A word to OD's

[markssunwear]

Doctors,
I have worked with a few doctors and would like to give a little advice from a Opticians point of view,
to help with sales if you the Doctor recomened something like Progresives/AR
Thiner lenes/Transitions/Edge Pollish/Scratch Coat/Uv/Tint/Ect. to your paitents
while they are in the exam room it will make our job's as the Optician easyer
becouse we can say that this is what the DOCTOR recomends,and 9 out of 10 we can upsale,The reason I bring this up is you (DOCTORS) words speak valume
like I said I have worked with a few doctors that did NOT help at all they just did the exam and sent them out to us and I would recomened something like AR
and the paitents say's the doctor did'nt say anything about that.well ok there goes that upsale......
__________________

[Jedi]

Why would they need Opticians working for them if they already sold the patient in the chair?

The OD I worked with was fantastic, she always deferred to me when it came to dispensing and treated me like a professional.

What you asked for above, was to be spoon fed from the OD. The problem for Opticians is sooner or later the patients won't care what the credentials are for the staff up front, because the OD is the one who said so. You're the professional, don't rely on anyone to "presell" for you, make your own judgements.

[markssunwear]

Yes, I know I'm the professional,They need a Optician as team work,That is NOT at all spoon fed,it just helps conferm the sale,and I do make my own judgements,and the patient don't know the credentials of a Optician anyways

Why would they need Opticians working for them if they already sold the patient in the chair?

The OD I worked with was fantastic, she always deferred to me when it came to dispensing and treated me like a professional.

What you asked for above, was to be spoon fed from the OD. The problem for Opticians is sooner or later the patients won't care what the credentials are for the staff up front, because the OD is the one who said so. You're the professional, don't rely on anyone to "presell" for you, make your own judgements.

[Chris Ryser]

...............to help with sales if you the Doctor recomened something like Progresives/ARThiner lenes/Transitions/Edge Pollish/Scratch Coat/Uv/Tint/Ect. to your paitentswhile they are in the exam room ........................................

Obviously you must want the profession of dispensing opticians to disapear into history.

Your doctor can at the same time also take all the other vital measurements and then have a "fashion consultant" show and sell the frames. By the way the doctors, with a few exceptions, have no formal training on the mechanical side of the opticians profession.side

Your idea works right into the hands and the goals of our major optical corporations who would like to reduce the opticians store to an "online sales and delivery kiosk" of their corporation owned laboratories.

[snowmonster]

I should have guessed markssunwear would get raked over the coals for saying such things with so many opticians present on this board. I'm sure markssunwear meant that he wants the whole opticianry field to crumble away into nothing.

Chris isn't even close to being right on his comment about OD's not receiving formal training on the mechanical side of what opticians do. We had two semesters of Ophthalmic Optics in school and I still remember nearly everything I learned in those classes. Sure, I didn't surface a bunch of lenses in the class, but I learned the mechanics and principles of it. I'm sure there are a lot of OD's that don't care about what happens in the lab, but such people are unlikely to be reading this bulletin board.

That aside, shouldn't most offices that have eye doctors and opticians working under the same roof function as a team? We preach the same message to the customer, and I know just as well as my optician what is going to make their glasses either look better and/or perform to their satisfaction. This is what markssunwear is talking about.

And before somebody chimes in here and starts ranting on and on about how I'm just recommending unnecessary options to boost gross charges for the office, I'm also the first one to tell the patient about the downsides of Transitions and other such add-on's.

The point is this - a lot of our customers are amazed when they realize that Featherwates (polycarb) aren't the thinnest material around, and if people want thinner, lighter and better-looking glasses, we can provide them.

Go ahead, blast away...

-Steve

[HarryChiling]

I have worked in a practice where the doctor recommends products and I must tell you that it does no work very well for two reasons.

1) People just assume you are the order taker and it kills anything you have to say about any of the products. You will hear alot of thats not why the doctor said I needed them, thats when the backpeddleing starts.

2) You would assume that the doctor in your office knows the availability of all the products. I have worked in offices where the opticians would offer blended bifocals in transition and wonder why we can't fill them. The doctor has even less time to constantly keep track of new lenses and discontinued lenses.

These are just two of the valid reasons as to why it won't work, not to mention it does take our profession back one step.

[snowmonster]

I guess our office is the exception to the rule then, because it does work, and my opticians never ***** up a storm about what I'm telling patients.

Is this what you propose then:

Patient: Hey Doc, what's an antireflective coating?
Doc: I don't know, ask Bill out front.
Patient: Hey Doc, how does a no-line bifocal work?
Doc: I don't know, ask Bill out front..
Patient: Hey Doc, I want Transitions, what do you think about those?
Doc: I don't know, ask Bill out front.
Patient: Hey Doc, do I have one or two eyes?
Doc: I don't know, ask Bill out front.

-Steve

[fjpod]

By the way the doctors, with a few exceptions, have no formal training on the mechanical side of the opticians profession.side

...by the way, You are incorrect.

[Framebender]

I agree with Mark! I've had several ODs shuffle through my office and I have explained to each of them before they start that I expect them to sell in the chair. Its something that may not work for everyone, but it works for us. For some reason people are more open in the chair and if the Dr recommends it then the Optician isn't seen to be pushing anything. Its a team effort and none of the Opticians I work with are insecure enough to think twice about the Dr doing this.

At the hand off the Dr says, "I talked to Ms Jones about Transitions, thinner lens materials and getting a good AR. The Optician here will help you select your frames and finalize your lens choices" It also helps when they step out and say, "Ms Jones is stable but doesn't have a current back up or a pair of polarized sunglasses. She also spends alot of her day on a computer and would benefit from a task specific pair of glasses with a good AR. Could you talk to her about what her choices are?"

Why would you not want that to happen? We've only had 1 baby Doc (new grad) that seemed to have a problem doing this and our sales went in the toilet the 2 months she worked with us. If we agree that we all want what is best for our clients then shouldn't we all be involved in helping them solve their visual needs?

The way I see it is the Dr presents the outline and we as Opticians fill in as much of that outline as we can. The fact of the matter is Ms Jones would benefit from transitions, thinner lenses and a good AR, but without the Drs recommendation we're just sales people swinging for the fence. When I worked for an OD people used to actually tell me, "Well the Dr didn't say anything about that." Guess how many multiples we sold in that office?

The Dr I work with now and I sat down about 6 months ago and came up with new phrasing for the Office lens. We wanted to broaden the scope of its use. So now instead of saying computer lenses or office lenses we say task specific lenses. Tom is a motorcyle mechanic and works at arms length alot of the day he could use a task specific pair of glasses. Judy is a caterer and needs a really wide field close she could use a task specific pair of glasses. Tony plays organ at church and counld benefit from a task specific pair of glasses. We went from selling a couple a month to selling about 15 to 20 pair a month. Our multiple pair sales are up 15% in the last 6 months.

I don't expect the Dr to make specific lens recommendations, but sometimes an emerging presbyope will tell them I don't want bifocals because I'll have to wear those big old frames. When they say, "Mary/Marvin here would like to stay in some stylish frames could you talk to them about short corridor lenses?" They have helped us overcome objections and allowed us to help that person with a minimum of wasted time.

That's my 2 cents. Let me just finish buttoning up my flame suit and you can have at me!!:D

[markssunwear]

Does NOT take our profession back one step,I'm a very good Optician and very confident in my work,From runing a complete finish Lab,1 hour jobs
to ordering lenes/frames/ect. Not just recieveing a action carrier box with the
frame & lens complete takeing it out and giveing it to the patient,my MOM can do that!

Believe me I have worked with doctor before that don't even know how to turn the edger on.The optician and the doctor need to be on the same page,if my doctor did not get a chance to tell me what he recomended he would write it in his notes,and if something new or something that I think is good I would let him know before hand.

BUT, I guess this would not work for all office,if the doctor thinks he's beter or more then the Optician it won't WORK.

DOCTOR + OPTICIAN = TEAM + UPSALES = MORE PROFIT + COMISSION =

DOCTOR & OPTICIAN HAPPY

I have worked in a practice where the doctor recommends products and I must tell you that it does no work very well for two reasons.

1) People just assume you are the order taker and it kills anything you have to say about any of the products. You will hear alot of thats not why the doctor said I needed them, thats when the backpeddleing starts.

2) You would assume that the doctor in your office knows the availability of all the products. I have worked in offices where the opticians would offer blended bifocals in transition and wonder why we can't fill them. The doctor has even less time to constantly keep track of new lenses and discontinued lenses.

These are just two of the valid reasons as to why it won't work, not to mention it does take our profession back one step.

[markssunwear]

AMEN.................

I agree with Mark! I've had several ODs shuffle through my office and I have explained to each of them before they start that I expect them to sell in the chair. Its something that may not work for everyone, but it works for us. For some reason people are more open in the chair and if the Dr recommends it then the Optician isn't seen to be pushing anything. Its a team effort and none of the Opticians I work with are insecure enough to think twice about the Dr doing this.

At the hand off the Dr says, "I talked to Ms Jones about Transitions, thinner lens materials and getting a good AR. The Optician here will help you select your frames and finalize your lens choices" It also helps when they step out and say, "Ms Jones is stable but doesn't have a current back up or a pair of polarized sunglasses. She also spends alot of her day on a computer and would benefit from a task specific pair of glasses with a good AR. Could you talk to her about what her choices are?"

Why would you not want that to happen? We've only had 1 baby Doc (new grad) that seemed to have a problem doing this and our sales went in the toilet the 2 months she worked with us. If we agree that we all want what is best for our clients then shouldn't we all be involved in helping them solve their visual needs?

The way I see it is the Dr presents the outline and we as Opticians fill in as much of that outline as we can. The fact of the matter is Ms Jones would benefit from transitions, thinner lenses and a good AR, but without the Drs recommendation we're just sales people swinging for the fence. When I worked for an OD people used to actually tell me, "Well the Dr didn't say anything about that." Guess how many multiples we sold in that office?

The Dr I work with now and I sat down about 6 months ago and came up with new phrasing for the Office lens. We wanted to broaden the scope of its use. So now instead of saying computer lenses or office lenses we say task specific lenses. Tom is a motorcyle mechanic and works at arms length alot of the day he could use a task specific pair of glasses. Judy is a caterer and needs a really wide field close she could use a task specific pair of glasses. Tony plays organ at church and counld benefit from a task specific pair of glasses. We went from selling a couple a month to selling about 15 to 20 pair a month. Our multiple pair sales are up 15% in the last 6 months.

I don't expect the Dr to make specific lens recommendations, but sometimes an emerging presbyope will tell them I don't want bifocals because I'll have to wear those big old frames. When they say, "Mary/Marvin here would like to stay in some stylish frames could you talk to them about short corridor lenses?" They have helped us overcome objections and allowed us to help that person with a minimum of wasted time.

That's my 2 cents. Let me just finish buttoning up my flame suit and you can have at me!!:D

[For-Life]

When an OD sells in the chair that is a CLEAR conflict of interest to the patient as the OD does have a financial insentive. Would you like it if your Doctor worked for Pfizer?

I worked for one OD who would suggest stuff, and it worked fine, but it does not make it right. I get too many patients in the store who go to other OD's who tell the patient, who is satisfied with his PAL, to get out of PAL's and go into a bifocal, then the conversation to trifocals will be easier. Or when the OD tells the patient, who is perfectly satisfied with the reading area of their glasses, to get a second pair reading glasses because they are not getting enough reading.


Can an OD explain what a PAL or an AR coating is? Yes, but to recommend this or that, no. It does not make the OD look stupid, it makes the OD look like he or she is recommending that the patient seek the most educated person for the job.

[DocInChina]

I am surprised to see so many contrasting opinions on here about the OD's involvement in the care of a patient. Prescribing glasses is only half of the prescription and an OD would be remiss in not further explaining (and knowing) what lens options and what treatment options would be best for the patient. The examiner has a unique perspective and interaction with the patient. Many patients divulge an enormous amount of details about their life (knowingly and unknowingly) to the doctor during the examination. The patient divulges details about themselves and their life that would not necessarily be known outside of the examining room.

As a former practioner I rarely let a patient leave the examining room until I finished reviewing their findings and treatment plan with them, including contact lens options and ophthalmic lens options. The opticians I worked with over the years were incredible and have left an indelible mark on me. We worked together as a team.

After the examination I would escort the patient to the optician, discuss again with the patient about what I recommended in the examination room and why. In this way crucial details were given to the optician in front of the patient and if the patient was unclear previously it gave me another opportunity (and the optician) to make sure the patient understood the treatment I was prescribing.

In my view this did not lessen the value of the optician. On contrary I empowered the opticians I worked with by giving them information and details from the examination that would help them know how to direct the patient into the most appropriate lens choice. If I did not do this the optician would basically have to start from scratch asking a case history that the patients already were asked during the examination and likely the patients would not be that eager to explain again.

The most important person in this entire interaction is the patient, not anyone's ego. My discussing frame and lens options didn't make me feel less as a doctor and didn't lessen the value of the optician. No matter how thorough the examination was, if the patient was not happy with the end product then the examination and all that followed the examination was a failure.

Doc

[For-Life]

So what stops an OD from prescribing the most expensive lenses to a patient, when that patient may even be worse off in that situation?

It is a slippery slope.

[For-Life]

Oh, and I love these OD's that keep giving me negative reps anytime I say that an OD should not prescribe lenses in the exam room. Really shows maturity.

Edit - I should rephrase that. I have the at most respect for most of the OD's on the board. I have a feeling it is just one particular OD that is doing it.

[chip anderson]

You knows "escorting the patient to the optician" is illegal under eyeglass 1. Why confess to past crimes if you got away with it.

Chip

[iman96]

In China, in more professional settings, it is expected that the doctor recommends to the patient. The patient would feel uncomfortable if another person were involved in their care.

[Framebender]

he makes fees against a guarantee. My wife and I own the optical. I guess you could say he understands that by helping us stay in business he doesn't have to look for work but that's not his motivation. Nor is it mine. For us its about a team approach to client satisfaction. I can honestly say that since I wanted the Dr to do the same thing when I worked for them and had no financial stake in the dispensary. I believe that the more information the patient is given the better off we all are.

If they have told the Dr they are model railroaders or rock climbers or they hated their old glasses because the lenses were fat or they had a bad AR, I want to know that information at the handoff. I don't want to have to try and drag it out of them again. First it doesn't make us look very professional and secondly they may not give me the same information. Together we can fulfill the clients visual needs. I believe that divisions can lead to turf wars and ultimately be self defeating.

When Shamir and Varilux did their presentations of free form progressives I invited Doc to attend. I've never had a Dr that walked out and said, "I want this guy in a 1.67 Zeiss Individual, transitions grey with Carat Advantage Blue." And I would be upset if they ever did that. Doc did drag an engineer from Martin out last week and say, "I told this guy a little bit about free form lenses. Could you explain the differences to him and see if you think he might benefit from them?" Thank you Dr!!

I believe that Drs are just like Opticians. . .there are some greedy ones, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Most of us want what is best for the clients we serve. That's how we grow our business.

[For-Life]

The problem is that many patients believe that when an OD says that you should be in the Zeiss Individual with Carat Advantage Blue the client takes that as a prescription. If an Optician says it then the client takes that as a recommendation or opinion. Two different meanings to a client. So while there are good and bad opticians out there, the opinion holds considerably less weight.

[BobV]

I work for 3 OMD and an OD. All have been asked to do a little pre-sell in the lanes prior to the patient coming to optical. They have been instructed just to give a basic overview of some of the options available.

Since we have started this program (about 1 1/2 years ago), we are now at about 70% a/r and 90% uv.

The program works. The docs check off what they recommend on a printed slip of paper, the patient brings it over, and I give them the pros and cons of each checked item and let them make an educated decision.

Bob Vartanian

[snowmonster]

When an OD sells in the chair that is a CLEAR conflict of interest to the patient as the OD does have a financial insentive. Would you like it if your Doctor worked for Pfizer?

Does the optician not have a financial incentive as well then? If you're going to get that technical about it, everyone has a financial interest as long as you receive a paycheck or commission/spiff from the sale of the lenses/frames/contacts.

Here's the other thing though - I don't "prescribe" Crizal Alize with Clear Guard on a Definity lens in 1.60 index with a Silhouette frame (as an expensive example). Such things are merely recommendations. The patient may say "I can't afford that, what else can you recommend?"

The whole point is that some patients want to see better and have better looking/lighter weight glasses as well. This is what we're offering our patients. They can either take advantage of it, or not.

-Steve

[For-Life]

Does the optician not have a financial incentive as well then? If you're going to get that technical about it, everyone has a financial interest as long as you receive a paycheck or commission/spiff from the sale of the lenses/frames/contacts.

Here's the other thing though - I don't "prescribe" Crizal Alize with Clear Guard on a Definity lens in 1.60 index with a Silhouette frame (as an expensive example). Such things are merely recommendations. The patient may say "I can't afford that, what else can you recommend?"

The whole point is that some patients want to see better and have better looking/lighter weight glasses as well. This is what we're offering our patients. They can either take advantage of it, or not.

-Steve

The Optician does have a financial incentive. I have never denied that. But as I have explained, when the Optician recommends a product the client takes that as a recommendation or a suggestion. When an OD recommends a product many clients take that as a prescription, meaning that the client HAS to have the prescribed product.

Yes, the patients want to see better, yes the patients want a nice looking pair of glasses, but it is up to the optician to make the move. That is why we get the training and that is why we are employed. If we cannot live up to our duties then why should an OD have an Optician working for them in the first place?

[snowmonster]

Yes, the patients want to see better, yes the patients want a nice looking pair of glasses, but it is up to the optician to make the move. That is why we get the training and that is why we are employed. If we cannot live up to our duties then why should an OD have an Optician working for them in the first place?

Because the doc needs to be kept busy generating charges by doing exams for a company to remain viable (unless you're in a freestanding optical).
If the doc is busy doing exams most of the time (like in my office), they will need help selling, dispensing, fixing and adjusting glasses and counseling patients.

Again, it's a team. Unless you have only 1 person working in your office/lab/company, you're part of a team. Each person has their strengths, and as markssunwear said, they should be complimentary, not combative like a bunch of other people seem to think.

-Steve

[orangezero]

Even if I wanted, my patients don't take my recommendations of PAL vs BF as any more than a recommendation. If they don't have the money, they don't get it. I wouldn't be happy with anyone that would try to convince them otherwise.

Seems like there are a lot of pushy sellers in general in the optical industry. Anyone can upsell.

I think the general trend should be for patients to find a practitioner they can trust and also someone to sell them glasses they can trust (most opticians hope its not the same person...) Too often it comes down to what people perceive as the cheapest price.

It would be nice if more people did realize the value in better lens designs, extra coatings, etc.

ODs do have lots of ophthalmic optics education in school as well as rotations in the college dispensory to help patients pick out frames, dispense, repair, etc. Some may not have liked it much, but we all had to do it in our school. It went on from 1st year through at least the 3rd. The challenge is to keep updated...

[For-Life]

You would be surprised by the stuff my clients here and what is written on their Rx's by other OD's.

You would then be surprised as to what they believe.

I spend too much time in a day trying to correct falsies and alter the way of thinking for the clients.