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Thread: Variable Near Inset

  1. #1
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    Variable Near Inset

    I am able to find the variable near inset in Carl Zeiss Gradal Individual, since the lens is produced according to the patient's personal data. But why in the semi-finished pal lens also provide the same feature? Just like SOLAOne.

  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    Samuel, the near zone inset of Gradal Top (upon which Gradal Individual is based) ranges from 2.0 to 4.5 mm. The near zone inset of Gradal Individual actually varies with the Add power, distance Rx, and the wearer's distance PD. So, wearers who have wide distance PDs will receive a greater near inset than wearers with narrower PDs. The near zone inset of semi-finished lenses cannot vary with the wearer's actual PD measurements, since the design can only be modified by Base curve and Add power.
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Meister
    Samuel, the near zone inset of Gradal Top (upon which Gradal Individual is based) ranges from 2.0 to 4.5 mm. The near zone inset of Gradal Individual actually varies with the Add power, distance Rx, and the wearer's distance PD. So, wearers who have wide distance PDs will receive a greater near inset than wearers with narrower PDs. The near zone inset of semi-finished lenses cannot vary with the wearer's actual PD measurements, since the design can only be modified by Base curve and Add power.
    Darryl, it is clear for me now. Thanks a lot.

  4. #4
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    Variable inset

    This is the variable inset of Rodenstock Progressiv AT , Samuel Jong :D :bbg:

    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobie View Post
    This is the variable inset of Rodenstock Progressiv AT , Samuel Jong :D :bbg:
    Are Rodenstock Progressive AT using free-form technolgy? While Carl Zeiss Individual FrameFit variable inset is designed according to pt's personal data.

  6. #6
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    Samuel Jong ,

    Rodenstock Progressive AT is not free-form technolgy?
    It have only 60 inset difference by ametropia with 6 difference inset of front base curve x 10 difference inset of each ADD.

    Carl Zeiss Individual is individual free form PALs that have more than 1,000 inset difference by ametropia. :D
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
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    :cheers:

  7. #7
    OptiBoardaholic
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    Bobie,

    I seldom test wearing other progressive lenses than Sola and Carl Zeiss. Now I am wearing is Individual from Carl Zeiss.

    Thanks for your info about Rodenstock AT.

    Samuel

  8. #8
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    Zeiss Gradal Individual is the second world best PALs. In case that you would like to try better PALs , you have to going for Rodenstock Impression ILT. :D

    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
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    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  9. #9
    OptiBoardaholic
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    Thanks for the nice info about Rodenstock Impression ILT.
    :cheers:

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobie View Post
    Zeiss Gradal Individual is the second world best PALs.

    Bobie-

    That is a very bold statement. Could you provide us with the information that you base that statement on. I interested as to how and why.

  11. #11
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    Fezz ,
    The information I have in my hand is in German. I will looking for English version and post it soon.
    My openion is when you see some wearers who have Zeiss Gradal Individual , just put the Impression ILT to them and see what 's happen. :D In Thailand , we will inform the wearer that , oh! you have very good and very expensive PALs , but now we have better one in about the same price. Would like you like to try some ? Then , the answer is always yes with full satisfaction guaranteed.
    If it is not better , don't pay any things. I think this is fair enough. :cheers:
    Once again , in our club , no place to hide for any PALs. :finger:

    Between the waiting , let we see , how the Impression ILT have been design!





    Others Free Form PALs

    Impression ILT

    Offcourse , it is in German.
    Last edited by Bobie; 12-07-2006 at 08:14 AM.
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  12. #12
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    If it is not better , don't pay any things. I think this is fair enough.
    Fair or not, that doesn't really make Impression ILT any better than Gradal Individual... ;)
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobie View Post
    If it is not better , don't pay any things. I think this is fair enough.
    Do you think the Impression ILT is the best PAL?

  14. #14
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    Darryl ,
    Could you please , show me how good Gradal Invidual is and the design of it.

    In Thailand , we listen to the wearer not the PALs company.
    When the wearer who get used to Gradal Individual and very happy with it. We just put the Rodenstock Impression ILT in the condition of better or not pay. ( These wearer are the European and buy Gradal Individual from Europe )

    We test only 10 case from Gradal Individual to Impression ILT and all of 10 wearer see better and feel better within few seconds and these enough for us.
    We also interesting to test the weare who get used to Impression ILT to try Gradal Individual but we can not order yet. If you can arrange we will pay and test , because we have thousand of happy Impression ILT wearer in Thailand who would like to pay more for better PALs. The problem is we can find any PALs better than Impression ILT yet , then our wearer have to wait.
    In case the Zeiss have better PALs than Gradal Individual , let me know. We will dig and test how better it is.
    Once again , in our club " no place to hide for any PALs ". :D
    The name can not used in our club but the real performance only will be survive.
    I am realy sorry to say , many of very expensive PALs are dead meat on our test. :D ( like Hoya or Essilor ).
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  15. #15
    Allen Weatherby
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    Thai Optical freeform?

    Bobie:

    How do the Thai Optical freefrom lenses compare to the Rodenstock ILT? Have you had anyone in the ILT switch and try the Thai Optical freeform? If so what is your experience? How many have tried this?

    Thanks for your knowledge of these freeform products.

  16. #16
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    AWTECH ,
    TOG Excelite Freedom 13 & 15 : Free Form Progressive Back Surface can not compare with Rodenstock Impression ILT , because Impression ILT is total better technology.

    We can compare Excelite Freedom 15 with Rodenstock Multigressiv ILT and Hoyalux iD 14.

    We ever switching the wearer from Impression ILT to Excelite Freedom 15 only 1 case and the result is Imkpression ILT total better in all point of performance.

    We would like to try more case , but our Impression ILT wearer need to try better PALs only. Then we only try 50 wearer on Trial Frame and the result is Impression ILT still total better at all.

    Excelite Freedom 15 can compare with Hoyalux iD14 and the rating of Hoyalux iD is better about 10% in 24 mm total frame height and about the same in 28 mm total frame height.

    Excelite Freedom 13 can compare with Rodenstock Multigressiv ILT XS in 26 mm total frame height / 18 mm fitting height and the result about the same for distance and near , but Freedom 13 is much better at intermediate. ( Freedom 13 is 13 mm corridor length vs Multigressiv ILT XS is 11 mm corridor length )

    In case that the parameter of the frame can adjust to standard of Freedom 13 , P.D. 64 , no CYL. , no Prism , no anisometropia , 26 total frame height / 18 mm fitting height , the result is about the same like Multigressiv ILT vs Freedom 13.

    Freedom 13 have better performance if compare with Hoyalux iD 11 ( P.D. 64 , no CYL. , no Prism , no anisometropia , 26 total frame height / 18 mm fitting height )

    TOG Excelite Freedom is one of the most value Free Form PALs in today market and can beat all of semi-finished PALs like Physio , Creation , Panamic , Progressiv life 2 , Progressiv AT. :D
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  17. #17
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    In Thailand , we listen to the wearer not the PALs company.
    When the wearer who get used to Gradal Individual and very happy with it. We just put the Rodenstock Impression ILT in the condition of better or not pay.
    Honestly, Bobie, this statement doesn't make a lot of sense. If I understand you correctly, you first "listen to the wearer," and then switch them from a lens that they are "very happy with" into another product...?
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  18. #18
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    It sounds like other PAL's should be out from the earth except Impression ILT.

  19. #19
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    Yes , Darryl
    You understand correctly.
    We do with the wearer who are very happy and proud in Gradal Individual and we confirm their PALs is very good and very expensive , and we ask the wearer that , would you like to try better one or not ?
    Once again , no better no pay. These what we do in Thailand.

    But don't worry about another PALs company , because Rodenstock have very weak marketing and don't know how to tell the world how great about Impression ILT.

    Jong , the other PALs still can be on the earth if they can make the O.D. , optician and the wearer believe in quality of their PALs , but not in Thailand.

    Once again , in Thailand , no place to hide for any PALs. :finger:
    Last edited by Bobie; 12-08-2006 at 06:15 AM.
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  20. #20
    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Zeiss Gradal Individual v. Rodenstock Impression ILT

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobie View Post
    We test only 10 case from Gradal Individual to Impression ILT and all of 10 wearer see better and feel better within few seconds and these enough for us. We also interesting to test the weare who get used to Impression ILT to try Gradal Individual but we can not order yet ...
    It would be interesting to follow this up with more test cases (more than just ten) and tests that involve more than just a subjective response by the patient after a few seconds with the ILT. Follow up tests or patient questionnaires after the patients have been wearing ILT for a few months. Tests of their visual acuity and performance involving test stimuli and instruments.

    I would be concerned about testing issues such as a placebo effect - and about patients responses being affected by the psychological effects of "suggestion" - and the likelihood that after a patient has "bought into" the ILT, they are likely to be less than reliably objective in justifying or rationalizing their choice.

    It will be interesting to see how the PALs Club continues to evolve their testing methodologies.

    Just my two cents worth.
    :D


    rinselberg's long awaited Jurassic Post opened Wednesday to record view counts on OptiBoard's Word of the Day!

  21. #21
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    It would be interesting to follow this up with more test cases (more than just ten) and tests that involve more than just a subjective response by the patient after a few seconds with the ILT.
    I think Bobie is primarily interested in dispensing Rodenstock lenses, not necessarily in a clinical study comparing Rodenstock to ZEISS. Secondly, many wearers will experience an improvement in vision when getting a new progressive lens design, of whatever type (at least, assuming it performs reasonably well), simply because their prescription has been updated.
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  22. #22
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    Thank you for your comment , rinselberg
    I agree with you to test more case and follow up for few months , but our wearer are tourist form Europe and stay only for few weeks.

    We have only few wearer who current wear Gradal Individual ( 20 time less than Gradal Top ). Then , it is not easy to find out more than 20 case , but we will try. :bbg:

    Our club are not interesting for clinical study for Rodenstock vs Zeiss or others PALs , but we focus on Individual PALs like Rodenstock Impression ILT vs Gradal Individual.

    In fact of PALs , the old PALs with the old Rx get more advance than the new Rx ,because more SPH. & more ADD = more distortion & less visual field , Darryl.
    • The most of our wearer have the same distance Rx.
    • The 50% of our wearer have the same Rx.
    • The 40% of our wearer have the same distance Rx and need only 0.25D more ADD or less ADD.
    • 10% of our wearer have difference Rx.
    • 40% of our wearer just buy the old PALs less than 12 months.
    Darryl , if the wearer get new pair of PALs in new Rx that difference only ADD 0.25D , even they get exactly the same model of PALs. Their visual field will be smaller and more distortion.

    I read your post and feel like you never fitting PALs by yourself. Please try to understand that , it's very danger to changing the design of PALs in the same technology for the wearer. You can change the design of PALs from lower tehnology to the higher technology PALs , if not , Don't do it.

    Around the world , many wearer don't like the new pair of PALs , because it worst than the old one they have and the prescription has been updated. Most of them have to going back to the old design with new Rx.

    In fact , the PALs that the wearer get used to it , have much more advantage with the new PALs that have difference design. In case that the performance about the same , the wearer will feel better on the old PALs. The wearer can feel the new PALs better only when the new PALs much better than the old PALs.

    Anyway , we will waiting for Gradal Individual do marketing in Thailand. If Zeiss can proof Gradal Individual is better than Impression ILT. Our club will sell Gradal Individual many thousand pair in the first year and more for second years. :D

    " In PALs business , only the name is not enough " :finger:
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  23. #23
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    I read your post and feel like you never fitting PALs by yourself.
    I'm surprised I left you with that impression.

    Anyway , we will waiting for Gradal Individual do marketing in Thailand. If Zeiss can proof Gradal Individual is better than Impression ILT.
    Bobie, in all fairness, keep in mind that none of the seven threads of Rodenstock marketing that you posted in the Progressives forum proves Rodenstock ILT is superior to Gradal Individual.

    However, if you are very satisfied with the performance of Impression ILT, and find that it is considerably less expensive than Gradal Individual in Thailand, then there is certainly nothing wrong with using the Rodenstock product. They are certainly competent lens designers. But the fact that you prefer to sell one product over the other doesn't necessarily make your particular choice inherently "superior" to the other.
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  24. #24
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    Darryl ,
    • Why you not show me the technology of Gradal Individual that you think better than Impression ILT.
    • Gradal Individual and all of Zeiss PALs not available in Thailand. It is not about who cheeper , but about which one better and not about the price.
    • If Zeiss can proof Gradal Individual better and the price is more , that fine , we like to sell it.
    • I am in retailer PALs business and will find out the fact of all PALs and against the PALs Empire who hidden the truth.
    Once again , In our club " no place to hide for all PALs ". :bbg:
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  25. #25
    ATO Member OPTIDONN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobie View Post
    Darryl ,
    • Why you not show me the technology of Gradal Individual that you think better than Impression ILT.
    • Gradal Individual and all of Zeiss PALs not available in Thailand. It is not about who cheeper , but about which one better and not about the price.
    • If Zeiss can proof Gradal Individual better and the price is more , that fine , we like to sell it.
    • I am in retailer PALs business and will find out the fact of all PALs and against the PALs Empire who hidden the truth.
    Once again , In our club " no place to hide for all PALs ". :bbg:
    OK, I have a question for you Bobie. What is your background? Is it engineering? Optics? lens manufacturing? or is it retail? I have worked with people who have rejected more advanced lenses and have been very happy a VIP which is a very hard and old design. Is it because it's a better lens? NO, it's because this design fit the individuals needs of the wearer. If you are trying to come up with some database that will help ECP's to select the most appropriate lens for the wearer then that is a great idea. Why are you so focused on PALs? why not also see what A/R is the best?
    Last edited by OPTIDONN; 12-08-2006 at 03:46 PM.

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