Shamir (Genesis) lens cross-branding?

[xiaowei]

Shamir = Nika = Schulz = Galileo = Signet Armorlite???

Hi,

I recently bought through a local german optician a pair of PALs at a very good price. I like the glasses and the lens design pretty much, even compared two my recent much more expensive Zeiss Individuals, and given the fact that the add was now increased from +1.50 to +2.00.

The optician says he bought the glasses from the german maker Nika Optics

www.nika.de

however, I was able to look up the markings and the markings are exactly the same as given by Shamir for the “Genesis Superlite 1.60” on

http://www.shamir.co.il/tables1.asp?id=3

I see the “shrunken” diamond with the curved edges on the temporal side and the three digit add and the same diamond with a large H below it on the nasal side.

More interestingly, I you look up some european catalogues on PAL markings, you find the very same lens is/was also sold at the name “Galileo Response Orgal 1.6”, see

http://www.roesener.com/pdf/gravuren.pdf

on page 17 and that a whole bunch of Shamir (marked) lenses are sold by a company called Schulz but under completely different names for the differing designs and materials (see the above document on pgs 14++)

Adding more to the confusion, it seems that my glasses were/are also sold by Signet Armorlite in Germany/Europe as “Response Orgal 1.6”!, see here

http://www.aoi-berlin.de/Mitglieder/Gravuren%20GL.pdf

on page 17, which also has other lenses with the varying Shamir markings!

The german Signet Armorlite site even claims

http://www.signet-armorlite.de/precise.html

that the the PRECISE lens which seems also to be known in the USA is actually based on the development of the RESPONSE (i.e. the Genesis!?) lens.

Pretty confusing, eh? It seems that Shamir itself is not known here in Germany/Europe, but maybe that they sold a license for their designs to companies here (Or even the other way round??).

Such an exchange seems to happen with the “Evolis”, which might either be a unique lens of the german Rupp+Hubrach http://www.rh-lenses.com/index_com.php or from BBGR http://www.bbgr.com/ . (BBGR seems also to sell the “Ysis” glasses in some countries, but in that case they say it´s originally from Rupp+Hubrach!)

At least it appears that there is a lot of cross-branding/cross-marketing going on when you are not going for the premium glasses of the large companies!

So, did I really get Shamir Genesis glasses? Are those marking internationally always unique?

Sincerely

Joachim

[drk]

Yikes, you must be an investigative reporter or a patent attorney! Great research.

I don't know for sure, but I've heard that Shamir's initial purpose was to design progressives for manufacturers...sort of a think-tank. Now, they've expanded into manufacturing.

Maybe they now sell not only the design service, but also the lens molds?

[Robert Martellaro]

Maybe they now sell not only the design service, but also the lens molds?

When I first starting using Shamir, I was told that they were one of only four PAL mold manufacturers in the world.

Regards,

[Grubendol]

I've heard the same on Shamir, that they design the molds for many of the big lines out there, globally.

[xiaowei]

Yikes, you must be an investigative reporter or a patent attorney! Great research.

No, I´m actually one of those usually over critical, hard to fit etc. engineer/physicist who even works in the optical field (but no eyeglasses, but studied the optics behind PALs and now carry the 3rd pair myself).

XW (Joachim)

[Chris Ryser]

Maybe they now sell not only the design service, but also the lens molds?

Shamir is and has been one of the largest and most important progressive mold manufacturer forever. Just about every lens manufacturer is their customer for these items, and that includes the large corporations.

[hipoptical]

Shamir is and has been one of the largest and most important progressive mold manufacturer forever. Just about every lens manufacturer is their customer for these items, and that includes the large corporations.

I've known this for years, but never knew exactly what it all meant until the past 2-3 years. I no longer wonder why EVERYONE says that their lens is just like the Comfort... it is the same mold design with different markings. Look at the information on the Comfort vs. Genesis vs. Optical Dynamics (molds by Shamir)
Joachim- the answer is the obvious: same lenses, different names.

[Chris Ryser]

Look at the information on the Comfort vs. Genesis vs. Optical Dynamics (molds by Shamir)
Joachim- the answer is the obvious: same lenses, different names.

Thank you hipoptical..............what I have been saying for last few years starts to sink in. These lenses are at least basically all the same and here comes the new punch...............

On another thread in the general forum somebody writes about $ 99.00 progressives at Sears.

There are now progressives available right out of China and I bet you the price must be lower.

Furthermore don't kid yourself, they can copy the curves and sell the copy for a fraction of the large corporations prices who also have them made in the far east.

[Darryl Meister]

Shamir is and has been one of the largest and most important progressive mold manufacturer forever. Just about every lens manufacturer is their customer for these items, and that includes the large corporations.

You need to do a little more homework before making such wild and unfounded claims in a public forum. Carl Zeiss Vision and Essilor, currently the two largest lens manufacturers in the world, design their own progressive lens molds. Further, these two companies have been designing progressive lenses and establishing IP in the progressive lens field long before Shamir ever released their first progressive. While Shamir may be an OEM mold supplier for smaller lens companies, who may find it more economical to outsource design work rather than investing in their own lens design groups, this certainly isn't true of the "large corporations."

[Pete Hanlin]

I would echo Darryl's comments from the Essilor side. It is beyond irresponsible to suggest that Shamir designs lenses or makes molds for "the larger manufacturers."

Companies like Zeiss, Sola, Essilor were making progressive lenses long before Shamir arrived on the scene, and I can claim unequivocably that Shamir has had absolutely zero involvement with Essilor on any Varilux or Essilor designed PAL.

As Darryl noted, my understanding is Shamir has designed PALs for some of the smaller PAL manufacturers- the larger ones (including Essilor and Carl Zeiss Vision) have their own design and mold manufacturing capacities.

Best regards,
Pete Hanlin
Training & Development Manager
Essilor of America Lens Group

[Chris Ryser]

The corporate knights of the arch competitors have been sent out in in full armour and in allied forces to defend their corporate positions.

There were no names mentioned but "large corporations" which must have triggered the rebuke from Zeiss and Essilor.

The matter has now been clarified and we must now behave and not make any more statements that are "beyond irresponsible to suggest that ........."

:finger:

[Darryl Meister]

There were no names mentioned but "large corporations" which must have triggered the rebuke from Zeiss and Essilor.

So, you're suggesting that I simply misunderstood you, and that you're not deliberately trying to pass blatantly false rumors off as fact here? Then what "large corporations" were you referring to in your statement concerning "just about every lens manufacturer?"

[hipoptical]

Some people are in need of a serioous chill pill....
We all know the TRUTH, and no amount of propaganda will offset that. :D Even if the claims from the Evil Empire and Zeiss are true, it does nothing to dispell the fact that other lenses can be (and are) made to mimic the widely used popular designs... which means that high price does not equate necessarily to HIGHER quality. Sometimes it is just higher price. No amount of propaganda can overcome that fact. In saying that... not to defend Zeiss, but I've never heard "This lens is just like the Gradal Top" (or any other Zeiss or Sola lens, for that matter). Something to think about...

[Darryl Meister]

We all know the TRUTH

Honestly, after reading some of these other responses, I don't necessarily agree with this statement.

it does nothing to dispell the fact that other lenses can be (and are) made to mimic the widely used popular designs...

I do agree with this one. But suggesting that Shamir designed a lens to "mimic" a popular selling progressive lens, like Varilux Comfort or AO Compact, is very different from saying that Shamir designed the original Varilux Comfort or AO Compact.

And I'm not suggesting that Shamir does or does not "mimic" popular progressive lens designs or provide OEM progressive lens designs for smaller companies like Signet Armorlite. I'm simply stating that they don't design progressive lenses for the larger lens manufacturers, which was Chris's flagrantly inaccurate assertion.

[Chris Ryser]

................. is very different from saying that Shamir designed the original Varilux Comfort or AO Compact.
........................., which was Chris's flagrantly inaccurate assertion.

I don't think having said that Shamir has designed any of the original Varilux Comfort nor AO Compact, I know better than that.

I believe that I said that Shamir has made molds, (meaning = according to the designs given to them), forever,

I even believe that was the first thing they ever did, was making glass molds for other optical companies and then evolved to other activities. :hammer:

[Darryl Meister]

I don't think having said that Shamir has designed any of the original Varilux Comfort nor AO Compact, I know better than that.

But I didn't state that you had.

[thep]

Just a comment, but it seems to me that with Shamir having one of the best progressive lens designs on the market... Creation... and the ONLY company that discontinues old designs when they make improvements; why would they need to "mimic" anything?

[hipoptical]

Just a comment, but it seems to me that with Shamir having one of the best progressive lens designs on the market... Creation... and the ONLY company that discontinues old designs when they make improvements; why would they need to "mimic" anything?

To sell to anyone wanting to "knock-off" the competition. ;)

[For-Life]

Just a comment, but it seems to me that with Shamir having one of the best progressive lens designs on the market... Creation... and the ONLY company that discontinues old designs when they make improvements; why would they need to "mimic" anything?

and we say only the big companies brainwash us.

[vikramg]

When Dr Sheedy puts Shamir Genesis as the top progressive in his 2006 survey, it is not surprising to find genuinely concerned suppliers giving you Genesis in disguise .


http://www.optometry.osu.edu/research/coor/4059.cfm

So, did I really get Shamir Genesis glasses? Are those marking internationally always unique?

Joachim after reading the above report you sure wont have any reason to complain .

[Ory]

Keep in mind that designing a lens that "mimics" another is a far cry from the real thing. Some generic medications are similar to the name brands (they have the same active ingredient but different vehicle); some work great and some are not so useful.

Same is true of lens options. I think we can all name one or two lenses that work well as a substitute but in a lower price bracket. There are also some that are really worth the price premium.

[thep]

Essilor comes to mind with the 2 separate lines of progressives
Can't get a Comfort... use a Natural
Can't get a Panamic..Use Ovation
Can't get an Elipse..use a Small Fit
The reps say these lenses are "very similar" in design
Made by the same company
What's the point? Besides the old contract issue?

[Fezz]

Essilor comes to mind with the 2 separate lines of progressives
Can't get a Comfort... use a Natural
Can't get a Panamic..Use Ovation
Can't get an Elipse..use a Small Fit
The reps say these lenses are "very similar" in design
Made by the same company
What's the point? Besides the old contract issue?

I don't get it either. I have stopped using Essilor products. All of the progressive options, "same" but "different" lenses. Some labs can not make this prog, but still allowed to make the other 18 or whatever same progressives that they make. Give me a break. I can remember trying to promote better product and a particular name brand lens. I would quote price for said prog and some patients would shop around. When I got enough of them calling me or stopping back and raking me over the coals because they could get a lens from the same company for much less at the WalcostcoBjs of the world, I bagged that philosophy. It is very hard to explain to a patient/customer how much better product A is from B when they find out that both are made by the same company, just much different price points! UGH........spare me. Brainwashing, advertising, hocus pocus...its all the same.
Sorry for the rant....It just really irks me.

ok...I feel better now.

Fezz
:cheers:

[hipoptical]

I completely agree with Fezz....
Ory, I think you're about a 1/2 bubble off plum... apples and oranges... good point, wrong subject... in other words, I don't agree. I realize a copy is a copy, and not the original, but it is a copy. If the copy is good enough, then it is not possible for the average "Joe" to distinguish the copy from the original. Joe is wearing the copy and is PERFECTLY happy. If people still fit Adaptars, VIPs, XLs, and other older lens designs with success, then how can one say that a copy is not as good as an original. If you patent something, I cannot duplicate it, but you have to publish all your data to prevent me from copying it. I can learn from your data and make my own product. When your patent runs out, I can copy the design exactly.

[vikramg]

Keep in mind that designing a lens that "mimics" another is a far cry from the real thing.

Ory , I do not think the above is a case of mimicking progressive designs.

Shamir Genesis 1.61 seems to be have been purchased by other companies and sold as their own branded product .

But the invisible markings put in by Shamir could not be hidden !!!

Companies would do this for newer indices when volumes are low and production cost high .

I recently bought through a local german optician a pair of PALs at a very good price. I like the glasses and the lens design pretty much, even compared two my recent much more expensive Zeiss Individuals, and given the fact that the add was now increased from +1.50 to +2.00.

Joachim , would you have rather have paid much higher price, for a bigger branded product , with lessor visual comfort , just to have the satisfaction of having some unique markings ?

I can guess , the optician did not even try and sell you this product as a Shamir lens, in the first place.
And yes Mika is a lens supplier sourcing a lot of their lenses from Swisslens , Hongkong .