Who does unlimited warranties on AR??
We use labs that will give us 2 times in 2 years because we're a good account, but most offer 1 time in 2 years or 1 time in 1 year on basic AR. Is there something we're missing?? I've heard a couple of wholesalers here tell consumers get the unlimited AR. Is there really such an animal? And even if there is why would you encourage people to get it?:finger:
Days where my gratitude exceed my expectations are very good days!
With Crizal I get it as many times as I want in two years. Best warranty have heard
Hoya Super Hi Vision and Crizal both offer unlimited for two years for normal scratching. Abuse or puppy chews aren't covered. The coatings are so good I almost never have to use it.
Ok I understand what's available. Let me rephrase a little. Why would you sell an AR with unlimited warranties. I have a friend that has a nice shop who is pushing 32% redos because he sells and "unlimited warranty". He complains because his margins are so thin. Let's see, 1 out 0f every 3 people your dispensers handle is a remake. 1 out of every 3 jobs that goes through your lab is a remake. Is that really the way to run a profitable business? Why would you do that to yourselves? And why would wholesalers encourage you to do business like that? I don't get it!
Days where my gratitude exceed my expectations are very good days!
Nikon has the best warranty, one customer came to get one lense (pal) with a/r changed, Nikon gave a pair of lenses with no extra charge.
Nikon is also the best a/r coating( durable), one has to leave the lense in a/r stripper overnight to get it off, with Crizal or anything else the coating will go off in half a minute or so.
I don't work for Nikon.
I started a response to this thread, then when finally ready to submit my long-winded tirade against warranty abuse, found that i was not logged in, and lost the entire rant I had just painstakingly written (screamed out in text was really more like it).Originally Posted by Framebender
The gist of my tangent that I'm really compelled to convey here is simple:
When we offer an unconditional warranty, no-matter-what guarantee, we are accomplishing nothing more than reducing the perceived value of our product to nothing more than scrap that can and will be replaced without charge, and no longer requires even a modest amount of care , respect, nor attention.
I feel like beating my head against a wall on this subject, and perhaps I really am when i get involved in this discussion with other opticians.
Why are we not allowed to make a reasonable and honest living like the rest of the tradespeople do? Why, because we will not allow ourselves this modest privledge.
Anyone want me to continue????? Didn't think so. I find my fellow opticians, for the most part, don't like to hear the blunt truth.
:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:
There are many coatings that don't want to strip off very easy. But if you are leaving them in the stripper (I assume hydroflouric acid), it might be damaging the hard coat as well. Better to redo a job than just the AR if the coating is that good.
I never understood this as well. But think for a minute about the lab who invested all that money in the equipment and the people to redo that coating.
My Essilor Rep told me that they don't like to publish this but Alize has a "lifetime" warranty. Of course it will probably be like the "lifetime" warranty flexon and a few other materials have had. Where the mfg eventually denies haveing ever said this.
Chip
Therefore the retailers would claim..................
In the 1970's when being in the frame wholesale we lost just about all sales on childrens frames because American Optical introduced an unlimited warranty on their childrens frames.
Subsequent discussions with our opticians and oprometrist customers revealed that they were well aware that kids were rough on frames and had lots of breakages. Parens would understand that too.
Therefore the retailers would claim a new frame from AO under their warranty and sell it to the patients and full retail price.
What is happening these days, as described in this thread is as bad or even worse than my above mentioned sample.
To give extended warranties, or even unlimited warranties in a field that is made with precision optics and the treatment of the warranted product by the consumer can not be controlled in any way whatsoever, is totally crazy.
It looks like a sign of bad times or an oversupply of coating labs that compete to outdo each other, to capture a market niche, not with quality products but with unlimited re-dos.
It also eliminates the art of selling.............a patient can easily be talked into purchasing an item that has an unlimited warranty.
On top of it you are all paying for such warranties............because in order to cover the warranty you have to pay a heavily inflated purchase price.
Yes!! This is exactly. . .
what I was trying to find out! I sat down last night and figured out that my friends unlimited warranty policy is costing him about $250.00 a week just in salaries.
I was shocked because I didn't realize anyone still did business like that. We tell our clients 1 time within 2 years for normal wear and tear. If the dog chews them or they get floated across the concrete that doesn't count as normal wear and tear. When they cash their warranty we have a stamp that says, "1 time remake". The client must initial this before the job is processed. I had a lady argue yesterday that she had bought "insurance" and she wanted to use it because she fell and her glasses hit a rock and gouged up real good. I explained to her that we didn't sell insurance and that the mfg did not participate in her accident. Just like if she drove her pretty T-Bird out of our parking lot and got hit Ford was not going to give her a new car. Insurance comes from insurance agents and warranties come from mfg. Because the job was less than 2 months old I allowed her to replace the lenses at 50% of retail, but I would never have accepted this as a warranty item. Our warranty work hovers around 2%.
I know that if I was a wholesale lab I would hate my friend knowing that 1 in every 3 jobs is a zero dollar invoice. I know that there are some large and small lab owners on here and I would be interested on their take of this situation. I'm also interested in how other offices handle this.
You folks really are the best!! I hope you're all having fun and making money!!
:cheers:
Last edited by Framebender; 07-28-2006 at 07:32 AM.
Days where my gratitude exceed my expectations are very good days!
I have worked with labs that pay sticker price for a lens blank. Then we would put the blank through a very expensive process to turn it into a lens. Then sent it out to a coating lab for A/R. We would sell that product for much less that the #1 product. The producers of the #1 product molds their own lenses. They do have to grind them. They do their own A/Rs in house. (I know they invested in the equipment). They whole sell this product for a third more than mine. What is the cheapest stock lens you have been offered? Can you imagine buying a progressive lens blank for that? That is MORE than it cost them in the third world manufacturing plants that they own.
I call on customers (retailers) that tell me "they give me free unlimited remakes".
That's why I encourage consumers on this board to seek out the unlimited remakes and make regular use of them. I am just being sarcastic, mostly. I know for every consumer that sees that on this board, there are many of you guys seeing it.
[
When we offer an unconditional warranty, no-matter-what guarantee, we are accomplishing nothing more than reducing the perceived value of our product to nothing more than scrap that can and will be replaced without charge, and no longer requires even a modest amount of care , respect, nor attention.
Cindy, I totally agree with you.
:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:[/QUOTE]
We have a written warranty for those that ask and Medicare patients. It covers frame damage and lens replacements in certain situations. Still I tell everyone at dispense care and upkeep, come in every so often for checkups etc. I also say if anything happens then give me a call and I will fix it. I have better frames and lenses so if titanium frame is eroding after 3 or 4 months I am calling that a manufacturing problem, dito on if the temple breaks after a few months. Just because I know the A/R has an unlimited warranty I do not put that out there, I still want the glasses to be cared for not "Oh well I will just have the lenses replaced if I can't take care of them." After evaluating each case then I use whatever tools I have for the patient to fix that problem the best way possible. We do not have a lot of re dos and we only offer a higer tier A/R. No in house lab either, if this helps at all. :)
Our store gives an unlimited 2 year warranty. We get very low returns for lenses. If your friend is pushing 32 percent redos then it is best to see what the redos are on. I would argue that if he is selling basic AR that may be the answer to his problem. Because we see it as a 32 percent redo rate, but the consumers see it as a 32 percent unsatisfaction rate.
If one in three jobs in the lab is a freebee AR replacement, what I have been saying is true: AR ain't ready for the general public. True with "proper care" it can last a while but the general public ain't gonna give it proper care.
If we are to do "truth in advertising and sales" (a horrifying thought) we must tell the public when they buy it, that it last only 2 years max.
Chip
O.K. I'm ready for the opposing arguments.
The only reason for a 'titanium' frame to be eroding is if there are other metals present in the alloy or in the finish of the frame. This version of 'titanium' should never be presented nor sold with a claim that it possesses the inherent properties and non-reactive qualities of pure titanium. It may be stronger and lighter than regular frame alloy, but the main reason clients purchase titanium is to eliminate the potential for skin reactions and premature frame deterioration. I have had some frame lines in the shop in the past where the manufacturer./ supplier is rather evasive about the composition of the materials, and when this is the case I present these frames with a full disclaimer and the client is free to make their own purchase decision based on this information. I also advise that there is NO warranty nor guarantee should it produce said reaction or surface deterioration. It is not the fault of the client, nor is it a manufacturing problem should this occur. That's just the way it is with these types of metals.
Just my 2 cents.:cheers:
My big beef with "titanium" frames is that shure the frame may be titanium but the finish is not. So if a patient picks a "shiny" finished frame that has titanium stamped all over the demo lens I will warranty replace the frame if he has problems in a short amount of time. Doesn't happen vary often but just recently and it was stuck in my head. :bbg:
AR is ready for the general public, just most of it is not. If you stick with Teflon, Crizal, HCC, Carat or Super Hi it will last and it will last at least two years. The lenses will hardly even have a scratch on the lenses either.
But I do not care how much some of you tell me, not all AR is equal, and when we are cheap and offer a cheap product to our clients it will not last.
Also, becareful with AR on Poly. I have been happy with Crizal on Airwear, but many other combinations do not work.
Chip: Speaking as a lab guy. 1 in 3 jobs in the labs are most definitely NOT AR warranty replacement. Not anywhere close to that. In this thread, there was mention of ONE optician who has this ratio based on a combination of his business practices and his choice of vendor. To make a leap from that one out of context example to a generalization that all AR coats are not-ready-for-prime-time is completely unfounded.
RT
I don't understand where people get this idea that AR makes their lenses more fragile? AR only makes any defects or dirt/oil more apparent due to the increase in transmission. If you removed the AR you just wouldn't see them as easily and the defects or would still be there. AR actually makes lenses more scratch resistant (increase in Bayer ratio) and easier to clean (with hydro). I hear comments about AR not being ready for the people but there is nothing wrong with the coating itself. What is wrong is that the people who buy it need to be better educated as to what they are paying for. And who's job is that???
I think that warranties are way out of control in this industry. Not too many other business can you wear and tear a product and bring it back and expect the store to happily give you a new one.
We offer a one year, one time replacement on frames and lenses for defects or scratches/AR, unless abused, used and neglected. I am always amazed about the people who have no problem telling you how there oversize rear end found the missing glasses laying helplessly on the bed, and balk when you tell them that the frame is not covered because..IT IS NOT DEFECTIVE! Its about time people take resonsibility for there mistakes.
The lab that I do most of my work thru has a 2 year unlimited replacement on the AR., for there premium AR. On a RARE occasion, I will replace a pair of lenses after the original year to a really good customer. They are always very appreciatve.
Of course the labs build these warranties into the pricing and have basically created the warranty monster.
Fezz
:cheers:
[quote=Fezz;151183]I think that warranties are way out of control in this industry. Not too many other business can you wear and tear a product and bring it back and expect the store to happily give you a new one.
Warranties are a marketing ploy I use it all the time it is way of securing faith in my business. The way I look at it, why would I not give a warranty on a product that I do not stand behind. I do not sell two for one or low discount eyewear I SELL THE BEST. So therefore I give the best warranty my percentage of replacement is one percent.
We use alot of Alize as well as Crizal and even some Super Hi Vision. Even though they have this unlimited warranty we only tell our patients they have a one time in one year warranty.
Now from there the actual warranty allows us to be a hero to they people who may be only a month or two out of their warranty or those really good customers that have been with you forever and you want them to feel "special".
THis keeps our redos down, our sales up, as well as keeps us from upsetting a patient to the point of losing them.
MOJO :cheers:
I find it really questionable when you tell the patient that the warranty is less than it actually is. If the lab or manufacturer gives a warranty on the coating then you should give the patient that warranty. Not using the lab's warranty to ensure your sales stay up? No thanks!
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