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Thread: Shamir Creation: My New Favourite!

  1. #1
    Master OptiBoarder optigrrl's Avatar
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    Shamir Creation: My New Favourite!

    Had this engineer come in and order bifocals, then call 5 days later and wants a progressive because his doctor told him he had to have it - this guy has never worn anything BUT ft bifocals.

    He is something like a +4.50 -2.25 cyl with a +2.50 add.

    Oh - and he couldn't pick them up, we had to mail them out of state. No chance to adjust or fit or train or anything.

    We'd never tried the Creation but after the dog-and-pony our rep just gave us we decided to throw it to the lions and see what happened.

    What the heck - this was a refund in the making, right?

    Well, guess what: The guy actually liked them! Called to thank us! Said he put them on and that was it!

    So for the moment, the Shamir Creation is MY new favourite PAL!

    Anybody else try these out?

  2. #2
    Underemployed Genius Jacqui's Avatar
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    Ordered a pair for myself today. I'll see in a week or so how I like them.

  3. #3
    Master OptiBoarder optigrrl's Avatar
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    Can't wait to hear the verdict!

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Jubilee's Avatar
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    We have ordered 5 and dispensed 2 at the moment. So far everyone's reaction is immediate "WoW" and have had one particularly hard fit respond that these were the best lenses she has ever had. (Been wearing progressives for 15 years)

    It has recently became one of my favorites as well. I love the availability of it in 1.6 instead of the so many that are 1.67.

    I just wished the Piccolo and Creation would come out in trivex for drill mounts.

    Cassandra
    "Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland

  5. #5
    Allen Weatherby
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    Why 1.60

    Jubilee:

    Just curious what you love about 1.60 vs. 1.67

  6. #6
    Optical Clairvoyant OptiBoard Bronze Supporter Andrew Weiss's Avatar
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    I wish we had a Shamir rep . . .

    Can you folks tell me whether the Creation is a free-form individualized lens like the Autograph? The promo materials I've gotten suggest that it is, and just uses flatter base curves. We've had good results with the Autograph.

    And if the Creation is a free-form lens, have you found it to be preferable to the Autograph in most Rxs?

    With the Multigressiv off the market, I'm looking for a replacement lens for our patients who wear it. Maybe the Creation is the one.

    Thanks.
    Andrew

    "One must remember that at the end of the road, there is a path" --- Fortune Cookie

  7. #7
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Jubilee's Avatar
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    The Creation is a front curve aspheric freeform design. Compared to the Autograph that is back curve designed and personalized.

    I would put its competitor as being the Regular Physio. The Creation uses digital molds, has 6 base curves for better optimization. Their literature is that it is 20% more base curves for superior optical quality in a flatter and thinner lens(up to 40% flatter)

    My love affair with it and 1.6 isn't very technical based. This design uses the freeform optics that are gaining popularity in what appears to be a great design but is less expensive and something other than Essilor.

    by combining 1.6 with Freeform optics I am bridging the gap between the traditional designs and custom progressives. It is easier to get people to pay $xx for 1.6 rather than $xxx for 1.67. 1.6 is thin and light, not as much as 1.67..but also has less chromatic abberations and other issues.

    Cassandra
    "Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland

  8. #8
    Optical Clairvoyant OptiBoard Bronze Supporter Andrew Weiss's Avatar
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    Thanks Cassandra. It sounds really good. I wear a Genesis polarized for my sunglasses; maybe it's time to try the Creation 1.6 in my regulars.
    Andrew

    "One must remember that at the end of the road, there is a path" --- Fortune Cookie

  9. #9
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Jubilee's Avatar
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    Dispensed pairs 3 and 4 today..

    Both patients were smiling the moment they put them on. Both were impressed with how crisp everything was. I don't think it is just the .25 change in rx.

    Let us know whatcha think!
    "Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland

  10. #10
    One eye sees, the other feels OptiBoard Silver Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Weiss
    Can you folks tell me whether the Creation is a free-form individualized lens like the Autograph?
    From everything that I've read (most of it here) is that it's a traditional semi-finished PAL that's uses fully aspheric front curves, allowing the use of flatter base curves, something that Shamir has not had in the past, and that Rodenstock has incorporated in most, if not all of their recent designs.

    Regards,
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.



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    Redhot Jumper

    I am a lab owner in South Africa, supplying Shamir Creation lenses, I am receiving excellent feedback, that it is the best PAL on the market. Some comments suggest that it is easier to dispense than "free form' lenses

  12. #12
    Rising Star Bill Mahnke's Avatar
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    ..
    Last edited by Bill Mahnke; 07-29-2006 at 09:18 AM. Reason: Sorry incorrect posting

  13. #13
    Optical Educator
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    Shamir Creation

    Hello,

    It is my understanding that, by adding a digitally-designed front mold, with a free form back surface, Shamir has been successful at adding additional base curves, and flatter profies with advanced asphericity in the mold.

    There is no doubt, that the improved optics get the 'wow' factor when clients put them on.

    These new technologies are great tools for adding to our optical missions to help people recreate the best vision possible.

    : )

    Laurie

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    Thumbs up

    You must remember that Creation was designed with FREE FORM technology, however it is not a back surface design.

  15. #15
    Allen Weatherby
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    Shamir Creation, What is it?

    Laurie said:
    It is my understanding that, by adding a digitally-designed front mold, with a free form back surface, Shamir has been successful at adding additional base curves, and flatter profies with advanced asphericity in the mold.
    My understanding of the Creation lens by Shamir is that it is a cast front PAL design using traditional surfacing on the back. If I am wrong on my understanding of this please point me to the proof.

    Juno;

    To expand on your point, which Shamir seems to have successfully confused many opticians with the word freeform in connection with a traditional PAL design:

    This Creation lens uses molds for a creating the complex PAL surface on the front of the lens. (This is nothing new, as almost all pals are created in this manner). This Shamir lens is surfaced on the back side of the semi-finished lens like all other traditional PAL designs.

    I am not saying anything negative about the Shamir design, just trying to clarify that it is not optimized on an individual basis for each patient.

  16. #16
    Underemployed Genius Jacqui's Avatar
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    I don't care how they're made, I finally got mine and I love them !!!!!!! Only the third progressive that I've adapted to.

  17. #17
    Allen Weatherby
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    Sharmir Creation

    You may not care how they were made Jacqui but other viewer maybe interested.

    From my previous statement
    I am not saying anything negative about the Shamir design, just trying to clarify that it is not optimized on an individual basis for each patient.
    My point was to clairify that this is not what most people today consider as a freeform lens. The marketing in my opinion is attempting to elevate the Shamir Creation to the opticians mind as if it is a freeform lens.

    Spherical poly lenses are usually made using molds that are made with the same equipment that is used to make the molds for traditional poly progressive.

  18. #18
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    Shamir's Creation utilizes a "free-form" process in applying the progressive design to its production mold (eliminating replicating the design via a ceramic master/mechanical mold) along with extending its base curve availability for more accuracy when designing for a wide range of Rx's. True, it is not optimized per patient's specific measurements as their Autograph technology, but, it does fall under the umbrella of "freeform" technology which is, by the way, a registered trademark to Shamir Insight, Inc.(not a marketing scheme). AWTECH is correct in stating that most Labs are surfacing the Rx in a traditional manner (unless they have the capability to surface using "free-form" generated lathe cutters).
    I do not agree that polycarbonate's production process has anything to do with advancements in progressive lens technology....another topic....

  19. #19
    Optical Educator
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    freeform/direct surface/ceramic/digital to glass...

    Hello Again,

    Lens Geek is correct...the ability is there, and labs can opt to surface in a conventional way, or freeform/direct surface, if and when equipped to do so. It is my understanding that there are 5 or 6 labs in America/North America with this capability.

    One thing is clear...now that we have these new lens processing technologies, we, as a profession, need to be consistent with definitions, and this process is still in its early stages. Freeform is not a marketing hype, but a word used to describe an entirely different method of surfacing/grinding lenses. This method may be applied to SV or PALs...incorporating the actual design.

    It was not my intention to elevate the Creation to the Autograph level...it is not in that same arena...and not the topic of this thread.

    Great news is, we are having these conversations that help all of us better understand these new technologies.

    : )

    Laurie

  20. #20
    Allen Weatherby
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    Shamir Creation

    True, it is not optimized per patient's specific measurements as their Autograph technology, but, it does fall under the umbrella of "freeform" technology which is, by the way, a registered trademark to Shamir Insight, Inc.(not a marketing scheme).
    To clarify your point, above this Creation lens by Shamir may not fall under the umbrella of the trademarked word "Freeform". This trademark #2897745 " relates to lens "Software for the production of eyeglass lenses", not the equipment used to produce molds.

    From this discussion one can see how the use of the word freeform has mixed meanings and I think in the case of the Shamir Lens the marketing was designed to leave the impression that this lens is made in a manner that is more like an individualized lens created from a custom x,y,z data point file which it is not.

    As Laurie points out these types of discussions are good for the better understanding by all of us as to what is what in todays lenses.

    This Creation lens can be processed on freeform equipment, however such processing would require the point files to produce spherical curves like traditional surfacing. The only advantage this type of processing would offing is the ability to produce these spherical curves more accurately.

  21. #21
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Jubilee's Avatar
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    I will say that when talking to my lab and to my Shamir Rep, no one ever inferred that they were made to the truly customized freeform designs that the Ipseo, Autograph, Gradal Individual, or any of the other designs that truly creates a unique lens for every patient.

    I was told upfront that it was utilizing the technology to design cleaner digital molds for better optics, flatter lenses for better cosmetics, and a broader range of base curves to allow for more accuracy in the design variations based upon Base Curves and adds.

    The literature makes it very clear that this is a front sided design, an improvement upon the Genesis and of course other similarly designed lenses such as the regular Physio, but not the "ultimate in customization" that the Autograph is. It goes further to state the key differences such as the Autograph having a back sided design to eliminate the keyhole affect, and individualized optics based upon their rx, frame, postion of wear, etc..

    I have never thought the information to be misleading or trying to do so. The folder they have been handing out compares the two and includes a chart telling the key differences as well...

    Cassandra
    "Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland

  22. #22
    Allen Weatherby
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    Jubilee:
    Below is a quote from Laurie who has contacts with Shamir and is very knowledgeable about the products available in this industry.

    It is my understanding that, by adding a digitally-designed front mold, with a free form back surface, Shamir has been successful at adding additional base curves, and flatter profies with advanced asphericity in the mold.
    As you can see from her understanding of this lens initially there was confusion about the lens.

    I originally inquired about this lens when it was first introduced at the Vision Expo and the person in the booth that was answering my questions was not sure how the back surface was processed and they could not tell me if each lens was made with a different point file.

  23. #23
    Optical Educator
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    Shamir Creation

    Hi Awtech,

    Thanks for the quote (n-o-t!)

    : )

    Although I am an educational consultant for Shamir and l-o-v-e their lenses, I am not privy to new design launches in early stages.

    Now, (don't quote me) ; ) but I do remember that the Creation was brand new at expo east, and at that time had the capability of conventional surfacing or freeform surfacing.

    I would love to throw out our old system of classification of PAL designs (first generation, second generation, blah blah) and classify designs based on amount of surface astigmatic errors in the peripheral zone (ratio of optical error to full add power), zone 4 schematic, and technique of manufacture...

    : )

    Laurie
    Last edited by Laurie; 08-15-2006 at 09:28 AM.

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