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Thread: Hybrid cars...anybody got one?

  1. #26
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    A friend of mine is playing a part in www.phoenixmotorcars.com. I've been following them for a couple of years and I really like how things are working out.

  2. #27
    Bad address email on file lilchiken's Avatar
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    Confused hybrid vehicles

    Can I ask a question here? Does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumor that these hybrid vehicle engines don't last as long as regular vehicle engines?

  3. #28
    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    It's the batteries that will need replacing. 3 grand buys a lot of gas! hj
    "Always laugh when you can. It is a cheap medicine"
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  4. #29
    Master OptiBoarder keithbenjamin's Avatar
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    GM admits it's building hybrids to get good press, and not much else.

    General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve its public image. "Hybrids are technologically of doubtful benefit, and expensive, but necessary from a political and public relations point of view," Lutz told Just-Auto. "Toyota has said, economically, hybrids make no sense. The reduction in fuel [consumption] does not pay for the technological content and cost of the vehicle so therefore economically it remains fairly nonsensical, so that's the left-brain analytical argument."

    "The right brain is it's the popular thing to do, many people believe that if we all drove hybrids the world would suddenly get cooler again and then it's the patriotic thing to do because if you drive a hybrid you will no longer be funding the Arab terrorists, and so forth."

    "So, with all those beliefs out there, you have to do a hybrid for public policy reasons."

    "I don't care how much money you get out but when you've got two drivetrains, the sophisticated electronics and a big lithium-ion battery, you've got cost."

    Lutz says diesels are also problematic. "The modern diesel is becoming more and more expensive as we have to have to gear up to meet Euro 5, which is very difficult."

    "Let's not forget, a diesel engine is always going to be more expensive than a conventional petrol engine, that's the laws of physics."

    In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. "We think running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the world," he said.

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/07/21/lutz-gm-building-hybrids-for-good-press/#more-3454

    -K

  5. #30
    Master OptiBoarder keithbenjamin's Avatar
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    "...the dust-to-dust energy cost of the bunny-sized Honda Civic hybrid is $3.238 per mile. This is quite a bit more than the $1.949 per mile that the elephantine Hummer costs. The energy cots of SUVs such as the Tahoe, Escalade, and Navigator are similarly far less than the Civic hybrid."

    http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml

    -K

  6. #31
    OptiEngineer dochsml's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keithbenjamin
    GM admits it's building hybrids to get good press, and not much else.

    General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve its public image. "Hybrids are technologically of doubtful benefit, and expensive, but necessary from a political and public relations point of view," Lutz told Just-Auto. "Toyota has said, economically, hybrids make no sense. The reduction in fuel [consumption] does not pay for the technological content and cost of the vehicle so therefore economically it remains fairly nonsensical, so that's the left-brain analytical argument."

    "The right brain is it's the popular thing to do, many people believe that if we all drove hybrids the world would suddenly get cooler again and then it's the patriotic thing to do because if you drive a hybrid you will no longer be funding the Arab terrorists, and so forth."

    "So, with all those beliefs out there, you have to do a hybrid for public policy reasons."

    "I don't care how much money you get out but when you've got two drivetrains, the sophisticated electronics and a big lithium-ion battery, you've got cost."

    Lutz says diesels are also problematic. "The modern diesel is becoming more and more expensive as we have to have to gear up to meet Euro 5, which is very difficult."

    "Let's not forget, a diesel engine is always going to be more expensive than a conventional petrol engine, that's the laws of physics."

    In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. "We think running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the world," he said.

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/07/21/lutz-gm-building-hybrids-for-good-press/#more-3454

    -K
    Ethanol is not as efficient as gasoline. It is known that a tank full of straight ethanol would only produce about 68% of the power as the same tank filled with straight gasoline. (Road & Track, Tech Tidbits August 2006). Are we looking for efficiency or just to replace gasoline? Assuming this formula is correct, you would have to burn more fuel to get the same distance as on straight gasoline. Currently a lot of pumps either use E10 or E15 gasoline. Using this formula.....

    0.9 (gasoline) + 0.1x0.68 (ethanol) = 97% as efficient as straight gas

    0.15 (gasoline) + 0.85x0.68 (ethanol) = 73% as efficient as straight gas

    If E85 is the answer, I hope it is at least 27% cheaper than straight gas because we will be filling up that more often in a one for one comparison.

  7. #32
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Interesting discussion... The hybrids I find most compelling are the gas/electric hybrids where the combustion engine does most of the work and the electric merely conserves the energy usually lost when braking.

    Given current technology, any hydrogen car is- in my opinion anyway- just a silly political statement. The amount of energy necessary to create the hydrogen fuel (and that energy is usually derived from burning fossil fuels) is greater than the energy created by the hydrogen. In short, all things considered (pun intended- you'll never see this view considered on NPR) a gasoline-powered car is greener than a hydrogen vehicle! Given the junk that goes into batteries, I'm not sure electric cars are all that green, either (having a few on the road is great- converting everyone to them would likely result in a used-battery recycling/disposal problem).

    I think high-efficiency diesel may be the best practical answer (which seems to be Robert's conclusion as well). Petrol products simply have a very high amount of easily accessed energy relative to volume, so why not simply work to become more efficient with the existing energy source? With the turbo-diesels out there, you don't even have to compromise on performance!

    Regarding Canadian-made vehicles, our Ford Expedition (which we obviously didn't purchase for the fuel economy) was built/assembled in Canada (according to the sticker under the hood). Its been the (knock on wood) most reliable long-term vehicle we've ever owned (had it for about 7 years now... still running strong).
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
    Vice President Professional Services
    Essilor of America

    http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74

  8. #33
    OptiEngineer dochsml's Avatar
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    I agree, diesel is the way to go. If you want a hybrid car, how about a diesel generator powering four separate electric motors at each wheel? Kind of how a diesel locomotive works. :idea:

  9. #34
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    I have owned a Honda Civic hybrid for over a year now and have averaged 38 mpg overall including 2 summers now with the air conditioning running on high here in the Arizona desert. Without the A/C on I get 45+ mpg and it gets its best mileage at 60 mph. There are guages on my dash that indicate what my gas mileage is at any given time. These numbers bear out against computing gallons used vs miles driven. Honda says that their batteries are expected to last for the life of the car and not need replacing. This is based on the fact that they have had hybrid cars on the road for almost ten years now and there has not been any overall need for battery replacements. The car runs good and has average take off from a stop and cruises easily at 80 mph although the mileage starts to drop significantly. The batteries and the charging system did seem to not work as well recently when the temperatures got to 118 degrees here. I asked the service department at my dealer and was told that the 2005 models did seem to display that kind of behavior and that steps had been taken to address the problem in 2006.

    All things considered, I am very happy with the car.
    Wes Trayner

  10. #35
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    Get an old Studebaker.

  11. #36
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    I drive a GM (vauxhaul) Omega (caterea) with a gas conversion - petrol/LPG... and it is fab

  12. #37
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    So, almost 4 years later, I bought a Prius. Had it about 3 months now. Even in the middle of the winter I get 50 mpg (supposed to be more in better weather). I got a base model, so it is not a luxury car by any means, but the cabin is surprisingly roomy, and it does have a lot of advanced electronics that you wouldn't normally see on a base car.

    The 2010 has excellent acceleration, and in city traffic, it runs on battery a lot.

    I think I'll keep it.

  13. #38
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    So Doc, how long before the savings offsets the increased price for you to break even? Five, six years?

  14. #39
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    If fuel economy is your main concern get a bicycle. 0 MPG. Legs ain't what they used to be, get a motor scooter. 70 MPG

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    If fuel economy is your main concern get a bicycle. 0 MPG. Legs ain't what they used to be, get a motor scooter. 70 MPG
    Bikes get scary here in the winter. I am sure the same goes for NY

    I do walk as much as I can in the summer. Actually, even in the winter.

  16. #41
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    Not that I need a reason, but I did not buy this car to save money. I bought it because it reduces the amount of foreign oil that we have to import.

    It also fulfills my need as a city car with a decent size hatchback.

  17. #42
    OptiBoard Professional RT's Avatar
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    We own 2 hybrids, mine is almost 5 years old. Like fjpod, the decision was made using a variety of criteria that were much deeper than just a break-even calculation. Interestingly, we never compared the cost of the hybrid to the cost of the gas-only version of the car. We compared the hybrid to other cars in the same price range. Ultimately, we decided that an option that adds significantly better gas mileage was more attractive to us than an option that added a sunroof, a radio you can tune by talking to it, or the sports decal package. Gas mileage was one of my top requirements in my car search.

    Since there is no gas-only version of the Prius, its hard to know what the "break even" point is for fjpod, and of course, it depends upon how many miles you drive per year. My wife drives 30K miles per year. Her break-even is much shorter than most people's.

    Sometimes, people do the right thing simply because it is, well, the right thing. Reducing your personal consumption of energy is deemed to be the right thing by many people.
    RT

  18. #43
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    Agreed. I would be willing to spend a little more if it meant buying less foreign oil.

    The old car I was driving (95 Rodeo) was barely getting 12 mpg locally. Now I get 50. I had to replace that old rust bucket anyway. The sticker price on that 95 Rodeo was about the same as that on my 2010 Prius. Do the math. I improved my fuel economy by four times, and I spent the same on the car.

    If American automaker produced Prius like cars, and Americans drove them, this would be the best national energy policy we could have.

  19. #44
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    Went to Long Island the other day. Maybe 75 mile round trip. Got 56 mpg for the trip according to the cars computer. They are known to be about 3-4 miles too generous...but still.

  20. #45
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter DragonLensmanWV's Avatar
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    Well you save money because you don't waste energy braking.:bbg::bbg::bbg:
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    "There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."

  21. #46
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    You may find a great disparity between the computers mileage figures and the actual MPG calculated by measuring actual fuel burn. You may also notice that the economy indicator seem to follow throttle position and little else. It's really just a gimmick.

    The Prius realizes its fuel economy primarily through its low horsepower, light weight and little else.

    My question is, what do you do if you have a wife, three kids, a dog and a mother in law and ten bags of groceries?

  22. #47
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    mmm...I think you are mostly incorrect. As I said the computer is off 3-4 mpg when compared to fill-up calculations. Like all other cars, it calculates mpg based on fuel burned. The lighter the foot, the better the mileage...but this is true with all cars. Prius also has very good 0-60 performance because it uses the ICE and electric motors on hard acceleration. Not at all anemic like a Corolla. For family trips, I use the family van.

    Recently I rented a car in Fla. which happened to be a Corolla. It is a much smaller car than the Prius and the most I could get out of the car was 32 mpg on the highway.

  23. #48
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    Have you noticed??

    The price of gas went over $3.00 in NY as oil went to $85 per barrel. Now that the price of oil has gone back down to $70, the price of gas is still over $3.00.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    Have you noticed??

    The price of gas went over $3.00 in NY as oil went to $85 per barrel. Now that the price of oil has gone back down to $70, the price of gas is still over $3.00.
    I paid $2.54 yesterday.
    Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry

  25. #50
    Underemployed Genius Jacqui's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    I paid $2.54 yesterday.
    $2.56 here, was a week or so ago about $3.00

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