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Thread: Varilux Physio comments & feedback please

  1. #26
    Allen Weatherby
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    What is typical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Meister View Post
    As stated earlier, Varilux Physio 360 uses a traditional semi-finished front surface with an optimized Rx back surface that is produced using a typical free-form generating and polishing process.
    Darryl: What do you consider as typical free-form generating and polishing?

  2. #27
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    How good is Physio?

    I do work for Essilor, so my opinion may not be as valued by some. But I have sold glasses for 8 years before working here and recently put my husband who used to wear FT's in a Physio and he says that the distance is great and has adapted very well. So, besides all of the training I have recieved on the product, I now really believe in Physio even more.:o

  3. #28
    One eye sees, the other feels OptiBoard Silver Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Robert:

    Would you care to summarize what you've uncovered, if it's in summary form?
    Here's a list of all the lenses available in the U.S., along with power ranges and material options, including some info on lens design.

    http://img15.imgspot.com/u/07/74/13/PALs0101174070311.jpg

    On some browsers you may have to enlarge the image to see more detail. IE7 works fine.

    I just had a new refraction- I'm going to try at least two of these lenses, three or four if I can get a decent discount.

    Regards,

    Regards,
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.



  4. #29
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    Darryl: What do you consider as typical free-form generating and polishing?
    "Typical" free-form surfacing involves a CNC, single-point diamond-turning process followed by a CNC soft lap polishing process. I would say that the most common processes for spectacle lenses utilize a Schneider HSC (101, Smart, Master, etc.) for surfacing and a Schneider CPP for polishing. There are obviously a lot of machines out there from vendors like Satisloh and DAC, as well.
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  5. #30
    Allen Weatherby
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    Typical Freeform?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Meister View Post
    "Typical" free-form surfacing involves a CNC, single-point diamond-turning process followed by a CNC soft lap polishing process. I would say that the most common processes for spectacle lenses utilize a Schneider HSC (101, Smart, Master, etc.) for surfacing and a Schneider CPP for polishing. There are obviously a lot of machines out there from vendors like Satisloh and DAC, as well.
    Darryl: I see you were referring to the mechanics of the process and not the design.

    For those not that familiar with freeform lenses, they require a combination of a lens design and the freeform lens processing as Darryl described above.

  6. #31
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    Darryl: I see you were referring to the mechanics of the process and not the design.
    Secifically, I was referring to lens surfacing using common free-form generators and polishers, which is independent of the design. You can, for instance, surface a basic sphere using a free-form generator. Ultimately, "free-form" describes nothing more than a manufacturing platform.

    I also don't really agree with the use of "free-form" as a meaningful description of lens designs (in fact, all progressive lenses are technically "free-form" surfaces). Use of this term in such a way has unfortunately made it synonymous with premium, customized lens designs. While several products in the marketplace made using free-form surfacing offer advanced lens designs that have been truly customized for the individual wearer, not all so-called "free-form" lenses are customized -- or even superior to traditional, semi-finished lenses. This allows a lens supplier to hide inferior technology and application behind the "free-form badge."
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  7. #32
    Allen Weatherby
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    Freeform means?

    Darryl Meister said:
    I also don't really agree with the use of "free-form" as a meaningful description of lens designs (in fact, all progressive lenses are technically "free-form" surfaces). Use of this term in such a way has unfortunately made it synonymous with premium, customized lens designs. While several products in the marketplace made using free-form surfacing offer advanced lens designs that have been truly customized for the individual wearer, not all so-called "free-form" lenses are customized -- or even superior to traditional, semi-finished lenses. This allows a lens supplier to hide inferior technology and application behind the "free-form badge."
    I agree with Darryl and see that there is much confusion over the words, Freeform and Wavefront in todays lens marketing.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWTECH View Post
    I agree with Darryl and see that there is much confusion over the words, Freeform and Wavefront in todays lens marketing.

    I totally agree with these guys. It is really amazing how cloudy and murky the use of these terms has made this. It is amazing how many "Opticians" don't have a clue.

    But, I guess that could be the goal. Marketing has once again confused the buyers and they really don't know what they are TRULY getting.

    Its a shame.

  9. #34
    Allen Weatherby
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    Another example

    Fezz said:
    I totally agree with these guys. It is really amazing how cloudy and murky the use of these terms has made this. It is amazing how many "Opticians" don't have a clue.

    But, I guess that could be the goal. Marketing has once again confused the buyers and they really don't know what they are TRULY getting.

    Its a shame.
    NOT DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC OF THIS THREAD:
    To your point the new 20/20 has an add by Essilor for their new sunlens Crizal AR. The add reads like they invented backside AR for a sun lens. My company ICE-TECH introduced this on our products over 10 years ago.

    But many people see something in print and take it for fact.

  10. #35
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Article on the free form process Here
    1st* HTML5 Tracer Software
    1st Mac Compatible Tracer Software
    1st Linux Compatible Tracer Software

    *Dave at OptiVision has a web based tracer integration package that's awesome.

  11. #36
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    Crizal Sun

    I haven't seen the ad, but for the Crizal Sun, what we were told is that Essilor tried to determine why patient's did not like AR on their sun lenses and how to best use AR on Sun lenses. They came up with a backside AR and a front side TD-2 (scratch resistance) so as not to change the apperance of the front surface and the other complaint found on their research was that a polarized lens reduces glare and doesn't need anti reflective coating on top of it. The major difference to me in Crizal Sun and a regular lens with backside AR, is just the quality of the AR and the quality of the scratch resistance. I had a pair very similar made before from an optical place that I worked for that had backside AR and was polarized and it was cheap AR and very easy to scratch. :o

  12. #37
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    For your husband try a little more tilt on his frame, from my own experence and that of colleagues this makes all the difference, the same goes for all apsheric PALs

  13. #38
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    Physio 360 - why the accusations?

    Quote Originally Posted by doclabs View Post
    Physio 360 (among many others)

    With respect to essilor claiming their fix higher order abberations well, its a marketing lie. Why? You need to know what you are correcting for. You need an abberometer which measures a persons eye and the higher order abberations therein Cheers,

    doclabs
    I admit that I am an absolute novice to positng on sights, I am usually content to just read. However, I have now seen a number of such comments and I feel I need to respond. I have no qualms about disclosing that I was an optometrist for 10 years and for the last 18years have worked for Essilor in various roles in Australia, France and now as Director of Professional Services for Asia Pacific. I know very well and worked closely with many of the scientists who work in the physiological and visual optics area of our R & D.

    There are several points to address so I will take them one by one:

    Aberrometry is not restricted to the eye, it originated from astronomy where it is used to clarify images from space seen through telescopes. When that same principle is applied to progressives, you can create a surface that corrects the wavefront as it passes through the lens reducing the aberrations that are normally generated by the progressive surface itself. Unlike aberrometry of the eye it can be done for many directions of gaze.

    It is irrelevant if this surface is moulded or generated, it can be done either way, so long as the moulds are created using a "free-form" or digital direct surfacing machine that can replicate the wavefront corrected surface on the mould. We have used digital surfacing of moulds for more than 10 years and now apply that esperience to lens surfacing as well.

    Remember that spectacle lenses are considered thin lenses, the wearer sees only the resultant vergences created by the two surfaces. Where they are positioned or when they are created doesn't matter, the resultant output does. This is why it is critical at the practitoner level that fitting is performed systematically, their role is to finish the process that is started by the manufacturer, correct fitting maximises the final output.

    One thing I would like to undrstand is why the accusations? From my experience with the company and my close relationship with our R & D team Essilor is, like many French companies, steeped deeply in technology and innovation, R & D attracts far more of our budget than marketing 'lies'. The fact is that the market quickly decides what is innovation and what isn't. I've had the pleasure to dscuss at length with Bernard Maitenaz, he told me that when he launched Varilux 1 in 1959 there were more than 60 papers saying that the product was BS and would never work. It seems that that some things never change.

    Best Regards

    Tim

  14. #39
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    Welcome to the 'Board, Tim. I agree with your comments, but I wanted to pose some additional points that may further clarify this topic.

    Aberrometry is not restricted to the eye, it originated from astronomy where it is used to clarify images from space seen through telescopes.
    I've never actually seen the use of the word aberrometer or aberrometry outside of eye care, so it would probably be useful to distinguish between so-called aberrometers and wavefront sensors, in general. Commercial "aberrometers" use a wavefront sensor to measure ocular wavefront aberrations, but you generally wouldn't refer to the wavefront sensor of a telescope--used in conjunction with an adaptive optics system to cancel atmospheric turbulence--as an "aberrometer."

    When that same principle is applied to progressives, you can create a surface that corrects the wavefront as it passes through the lens reducing the aberrations that are normally generated by the progressive surface itself. Unlike aberrometry of the eye it can be done for many directions of gaze.
    I think there is a bit of a misconception here as to the type of wavefront aberrations we deal with in progressive lens design. Because of the inherent changes in Add power and unwanted astigmatism in a progressive, a progressive lens surface produces certain levels of higher-order aberrations (specifically, aberrations similar to coma and trefoil). This is simply a consequence of the progressive change in power. As long as you have a finite pupil size, and a change in mean power or astigmatism across that pupil, you will introduce coma or trefoil.

    Further, you cannot eliminate the higher-order aberrations produced by a progressive lens surface, just as you cannot eliminate the unwanted astigmatism in the periphery. But you can judiciously manage both. And, just as there are two general approaches to the management of unwanted astigmatism, by either spreading it out to "soften" the design or confining it to smaller regions to "harden" the design, there are also two intimately related approaches to the management of higher-order aberrations. A "softer" lens design, for instance, will frequently produce relatively low levels of higher-order aberrations over the entire lens, while a "harder" lens design can produce lower levels of higher-order aberrations in the central distance and near viewing zones at the expense of higher levels around the viewing zone boundaries and in the progressive corridor.

    In any event, traditional progressive lenses are not designed to minimize the higher-order wavefront aberrations produced by the wearer's own eye. First of all, there are several technical limitations involved because of the fact that the eye rotates behind the lens and higher-order aberrations do not possess the symmetry of the lower-order aberrations (i.e., traditional sphere and cylinder errors). Secondly, aberrometry data from the actual wearer's eyes need to be captured before any wavefront correction could be applied. And I believe that this was probably doclabs's point. That said, it is certainly possible to minimize the higher-order aberrations produced by the progressive lens, itself, by optimizing the lens design accordingly, which is the heart of Essilor's claim.
    Last edited by Darryl Meister; 04-02-2007 at 07:38 PM.
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

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    physio clinical trials

    I see that Physio increases contrast sensitivity by up to 30%. Are there clinical trials or research on this?

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    I did speak to our R & D team about this and I can't remember if they were internal measures or outside, I'll get back on that one.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter DragonLensmanWV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWTECH View Post
    Fezz said:

    NOT DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC OF THIS THREAD:
    To your point the new 20/20 has an add by Essilor for their new sunlens Crizal AR. The add reads like they invented backside AR for a sun lens. My company ICE-TECH introduced this on our products over 10 years ago.

    But many people see something in print and take it for fact.
    Essilor did have their finished plano Sunfree lenses at least that long ago. Mirrored frontside, backside AR.
    I still have a pair in my plano drawer.
    DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
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  18. #43
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    I am confused, and would like Darryl to explain to me how it is that, according to the recent 20/20 CE article/advertisement, the physio is customized to the frame and the wearer? If you look at the illustrations, it's just the same picture altered to give the appearance that the lens has been "customized," and further the lens isn't truly "free form" in the sense that the Autograph or Succeed is.
    I could be horribly, tragically wrong, which is why I ask that DM enlighten me.

  19. #44
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    I am confused, and would like Darryl to explain to me how it is that, according to the recent 20/20 CE article/advertisement, the physio is customized to the frame and the wearer?
    Are you sure it wasn't referring to the Varilux Physio 360 (with the free-form surface) or the new Accolade Freedom design?
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  20. #45
    ATO Member OPTIDONN's Avatar
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    Welcome Tim!! Enjoyed your post! I feel I understand the concept of higher order aberrations but I need a good explanation as to why they are called "higher order" and why are some called "3rd order" and how many are there to be exact!

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    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    Enjoyed your post! I feel I understand the concept of higher order aberrations but I need a good explanation as to why they are called "higher order" and why are some called "3rd order" and how many are there to be exact!
    The "orders" represent the terms of a mathematical power and/or Fourier series expansion (most commonly, Zernike functions), and go on indefinitely. Though, for "normal" eyes at least, the wavefront aberrations of the eye can be adequately described using no more than the fifth or sixth orders.

    Each order indicates the dependence of the wavefront aberration on pupil size; the "second" order aberrations (modes) vary with the square of the pupil radius, "third" order aberrations vary with the cube of the pupil radius, and so on.

    Lower order terms refer to the traditional sphere (referred to as defocus) and cylinder components (referred to as astigmatism at 45 and at 180) of a typical eyeglass prescription. These are the second order terms. Any wavefront aberration mode above these second order terms (that is, third order or greater) is considered a higher order term. These include aberrations like coma (3rd), trefoil (3rd), spherical aberration (4th), etcetera. Higher order terms cannot be corrected by a simple sphero-cylindrical correction.
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

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    ATO Member OPTIDONN's Avatar
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    Thanks Darryl. Makes a bit more sense to me. I tried to ask that question on www.physicsforums.com and was even more confused. Nothing like some 13 year old genius to make you feel good about yourself :( .

  23. #48
    Allen Weatherby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Meister View Post
    The "orders" represent the terms of a mathematical power and/or Fourier series expansion (most commonly, Zernike functions), and go on indefinitely. Though, for "normal" eyes at least, the wavefront aberrations of the eye can be adequately described using no more than the fifth or sixth orders.

    Each order indicates the dependence of the wavefront aberration on pupil size; the "second" order aberrations (modes) vary with the square of the pupil radius, "third" order aberrations vary with the cube of the pupil radius, and so on.

    Lower order terms refer to the traditional sphere (referred to as defocus) and cylinder components (referred to as astigmatism at 45 and at 180) of a typical eyeglass prescription. These are the second order terms. Any wavefront aberration mode above these second order terms (that is, third order or greater) is considered a higher order term. These include aberrations like coma (3rd), trefoil (3rd), spherical aberration (4th), etcetera. Higher order terms cannot be corrected by a simple sphero-cylindrical correction.
    Congradulations to Darryl Meister on his short yet very well rounded understandable explaination of high order abberations. What I like best about his explaination is that most of the Optiboard readers can understand this, unlike some of the marketing driven pitchs using buzz words that no one in the company can explain.

  24. #49
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    The performance of Varilux Physio 360 can not compare with Zeiss Gradal Individual.

    If you believe in Essilor and would like to get trouble , try to fit Physio 360 on Zeiss Gradal Individual's wearer. You will see the truth. ( Don't forget to think about how to refund the money to the wearers when they don't want to keep Physio 360 and who have to pay for useless lenses ).
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    Promsed reply

    Quote Originally Posted by kapthree View Post
    I see that Physio increases contrast sensitivity by up to 30%. Are there clinical trials or research on this?
    Sorry for the late response, been a bit busy to look at the forum. The measures are simulations done by our R & D, measuring the gain in the contrast sensitivity function averaged across a particular lens e.g in this case Physio versus Panamic and for varing pupil sizes. I was sent a whole powerpoint about it by Celine Carimalo the chief researcher on Physio.

    Hope this helps.

    Regards

    Tim

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