You are in for a surprise with new Kappa!
You are in for a surprise with new Kappa!
Beertv, you know the job and are proud of doing it correct. Your opinion is very valuable. I agree with you in all what you say in your post. These machines are extremely accurate and do exactly what you program them to do and salesman explote this advantages.I have made many many three piece mounts using a lot of different equipment. I should mention I am the kind of optician that refuses to let any pair of glasses go out of our finishing lab that is not perfect in every way.
Let suppose you have one of this equipments and it can be connected to a database where you store all the informantion about the shape (trace) position of holes, etc. of a particular job or frame. Perfect.
But, the real problem is not how to do the holes but where to do them.
If the frames manufacturer you mostly work with provides the information to fill the data in the database, this is a piece of cake. I would recomment you to buy one of this equipments.
But if you work with many different model of different quality from many manufactures all over the world, chances are that most of the time you have to figure out the data yourself because not many manufactures have it available.
Here comes our real problem. The source for this data is a "Demolens". A piece of cheap plastic that is made with the purpose of demostrate how does the frame with lenses look like. That is all. No precision, no consistensy, etc.
If this is the case (and is mine), you will spend a lot of time figuring which is the exact position of the holes. Probably you would need to run a trial lens first to make sure the data you collected is corrects and then do the expensive lens.
For instance, most demolens has the hole larger that what is needed because this way is easy to compensate any displacement of the holes or bridge defect since it let you enought play to align the demolenses and the tight the nuts very hard. The lens is aligned but the screw is not in the center of the hole. If you copy this holes position to the lens you are in trouble.
Also it is important the experience of the worker.
Beertv, Has you developed a method to collect the data from a demolens? Would you mind sharing it?
I read every post about three piece mounts, has learned alot but stil this type of frames are my main headache.
Once a salesman sayd to me. With my machine you can hire a guy that use to work for McDonald making hamberger and in a few days he will be doing the job. !!!! This is what a call a optimistic person !!!!!
But this wise person said
Originally Posted by rsandr
The Kappa ctd has the built in digital camera so you can put the projected holes directly over the cull lenses and see them in real time superimposed on the demo lens....it works very nicely.No more measuring.
This machine is very expensive, but worth every penny if you do a lot of drilling.
IME the Sillouettes and most of the copies have hole diameter 1.4mm and a separation of 3mm.
The weco 450 we use to glaze them makes them so easy they are a joy to glaze I would happily do them all day.
I could never get them perfectly straight drilling by hand, and if you make the holes slightly too big forget it.
Some of the cheaper models need to have the bushes replaced as they are too stiff.
I think many of you have had some very good points, and I think we are all on the same page as far as wanting to provide the best quality to our patients that we can. It is after all what will make them want to come back to us. Or at least we hope so, but that is another topic. :D
A lot of the new systems like the Kappa and the Briot Accel have a digital camera built in, this is the best way I think to capture the hole locations of a demo lens. I take a frame and make sure the demo lens is as well aligned in the frame as possible. Then I but it in my lensometer and make my 3 dots, then I unmount my demo lens and put it into my Accel blocker, and take a picture of it. I then get the shape and it will find my 3 dots and layout the axis. I can tweak this if I need to. Then it asks me for the bridge size, and then displays the job on the screen. Now as for hole locations, it will automatically locate the holes for me when the photo is taken. I don't normally leave it at this, I will figure what size hole I need, (bushings=1.4 or 2.0 in most cases, and or screw size I will mic with a caliper and then input that size) then I look at the hole location screen and see if the hole locations are even to the edge of the lens and on the right elevation. This is more of a small tweak really. If this is a frame I may run again I will save the job and it will be there next time I need it. If I need another size for the same job I can still pull this job and change the size and keep the holes in the same relative position. Input the patient data and I am good to run the job.
I will say no one system is perfect and I think they all have the good and bad points to each. However, I think if you go with any of the higher end units you are really going to make your life a lot simpler, and the quality is really amazing.The end result is less work on your part and the patient gets a great pair of glasses.
excelent idea, but that only makes the finished job as well set up as the display lenses. With a Silhouette, thas going to be pretty good, but with some other brands of thats going to be pretty dire
beertv: Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
I agree with QDO1 when he say
I deal with many different frames (Manufactures and models) and a few of them are of high quality as the Sillouete so lets talk about frame with a cetain amount of defects. The ones that most people do not detect and do have to be taken in consideration when drilling the hole.
I am going to quote myself in what is one of the problems i have to deal with.
¿How can we be sure that the screw is in de center of the quite large hole in the demolens? The digital camera method assumes that it is in the center of the demolens hole. Maybe using a conic metalic space between the demolens and the nut to force the scew to center in the hole.
But now the demolens is not aligned. Do you adjust the frame? i mean bend it if needed? or compesate it in the hole position.
I don't think you would like my answer but here it goes.
I guess my first reaction is; can you get a pattern? Can you not get the hole locations from your frame rep or manufacturer? To be honest, if I had the problem that you are talking about and could not get the info from the company or rep, I would not sell the frame. I sell all kinds of frames, some cheap some very expensive. But I can tell you I would not sell any frame that I had problems like you are describing. If you have to figure out where the center of the hole is, due to the hole being so big, and you can't get help from the company, then just do the best you can until you sell them all off and don't buy any more of them. I mean you can find cheap frames that are really made well, and there are some expensive frames that I will not sell due to the some problem in mounting lenses in them. If I don't like the way a frame is made in some way, meaning hard to mount or adjust or lends its self to breaking, I do not sell them. There are just too many really nice frames on the market that have great shapes, colors and styles that are great to work with. One example, I will not sell any frame that has a single screw mount where the edge of the frame has to bind the lens to keep it from moving, these just suck. They eventually do move and get loose and they break. I will not sell them. I find other frames to sell instead. I had 4 lines of frames that were like Silhouettes, and all at different price points, and after 2 years we took all of them out except the Silhouettes. People just would not buy the other frames after trying on the Silhouettes. I realize it may be my area, my market, but this was the case. We sell 7 to 10 Silhouettes a week, and every single one of them will be with a high end AR.
If your working some place that just sends you a box of frames and you have no say as to what they sell, then you are just screwed. You have only two ways to go, best guess on making them or find a new place to work. I would think that best guess on hole location and then make a sample lens or two would be the only way to go.
beertv. Thanks for you comments. We are in Central America in a poor country and to be able to sell frames at good price, most of the time we buy closeouts.
That is why i have do deal with so many problems. You have to adjust to the market needs or you are out of bussiness.
I appeciate you comment and has learned a few thinks and also some new ideas has come that i will try to see if a procedure can be created to deal with this type of frames.
Once i heard that "Good procedures are what make a regular person perform in a excellent way". Let keep looking for a easier way to do it.
Sorry, I am translating form spanish.
Thanks
Thank you for the information. That explains a lot. If there is anything I can do to help you please feel free to email me anytime. donmildrum@yahoo.com
If I can help you get frames on close out or anything I would be happy to help there as well.
I was thinking about your problem over the weekend, and I think I have an idea for you to try. If you can cut a sample lens to the proper size, but do not drill it, then you could line the lens up with the frame holes and carefully mark the center of the hole. Then you could use this as a template for when you cut the real lens. All that would be left would be to drill the hole to the size of the screw but at least you would know where the hole should be started.
I hope that helps a little.
Don
Are all the bushings for the rimless frames the same diameter? Are there any bushings that are bigger to help if the hole drilled is too large? Any helpful solutions to a larger hole that causes a sloppy fitting lens. Thanks for your help in advance.
as far as the Silhouettes, there are two sizes that I've seen, one is the standard two pin and one is a larger bushing for the titan colors (zyl temples) but it won't fit anything but the zyl pins. There isn't much else, other than sending it back to your lab and having them re-do it for you. I find sending a chassis is sometimes helpful.
The standard plugs for the silhouette minimal art and translucent collections require a 1.4mm hole...the plugs are a perfect fit. If they are sloppy, chances are the holes may be drilled too large.....which means a redo.
I think they have another size bushings that will fit a larger hole!
The question is are they going to hold the min art chassies!?
As stated the holes should be 1.4mm.
You can however get bushings which are 1.5mm, some of the cheaper copies have larger stiffer bushes which can help you out in an emergency.
We use the Silhouette Lab in Washington state for these and they order our frames. Contact your Silhouette rep. Great work. Good turnaround with lenses only's drilled accurately when needed.
Great idea! I used this a lot back in the mid-eighties when the Elizabeth Arden and Tura rimlees and facet frames were BIG(and I mean big in size too!). You can use the demo lens as your guide and put it over the real lens, use a Lumocolor marker, or toothpick end to "dot" the lens real lens thru the holes in the demo. Good luck
Fezz
:cheers:
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