that are using the Eye Logic systems at the moment are using it to sell their frames and lenses by illegally prescribing or by not caring that the Dr. signing the Rx has no patient Dr relationship. These type of refractionists are using the Eye Logic system to drive their frame and lens business. They are NOT using it to give the public a choice nor to give the public a free service . They are using it for their own market share reasons to sell more glasses .

    How many refractions do you do per day Shawn ?
    Gary you are quite the comedian... LOL.
    I see this discussion going absolutely no where. I respect your point of view, and I hope that the next time your own health is in question that someone else makes your health decisions for you, because as long as they know more than you- it is acceptable for them to force their view on you.

    As far as you doubting me about educating patients before they make a decision- I cannot help you with that. If I say something and you think otherwise, that's between you and you- not you and me.

    And as far as you assuming that people who use Eyelogic are only doing so to drive up business, and not give patients a choice- that is absurd. I don't see the logic in your statement, only because automated sight tests are not their only option, which means people are free to make a decision for or against it. I cannot speak for everyone using the system, but I will say that people are free to make a decision between using the system and seeing an OD or MD- we can only answer their questions, we cannot make decisions for them.

    The most hilarious thing you said so far, "They are NOT using it to give the public a choice nor to give the public a free service. They are using it for their own market share reasons to sell more glasses." This is the best comment you made. Your speak with so much certainty, this argument can easily be re-worded to include ODs. And how can you logically say that providing an alternative option is not giving the public choice? And how can you logically say that by giving them this free option is not providing them with a free option. If the result of these options is increased market share and the selling of glasses- well then the public has spoken- who are you to decide over the majority?

    The fact, and I will say that again- the fact- is that you don't want people to have a choice, you want to make it for them. I don't see it like that, I think people who are trusted to drive on streets in moving vehicles, who vote for the people who run the country- should be entitled to make their own health decisions.

    And FYI Gary, I don't do any refractions or sight tests. Again, you can assume what you will. :bbg:

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike.elmes View Post
    Gary, you seem to have an Optometric flavour to your posts. Are you a dispenser(non- lisenced, or non practicing) working for an Ontario Optometrist? If anyone is using an Eyelogic system without a MD'S signature they are working outside the Eyelogic agreement,and will pay the price.
    The use of the eyelogic is a value added service that is built into the cost of eyeglasses. Does it pay for itself?? Absolutely. Is it as accurate at manual refracting, with regards to acuity, no question. Do our customers like the final results......overwelmingly yes...one lens redo in 250 so far with our company. If the eyelogic model is followed correctly,its a win-win.... Providing its legal in your province, which it isn't in Ontario at this time. Time will tell.
    Nice point Mike E. I was thinking the exact same thing while reading Gary's flamboyant posts.
    Great to hear that you're having success with the Eyelogic system. One remake out of 250 is nothing short of perfection. And with your overwhelming positive customer experiences, I think the public will be in a better place to make decisions about their own health. Keep up the great work... hopefully we'll catch up here in Ontario. :)

  22. #122
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    You know what, after reading all this, I've changed my mind. I do think lower standards under the guise of freedom of choice is the way to go with eyecare!!!

    I've turned a new leaf myself. If a patient wants to get glaucoma, I'll let them decide on there own, after all it is there choice and I shouldn't be the one to tell them what to do. I'll even provide my office as a library where they can research each and every eye disease so they can know what to look for and what tests to do on themselves. The nerve of a group of professionals that train for many years and then expect to be paid for their knowledge or their services.... especially at such outrageously high prices.

    I think I may talk to my state and national representatives about how we could put these computer systems in the backs of trucks and drive around to people's houses and throw out free frames as we drive by. Then they can have the choice of any online retailer to purchase pre-edged lenses, and just pop them in. Maybe I'll drive around in an ice cream truck and offer AR dips... I've secretly known for a long time, but was previously unwilling to admit, this injustice is probably the biggest problem the US currently faces. Fake eye exam should cost less than getting your nails done, not equal to getting your nails done. I think this will solve a lot more problems than most of us realize...

    gotta go, I'm working on my at home prk to put all this nonsense out of business once and for all.

  23. #123
    Optiboard Professional Bill West's Avatar
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    Seems to me....

    that this guy has found a few loopholes in the law and is pushing it to the limit. I think when professions try to pass laws that restrict and only favor them selves they open the flood gate for this kind of stuff. If the law is not real specific maybe they should be written over and address these issues. I am not saying he is right or wrong but simply saying maybe the problem is the way the laws are written.
    I think in the USA a lot of laws are not written in public interest but in the interest of companies and professions, all the while espousing their concern for the public welfare.
    I am amazed that he has buffaloed the powers at be and the attorneys to the point of utter frustration.
    I have yet to read of any complants from his thousands of customers. Have there been any?
    Just my take on it.:)

  24. #124
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod
    Hey, this thread is actually getting funny. You Canadian optometrists have a better sense of humor than we do in the states. I think its because you are allowed to park in handicapped spots, and we're not.
    lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill West
    that this guy has found a few loopholes in the law and is pushing it to the limit. I think when professions try to pass laws that restrict and only favor them selves they open the flood gate for this kind of stuff. If the law is not real specific maybe they should be written over and address these issues. I am not saying he is right or wrong but simply saying maybe the problem is the way the laws are written.
    I think in the USA a lot of laws are not written in public interest but in the interest of companies and professions, all the while espousing their concern for the public welfare.
    I am amazed that he has buffaloed the powers at be and the attorneys to the point of utter frustration.
    I have yet to read of any complants from his thousands of customers. Have there been any?
    Just my take on it.:)
    This guy Burgez is a menace and if the laws need to be rewritten their are ways of doing that without breaking the law. In the US you are right our laws are written to benifit the good of companies and large lobbying groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibur
    As for adding a signature line to 'man up'? Give me a break. I don't need you to tell me what to do on this board. I usually don't mud-wrestle with swine, but I'll make an exception with you.
    I would ask that you act professionally towards me, after all we are discussing a point of view. You underestimated the fact that you could not behave in an underhanded manner, your actions and your tone show malace towards me for expressing my point of view. If it was you that needed to man up, then MAN UP. The swine comment shows that you don't have the intellect to discuss your point of view with me, so I think it's kind of funny that you are backed into a intellectual corner by a pig, it says a lot about you.
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  25. #125
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    Excaliber, you are most disapointing. This is a pressing issue, and the ramifications will change the face of vision care in North America for many years, impacting the scope of practice of opticians and optometrists, and the delivery of vision-care services to the public whom we serve. Having an optometrist resorting to name-calling in a forum read by many members of that same public is embarrasing and uncalled for. I recognize Harry certainly doesn't need me to "defend" him, but you are out of line.

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