Lenses & Costs

[grawil]

Hi all,

It's time for me to get some glasses (after 5 years the AR coatings on my current ones is wearing off) and, knowing a little about optics, I decided to do some surfing online about the different types of lenses on the market. My perscription is mid-range near-sighted (~ - 3.0 to 4.0), I typically buy aspherical (oops) higher index lenses (~1.67) and I wear glasses every day. Can someone in the know explain if there is much difference between the different manufacturers (Essilor, Seiko, Pentax, Zeiss, etc) and how usefull/effective these coatings (AR, scratch resistance, water resistance, stain coating, impact resistance, etc) are? I'm familiar with AR coatings but the others all seem a little vague to me and it's hard to know if I'm throwing $$$ away.

How does one objectively compare these?
Pentax ASTERIA SAT UV
Seiko SSV AZ
Essilor As TL 1.67 Crizal Alize
Nikon ICE
Zeiss CARAT

Having visited 4 different eye glass stores in Kitchener/Waterloo in the last week, I've been quite disappointed with the sales staff. It is pretty clear that they are little more than fashion consultants these days. Few if any of them new the brands of the lenses they stocked without asking their technician and most didn't carry the higher-end lenses in stock. Ordering them, they wanted $CDN 350+ for the lenses and needed 2-6 weeks for delivery. If anyone has any recommendations on a good optician in the area, I'd be most greatful.

[For-Life]

Hi all,

It's time for me to get some glasses (after 5 years the AR coatings on my current ones is wearing off) and, knowing a little about optics, I decided to do some surfing online about the different types of lenses on the market. My perscription is mid-range near-sighted (~ - 3.0 to 4.0), I typically buy asymmetric higher index lenses (~1.67) and I wear glasses every day. Can someone in the know explain if there is much difference between the different manufacturers (Essilor, Seiko, Pentax, Zeiss, etc) and how usefull/effective these coatings (AR, scratch resistance, water resistance, stain coating, impact resistance, etc) are? I'm familiar with AR coatings but the others all seem a little vague to me and it's hard to know if I'm throwing $$$ away.

How does one objectively compare these?
Pentax ASTERIA SAT UV
Seiko SSV AZ
Essilor As TL 1.67 Crizal Alize
Zeiss CARAT

Having visited 4 different eye glass stores in Kitchener/Waterloo in the last week, I've been quite disappointed with the sales staff. It is pretty clear that they are little more than fashion consultants these days. Few if any of them new the brands of the lenses they stocked without asking their technician and most didn't carry the higher-end lenses in stock. Ordering them, they wanted $CDN 350+ for the lenses and needed 2-6 weeks for delivery. If anyone has any recommendations on a good optician in the area, I'd be most greatful.

Sounds to me that you are no happy with the places, so I would check out other optical stores.

[Dave Nelson]

In Ontario, opticians must be licenced- but you may be talking to the "sales staff." Ask to speak to the OPTICIAN on the premises, not the gas-jocky-yesterday-frame-consultant-today people. You may also ask your eye doctor for a referral.

[optigrrl]

There are sooo many great products available to the consumer. You just need to find an optician who can answer your questions.

[For-Life]

In Ontario, opticians must be licenced- but you may be talking to the "sales staff." Ask to speak to the OPTICIAN on the premises, not the gas-jocky-yesterday-frame-consultant-today people. You may also ask your eye doctor for a referral.

Actually, the OD's and Opticians are not supposed to work with each other as a conflict of interest, so most OD's do not have Opticians who dispense for them, but someone else.

[jameselex]

Hi Grawil:

Sorry for your experience, I am surprised that stores in your area can offer you wait 2-6 weeks for a pair of singel vision eyeglasses, I have been in the optical business for a while, and it is not uncommon that stores don't stock high end lenses , but we are able to deliver in next day most of the time( oh, I live in Vancouver), I wish my business is in your area so I can have more happy customers. I will be happy if I can sell those lenses for $250(and I can assure you my work will be dead on for PD and no vertical imbalance, hope this won't drive my optician friends crazy).

About the lenses, you said asymetric, probably you meant aspheric, which is a technology to thin a lens furthur comparing with nomal high-index(thinner)lenses; regarding all the lenses you mentioned, I only dealt with Essilor and Nikon , but from my knowledge, all the lenses you mentioned are very good, for the coating, my personal (handled tons of lenses) oppion is Crial Alize is not very good, reason being it degrades the transmmison rate of the A/R coating(but it does give you the convenience of easy cleaning), Nikon Ice would be a better coating , it gives you the clarity and easy cleaning convenience( I am not promoting Nikon here, the lenses are good, but I don't like the company, they think they are sooo good). for your Rx, 1.67 lenses should make your eyeglasses verythin unless you choose a wide frame and wide bridge.

Hope this gives you some help.

[Chris Ryser]

Hi all,
Ordering them, they wanted $CDN 350+ for the lenses and needed 2-6 weeks for delivery. If anyone has any recommendations on a good optician in the area, I'd be most greatful.

In the Kitchener area you have the largest optical lab in Canada, K&W (Essilor owned) and in Toronto the largest lens company Centennial. Both can deliver lenses to Kitchener overnight.

If you go to an independent optician,..........and not a chain store,.......... who can order were he wants, he will get the lenses the next day.

[Jim Stone]

You should seek a retailer that offers unlimited replacement on scratched or crazed ar. Go back every couple of months and have them replaced if they get scratched. Have them replaced for sure near the end of the two year period. Don't let the time run out. There is an Essilor lab in Greensboro NC (Southern Optical) that offers unlimited two year replacements of AR lenses. (Just in case your retailer know of none). Ar is better quality now that five years ago.

[Cindy K]

You should seek a retailer that offers unlimited replacement on scratched or crazed ar. Go back every couple of months and have them replaced if they get scratched. Have them replaced for sure near the end of the two year period. Don't let the time run out. There is an Essilor lab in Greensboro NC (Southern Optical) that offers unlimited two year replacements of AR lenses. (Just in case your retailer know of none). Ar is better quality now that five years ago.

I'm sorry Jim but I need to interject here: would you, if you parked your car under a tree that dripped sap onto it, return to your dealership to claim 'warranty' on the paint job? Or call the contractor who installed the windows in your home to claim 'warranty' if you inadvertantly smashed one with a rock whilst mowing your grass? Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it; who would attempt to claim warranty for such occurrances? Would your car dealership or contractor warranty such things? No they most certainly would not! Why should a lens manufacturer be held responsible for the accidents or neglect of the eyewear purchaser?

Certainly there are different qualities and degrees of abrasion resistant coating, that is established. When discussing lens options, I always without fail advise the client the differences between different lens brands; their coatings and the lens material itself will influence the abrasion resistance of the product. I also advise them fully on the proper care and attention that is required for their eyewear to provide them with a few years of wear. And I make it known to them that the warranty is valid on manufacturer's defects only, not on own damage, and that is exactly what scratching and lens crazing is. Now, should the coating degrade due to faulty manufacture, that is evidenced by the 'spot peeling' of the AR, that is warrantied. A crazed lens has been exposed to excessive heat. Simple as that. A scratched lens has been dropped or wiped with an abrasive element on the surface. Simple as that. Our dispensary was not involved in the mishap that occurred to produce these 'flaws'.

To offer an unconditional, totally free 'warranty' on an optical product only reduces the value of the product, and I'm certain that all opticians out there struggle on a daily basis with the perceived notion of eyewear consumers that their glasses are a valueless commodity that can be mistreated and abused and its' all our fault and we should look after their mishaps with a smile and without further charge. That is not what retail is about.

[Jim Stone]

I'm sorry Jim but I need to interject here: would you, if you parked your car under a tree that dripped sap onto it, return to your dealership to claim 'warranty' on the paint job? Or call the contractor who installed the windows in your home to claim 'warranty' if you inadvertantly smashed one with a rock whilst mowing your grass? Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it; who would attempt to claim warranty for such occurrances? Would your car dealership or contractor warranty such things? No they most certainly would not! Why should a lens manufacturer be held responsible for the accidents or neglect of the eyewear purchaser?

Certainly there are different qualities and degrees of abrasion resistant coating, that is established. When discussing lens options, I always without fail advise the client the differences between different lens brands; their coatings and the lens material itself will influence the abrasion resistance of the product. I also advise them fully on the proper care and attention that is required for their eyewear to provide them with a few years of wear. And I make it know to them that the warranty is valid on manufacturer's defects only, not on own damage, and that is exactly what scratching and lens crazing is. Now, should the coating degrade due to faulty manufacture, that is evidenced by the 'spot peeling' of the AR, that is warrantied. A crazed lens has been exposed to excessive heat. Simple as that. A scratched lens has been dropped or wiped with an abrasive element on the surface. Simple as that. Our dispensary was not involved in the mishap that occurred to produce these 'flaws'.

To offer an unconditional, totally free 'warranty' on an optical product only reduces the value of the product, and I'm certain that all opticians out there struggle on a daily basis with the perceived notion of eyewear consumers that their glasses are a valueless commodity that can be mistreated and abused and its' all our fault and we should look after their mishaps with a smile and without further charge. That is not what retail is about.

The desired effect! Thank you Cindy!

[Cindy K]

Actually, the OD's and Opticians are not supposed to work with each other as a conflict of interest, so most OD's do not have Opticians who dispense for them, but someone else.

In BC, an OD can employ an Optician but an Optician cannot employ an OD. Is it different in Ontario?

[Chris Ryser]

To offer an unconditional, totally free 'warranty' on an optical product only reduces the value of the product, and I'm certain that all opticians out there struggle on a daily basis with the perceived notion of eyewear consumers that their glasses are a valueless commodity that can be mistreated and abused and its' all our fault and we should look after their mishaps with a smile and without further charge. That is not what retail is about.

Cindy K, ..........I just hope you continue regular posting on the optiboard because we need some good sound arguments like yours.

These warranties have been a manufacturers invention to increase sales of high and overpriced items............and not to give the consumer a break.

[For-Life]

In BC, an OD can employ an Optician but an Optician cannot employ an OD. Is it different in Ontario?

Yes

The Opticians in my area who have gone to work for OD's have been forced to drop their licenses. Actually, at least the chains here have a lot of licenses.

[Cindy K]

Yes

The Opticians in my area who have gone to work for OD's have been forced to drop their licenses. Actually, at least the chains here have a lot of licenses.

Forced by whom, the Optometric Act (or whatever is may be called in your province) or the individual OD's themselves?

[For-Life]

Forced by whom, the Optometric Act (or whatever is may be called in your province) or the individual OD's themselves?

The Optometric Act

[grawil]

regarding all the lenses you mentioned, I only dealt with Essilor and Nikon , but from my knowledge, all the lenses you mentioned are very good, for the coating, my personal (handled tons of lenses) opion is Crial Alize is not very good, reason being it degrades the transmmison rate of the A/R coating(but it does give you the convenience of easy cleaning), Nikon Ice would be a better coating , it gives you the clarity and easy cleaning convenience( I am not promoting Nikon here, the lenses are good, but I don't like the company, they think they are sooo good). for your Rx, 1.67 lenses should make your eyeglasses verythin unless you choose a wide frame and wide bridge.

Thanks to all who have replied, and in particular jameselex. This is the sort of reply I was hoping for... un-biased advice based on experience by someone who isn't just looking at me as another 'sale'. With regards to the Nikon ICE vs the Crial Alize coatings, I've read the exact opposite...

Thanks to Chris for pointing out that delivery probably shouldn't take so long in this area. This is exactly the info that I was looking for.

Two of the independent-looking shops I visited tried to convince me that higher index lenses were really a waste for a -3.75 Rx, stating that their in-house lenses are just as good, can be made in less than 2 hrs and they'll even apply an easy-clean coating for no charge. However, they both suggested that lightweight, titanium frames are the best if you wear glasses all day.

With regards to price, I'm certainly not a 'cheap' person when it comes to buying glasses and fully expect to spend a some money on lenses here. At the same time, I don't like being an uneducated consumer-- I'm a scientist by profession and research most of my purchases before deciding. I suppose my biggest problem is that I moved from Richmond, BC a few years back and now must find an optician that I trust here. I visited a trendy we don't display prices on frames store yesterday which actually locked the display case while I was trying on a pair of frames from it. Perhaps my khakis just didn't impress him; that or he'd already sold his quota for the day. I don't know what it is, but I've really been unimpressed by the places I've visited.

Thanks to those who have offered helpful replies,
Graham

[For-Life]

Hi Grawil:

Sorry for your experience, I am surprised that stores in your area can offer you wait 2-6 weeks for a pair of singel vision eyeglasses, I have been in the optical business for a while, and it is not uncommon that stores don't stock high end lenses , but we are able to deliver in next day most of the time( oh, I live in Vancouver), I wish my business is in your area so I can have more happy customers. I will be happy if I can sell those lenses for $250(and I can assure you my work will be dead on for PD and no vertical imbalance, hope this won't drive my optician friends crazy).

About the lenses, you said asymetric, probably you meant aspheric, which is a technology to thin a lens furthur comparing with nomal high-index(thinner)lenses; regarding all the lenses you mentioned, I only dealt with Essilor and Nikon , but from my knowledge, all the lenses you mentioned are very good, for the coating, my personal (handled tons of lenses) oppion is Crial Alize is not very good, reason being it degrades the transmmison rate of the A/R coating(but it does give you the convenience of easy cleaning), Nikon Ice would be a better coating , it gives you the clarity and easy cleaning convenience( I am not promoting Nikon here, the lenses are good, but I don't like the company, they think they are sooo good). for your Rx, 1.67 lenses should make your eyeglasses verythin unless you choose a wide frame and wide bridge.

Hope this gives you some help.

The Alize has a higher advertised light tranmission than the HCC. From what I read Nikon's is 98.9 and Alize is 99.2. Furthermore, the D Alize is 99.6, and is a lot clearer.

[jameselex]

:hammer: Hi Grawil:

I don't have knowledge about the durability on Ice or Alize, I never sold either of these two to customers( I don't like neither of them, because I think the whole point of A/R coating is to improve the light transimission, but Ice or Alize reduce that, eventhough they make the lenses easy to clean, I'd rather have a "harder" to clean but crystal clear lens rather than a easy to clean but not as clear lens, it's just my personal prefference). but I do know the HCC, which is the regular Nikon A/R coating, lasts really long; I talked to a lab technician who strips a/r coating for stores, she leaves Nikon HCC coated lens in the acid overnight(I dought there is a need for that though) comparing 20 seconds for other brands.

Again, I hope this won't offend those ICE or Alize fans, I work in this industry and I wear Crizal a/r , not Alize,(even though I can get it free) on my lenses.
I work in a rather clean enviroment, so cleaning the lenses is not a problem.

You don't really need 1.67 lenses for a Rx of -3.75, but it will really make your eyeglasses beautiful if money is not a huge issue for you.

[For-Life]

:hammer: Hi Grawil:

I don't have knowledge about the durability on Ice or Alize, I never sold either of these two to customers( I don't like neither of them, because I think the whole point of A/R coating is to improve the light transimission, but Ice or Alize reduce that, eventhough they make the lenses easy to clean, I'd rather have a "harder" to clean but crystal clear lens rather than a easy to clean but not as clear lens, it's just my personal prefference). but I do know the HCC, which is the regular Nikon A/R coating, lasts really long; I talked to a lab technician who strips a/r coating for stores, she leaves Nikon HCC coated lens in the acid overnight(I dought there is a need for that though) comparing 20 seconds for other brands.

Again, I hope this won't offend those ICE or Alize fans, I work in this industry and I wear Crizal a/r , not Alize,(even though I can get it free) on my lenses.
I work in a rather clean enviroment, so cleaning the lenses is not a problem.

You don't really need 1.67 lenses for a Rx of -3.75, but it will really make your eyeglasses beautiful if money is not a huge issue for you.

How do Alize and ICE reduce light transmission?

[Jim Stone]

Chris Ryser vbmenu_register("postmenu_142448", true);
Master OptiBoarder
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Naples, soon migrating back to Canada
Posts: 5,477


unconditional, totally free 'warranty' on an optical product only reduces the value
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy K
To offer an unconditional, totally free 'warranty' on an optical product only reduces the value of the product, and I'm certain that all opticians out there struggle on a daily basis with the perceived notion of eyewear consumers that their glasses are a valueless commodity that can be mistreated and abused and its' all our fault and we should look after their mishaps with a smile and without further charge. That is not what retail is about.




Am I wrong? Does anyone here know , does Southern Optical offer this type of warranty or not? Customers have been telling my this for a long time.

[jameselex]

About alize/ice reducing light transmition, I have no numbers to prove my point, but you can put one lens with regular Crizal coating and one with Alize coating together, just look at them, maybe you can see the difference;samething goes with Nikon HCC verses Nikon Ice.

[Chris Ryser]

About alize/ice reducing light transmition, I have no numbers to prove my point, but you can put one lens with regular Crizal coating and one with Alize coating together, just look at them, maybe you can see the difference;samething goes with Nikon HCC verses Nikon Ice.

Even if you might have a point..........................the consumer does not give a hoot........the consumers hates AR coated lenses that are always dirty which reduces transmission even more.

Anf how can you beat the big corporation brainwash advertising ? Order the lenses without............if the customer wants it put it on yourself, and if he changes his opinion remove it again. Its all so easy today.

[Diane]

You should seek a retailer that offers unlimited replacement on scratched or crazed ar. Go back every couple of months and have them replaced if they get scratched. Have them replaced for sure near the end of the two year period. Don't let the time run out. There is an Essilor lab in Greensboro NC (Southern Optical) that offers unlimited two year replacements of AR lenses. (Just in case your retailer know of none). Ar is better quality now that five years ago.

Hmmmm...:hammer: and we wonder why the wholesale costs of goods continues to increase....Abuse of warranties isn't the answer. Educating the consumer of proper care and using the warranty appropriately will help to keep costs down.

Jim, tell me you did this only for discussion. Just my thoughts.

Diane

[grawil]

Hi Chris,

Just a quick question about optichemicals. Given that my first 2 degrees were in chemistry, is there a good site that explains the chemistry of these different lens coatings? For AR coatings, I imaging the manufacturer need good quality control and careful application to ensure the correct thickness while for some of the other coatings this is probably less important. Likewise, it's a safe bet that the exact forumlations of each are proprietary but they're all pretty similar chemistry. From what I've read, there isn't really one manufacturer or set of coatings that is superior to the rest.

With regards to the various polysiloxane coatings (Rain X included), could a consumer apply these coatings themselves to glasses or do these require special application beyond careful, timed dipping? How does, for example, the Crystal clear guard compare with the major manufacturer's coatings? Can these be applied to any modern AR coated, 1.6-1.7 lens? I notice that optichemicals.com really only sells in volumes suitible for an optician... are smaller volumes availible?

Cheers,
Graham

[Chris Ryser]

Hi Chris,
Just a quick question about optichemicals. Given that my first 2 degrees were in chemistry, is there a good site that explains the chemistry of these different lens coatings?

Hi Graham,.............my own website at http://optochemicals.com provides plenty of information on the subject, mainly directed to the optical retailer and consumers. There must be at least 25 pages out of over 300, dealing with the subject. Just scroll down the main page and you will find pleanty of links to these pages.

With regards to the various polysiloxane coatings (Rain X included), could a consumer apply these coatings themselves to glasses or do these require special application beyond careful, timed dipping?

I don't think the consumer could or should do it. It still needs the knowdledge of a little more of the touch of an optician or optical technician. If not properly applied, the right material for such coatings will polymerize and provide smears that are only remmovable with the proper means.

How does, for example, the Crystal clear guard compare with the major manufacturer's coatings? Can these be applied to any modern AR coated, 1.6-1.7 lens? I notice that optichemicals.com really only sells in volumes suitible for an optician... are smaller volumes availible?
Cheers,
Graham

A version of the Crystal Clear Guard (marketed since 1991) has been used for many years by just about many major optical corporations from Essilor to Sola and still is used in many locations from Europe to China. Crystal Clear Guard is still the only product of it's kind that also provides anti-fog properties besides all the others that are advertised by the major corporations.

However some manufacturers have switched to evaporating the material in the vacuum chamber which eliminates the extra step of dipping. We also supply concentrates for that purpose.

The product can be applied to any lens, of any make or any material you want. Once fully cured it is not removable by solvent like alcohols or acetone ect.

Crystal Clear Guard is only sold to opticians and the optical trade either direct or through distributors, also it is used in the electronics and fibreoptic industries as well as by optical instrument manufacturers.