Hybrid cars...anybody got one?

[fjpod]

I do a lot of local driving and was thinking of getting a Ford Escape. Maybe it's not the best in mileage of the hybrids, but it has more room.

Can anyone relate their experience wih hybrids?

[Framebender]

Ford Escape. . .??

Come on Doc. . .buy a Harley! 45 to 55 mpg and if you need more room get a sidecar or one of the old 45ci three wheelers!! My buddy gets better than 70 mpg with his three wheeler!! You'll also look very cool!!
:D

[chip anderson]

Unless I missed something in the little bit of physics I have learned. You cannot change one form of energy to another without energy loss. This basicly makes the hybred a looser. Also makes the electric car a looser.

However I did back in the early '50's own a few Studebakers that got 35 miles to the gallon no matter how much the engine was past worn out, had enough power to pull a large boat, free wheeling, a hill holder (kept car in place when stopped on an uphill, and would do 85 mph all day long (getting 35 mpg) with 6 people in the car and all the windows down. All this with a heavy cast iron carbureted engine, a heavy cast iorn frame and real metal fenders and body.

Too bad Detroit or somebody doesn't want to make a planetary overdrive and use a modern light weight engine with computerised fuel injection. Bet it would do more than the old Stude and get 60 miles per gallon.

Not all progress is in the right direction.

Chip

[shanbaum]

Chip, how is it that even when you're right, you're wrong? What you say about energy conversion is correct, so far as I know. However, hybrids (and other electric cars) use energy that's normally lost during braking to charge their batteries - so there's a net gain.

That's why they're not losers.

Having said that, I think my next car may be a diesel Jetta - over 40 mpg without the complexity of a hybrid.

[fjpod]

It's good to see we don't just argue over optical thngs. Anybody else?

[shanbaum]

I suppose I should've added I agree with Chip's fondness for Studebakers, since I'm usually bashing him. The day they closed was one of the saddest in automotive history. Imagine what a updated Golden Hawk might be like...

I know RT has a hybrid SUV (I think it's an Escape), and likes it a lot. Maybe he'll chime in, or you could PM him.

[chip anderson]

I might also mention that Ford and Chevy had similar transmissions (although much poorer aerodynamics, and less fuel efficent engines) up 'til 1955.

Ford also had the Colombia two speed rear end for similar results, low gears for take off and much higher overall ratios that the silly fixed five speeds attached to the sewing machine engines now in cars.

When you had a 4:11 rear end for take off and towing and could switch to a 2:36 for the highway. You had something. Not to mention you could stomp it to floor which droppe you back to 4:11 for passing.

Chip

If I ever find a very good condition '54 Stude Champion Regal Hard top, I'll buy it, put in an aluminium V8 with modern aspiration and ignition. I'll expect at least 50 mpg and a top end of 150 or more.

Chip :cheers:

[rbaker]

We should be looking at the net economic impact that any system has rather than just gas mileage. The internal combustion/electric (Prius) hybrid vehicles do achieve a 10 to 20 percent average reduction in fuel burn which at first seems attractive (at highway speeds of 60 – 75MPH the fuel consumption drops to that of a comparable powerplant.) However, the economic break even point for the owner is some six years down the road due to the higher initial cost of these vehicles. In addition, the replacement of the batteries at the five year point is a rather expensive procedure and must be taken into account.

If we look at these vehicles from a broader perspective we find that any savings in fuel costs that the owner achieves are paid for by the general public through the hidden expenses involved in the disposal of the lead/acid storage batteries. When we also factor in the additional fuel that is used to manufacture the electrical components that are added to the vehicle – to make it a hybrid – we find that there is a net loss in the efficiency of these vehicles. It’s like a shell game – borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. The driver gets to save a dollar but his neighbors have to kick in a buck ten.

An interesting side bar to fuel economy is the loss of tax revenue that occurs as we drive more fuel efficient vehicles. And, to complicate matters they want the taxpayer to provide incentives to the users of hybrids.

This idea of fuel efficiency is relatively new to us and runs counter to the American automotive manufacturers. But, things are changing and higher fuel costs may be getting the attention of the “Big Three.” It will probably take fuel prices up around $7.00 a gallon (in today’s dollars) to actually have any significant impact. Despite fuel prices in excess of $3.00 a gallon discretionary driving us at it’s highest level ever. We will still drive 500 miles to the beach or mountains.

The hybrid is a way point on the road to much more fuel efficient (and, I might add, drivable) vehicles. We will probably end up driving internal combustion engines fueled by hydrogen produced by electricity from a nuclear power plant.

To respond more specifically to your request for hybrid experiences, I have a friend who bought a Toyota Prius for his wife and she loves it. He loves it too and bought a second one for himself. My cousin bought one for his granddaughter as a graduation present and to take off to college. She loves it. In fact, the only criticism that I hear from hybrid owners concern not getting the mileage that was advertised (but, what else is new) and poor long distance highway performance.

[fjpod]

I was considering a hybrid not so much to save money on fuel, but, as nieve as this may sound, to decrease the amount of money I spend on foreign oil. With the mid-size SUV I have now, I'm lucky if I get 12 mpg in the city. An Escape hybrid would exceed that by at least double. If everyone did it, we could eliminate consumption of imported oil.

Of course, as rbaker points out, you've got to consider whether the extra components which go into these vehicles consumes more oil in the first place. I think even after considering this, a hybrid will save on oil consumption.

Sure I'd like to save money. Sure I'd like to help reduce greenhouse gases. But, what I'd really like to do is stop buying imported oil...even if it costs a little more. Even if it costs a little more to power my car, it could save the US (and Canada, eh) billions in money going to hostile powers, which in turn cause us to spend more money for defense.

E-85 fuel (85% ethanol), hydrogen, fuel cells...are not here yet. If car buyers show the automakers that they want change by buying hybrids now, it should accelerate the changeover. If we keep buying the same old gas guzzlers, the auto makers won't change.

[rbaker]

Let’s see now, you do not want to put foreign petroleum products into a fuel tank that was made in the Bombay out of steel made in China into your Japanese auto which was made in Singapore and shipped to the Port of Los Angeles on a Panamanian ship to be unloaded by wet backs.

OK, you can either look for a good wood burner made in Vermont or buy your fuel from Citgo as the majority of their product line is domestic. You might also want to look up Willie Nelson. You might also want to be very thankful that so few vehicles are hybrids.

Sorry, just an attack of sarcasm. Your stated goal of using less foreign oil will best be served by hammering your elected pecker heads in Washington and Albany into removing the restrictions on the domestic exploration and wellheading of petroleum and the construction of new refineries, particularly in New England. And, remember, you ain’t just talking about gasoline here – don’t forget fuel oil. While you are at it, see if you can get these bozos to remove some of the regulatory requirements that, while well meaning, have actually contributed the unintended consequence of high fuel prices.

But, not to worry. Science and engineering will work out the solution. Legislation will screw it up. Some things never change.

[fjpod]

rbaker,

You might be right about pressuring elected officials...but, I was planning on buying American made...Ford.

[For-Life]

Buying domestic does not matter to me anymore.

The way I see it is the companies are either Japanese, American, or South Korean, so that money leaves Canada anyways.

Toyota, Nissan, Honda all have plants in Canada, and I support that. The fact is if I buy a vehicle I am supporting the Canadian factory jobs whether I buy domestic or not.

So I buy the better vehicle and that is Import.

[shanbaum]

Eh?

Buying domestic does not matter to me anymore.

The way I see it is the companies are either Japanese, American, or South Korean, so that money leaves Canada anyways.

Toyota, Nissan, Honda all have plants in Canada, and I support that. The fact is if I buy a vehicle I am supporting the Canadian factory jobs whether I buy domestic or not.

So I buy the better vehicle and that is Import.

What brand could a Canadian buy that wouldn't be an "import"?

[For-Life]

What brand could a Canadian buy that wouldn't be an "import"?

That is what I am saying, they are all imports to us. But we are told that we should buy US domestic to support our economy.

[chip anderson]

GM and Ford make a lot of cars in Canada. Some of them for unfantomable reasons are postive ground. Had a mechanic friend who claimed to have worked on a Canadian Model A.
Don't you Cannucks know that someday The US, Brittian and Canada will be in battle with most of Asia. Support for each other will give us a better chance in the end.


Chip