Complaints about distortion an progressives...................................

[Chris Ryser]

Maybe its time again to have another thread on the subject of distortion on progressive lenses.

No one is interested in a line, no one is interested in bifocals, No one is interested in progressives, no one is even interested in glasses. These are tools to do the job with. If you want to see peripherally well get a line and be dissinterested, you will see.
This is much like useing the proper sized and designed wrench to turn a bolt. Sure sometimes pliers or vice-grips will do the job, but the right tool will do the job right.

Opticians, either they do not know,..........or by greed............or the patient wants them because of brainwash publicity by the manufacturers, and the optician does not object and warn the patients about the drawbacks of progressive lenses.

As practical they can be, they do have do have some negative points.......mainly the lateral distortion tha can be bothersome to some people. Opticians would have happy customers if they would forewarn the of this mentioned facts and then let them make the choice,

[cinders831]

Maybe its time again to have another thread on the subject of distortion on progressive lenses.



Opticians, either they do not know,..........or by greed............or the patient wants them because of brainwash publicity by the manufacturers, and the optician does not object and warn the patients about the drawbacks of progressive lenses.

As practical they can be, they do have do have some negative points.......mainly the lateral distortion tha can be bothersome to some people. Opticians would have happy customers if they would forewarn the of this mentioned facts and then let them make the choice,

Chris,
I understand your sentiment, I regularly fit progressive lenses with great success. I also fit d-28, d-35's with success. Some opticians (me) educate each pt about the drawbacks of each lens, speak to them about what they will be using the lenses for and make educated recommendations. All the while educating the pt on each lens feature. The pt is the one able to choose and ultimately what ever they decide I can be wholly satisfied that my pt selected something that they think will work best based on our conversation. You see were not all money hungry progressive pushers. We are educaters and pts do normally pick the progressive option. When fit properly and educated about the lens designs we end up with happy pts. Sorry for the rant.

[Chris Ryser]

We are educaters and pts do normally pick the progressive option. When fit properly and educated about the lens designs we end up with happy pts.

I am glad you show a good attitude and I am sure if you practise it you will not end up with re-dos and non adapts.

When you say we, do you mean yourself, your company or the whole optical retail world?

[cinders831]

I am glad you show a good attitude and I am sure if you practise it you will not end up with re-dos and non adapts.

When you say we, do you mean yourself, your company or the whole optical retail world?

I mean our practice, surely the whole optical world isnt on the same page. If it were our business wouldnt be as good. People love honest opticians abd we get a lot of referrals for that.

[drk]

Chris: for better or for worse, this is a true statement:

"The optical industry is in love with progressives."

Do we buck the trend or go along with it?

I particularly struggle with progressives in sunwear.

On the one hand:
1.) It's nice to give a +1.50 presbyope some near vision for signing the scorecard and dialing the cell phone

OTOH:
1.) Progressives, especially polarized, with poly (which is great for sunwear, IMO) is muy expensivo. (Sometimes difficult to find a frame that justifies such nice lenses!)

2.) "If it ain't wrapped, it ain't cool". Everything is wrap optics, now, and wrapping a progressive isn't smart. I guess Shamir's wrap-optimized progressives fit the bill, but why Piccolo in polar poly and Genesis in 1.6/1.6 Transitions? Are they trying to tell us to use the short corridor fit low, and use the Genesis for wrapped dress ophthalmic frames?

The main point is that wrapping a progressive only screws up the distance vision that much more. And isn't distance vision what sunglasses are really for?

Heck, maybe I should push 6-base fronts a little more...maybe ophthalmic versions of lines that have sunwear, to avoid the geek factor , maybe Oakley Ophthalmic or Nike Ophthalmic (Yeah, I know, they have Rx programs for their sunwear...but what do they know about optics, anyway? Sola's helping Marchon, I guess, in SV, but what about progressives?)


Sorry I hijacked. Just stay in your seats and nobody gets hurt.

[shellrob]

Cinders, I'm with ya, I ecucate, educate, and educate. I too fit everything depending on what's going to work for the patient. I don't give the patient false hope or unrealistic expectations. I think that's why we're successful at fitting them. I have a very low non-adapt rate.


I find the hardest patient to fit is the one that's been unsuccessful because of a poor fitting by another optician. They tried it before and it didn't work. They weren't educated because I'm betting the person fitting them didn't even know how to explain things because they themselves didn't know a lot about the lens. I was that person 10 years ago doing the fitting. I still to this day don't know why anyone bought glasses from me. I didn't know anything when I started out. That's a big problem around here I find.

[Happylady]

What about warning our patients about the drawbacks of flattops? I had a patient today tell me that she hates wearing her sunglasses because she did them with a flattop to save money and the line and the jump really bug her. She sees the line. She told me that she loves her progressives, that they are so much better.

[chip anderson]

Happy, you have a problem with (plastic) flat top sunglasses. Unless you frost the ledge (as I described in an earlier post) you will have patients complaining of glare from the ledge which is more bothersome than the ledge. This is not a problem with glass flat-top shades as there is no ledge.

Chip

[Happylady]

Happy, you have a problem with (plastic) flat top sunglasses. Unless you frost the ledge (as I described in an earlier post) you will have patients complaining of glare from the ledge which is more bothersome than the ledge. This is not a problem with glass flat-top shades as there is no ledge.

Chip

I'm not sure if the problem she had was glare or not. She just commented to me that the line bothered her.

What is frosting the ledge? I have never heard of this. I almost never do glass lenses, maybe once a month.

I have had other patients that have worn both progressives and flattops tell me they perfer progressives. One man is a pilot and he perfers his 8 by 35 trifocals for flying. For EVERYTHING else he perfers his progressives even at the computer.

This surprised me tell he explained that with his trifocals he had to be exactly a certain distance from the computer to use the trifocal but with the progressive he just adjusts his head slightly for any distance.

[chip anderson]

To frost edge on a flat top you must mask everything except the area you wish to frost with tape. Get some copus cloth and very, very carefully sand the ledge until it no longer shines.


Chip:cheers:

[Dd]

As a consumer about to go into my first pair of progressives and concerned about this issue, I've asked a couple progressive wearers about the distortion. It's only a survey of two, but neither had any idea what I was talking about. They moved their eyes from side to side but couldn't see any.

[Chris Ryser]

Chris: for better or for worse, this is a true statement:

"The optical industry is in love with progressives."

drk..................you are so right. That has been true ever since their inception in the late 50's and I was still working in the retail family business. I sold myself many hundreds of the at the time, but we did a good job with them. There was no return and non adapt warranties.

Therfore we had to sell them to the patients we knew could wear them and make sure that the questionable cases would NOT choose them. Therefore we had no returns and no non adapts. That is still practised these days in that business.

The warranties have made the optical retail world go "happy go lucky", if it dont work we lost nothing way of thinking.

I am wondering what would happen if all the corporations that are pushing these highly expensive lenses would change policy and revert to NO MORE WARRANTY. You the optical retailer takes the blame for everything, because yopu should have known. :D

[Mikef]

I am wondering what would happen if all the corporations that are pushing these highly expensive lenses would change policy and revert to NO MORE WARRANTY. You the optical retailer takes the blame for everything, because yopu should have known. :D

What would happen is Independents would not be able to take a chance selling too many customers and they would all lose tons of income because of it. The big stores could take more chances.

Warranty is a great thing! For your bottom-line that is!

[Happylady]

Chris how do you know for SURE that someone will be a non adapt? If you only will fit those you are sure will like them (and again how can you be sure) then there are lots of your patients that you are talking out of progressives that would be happy with them.

What % of your patients do you put in flattops and what % in progressives?

I think we pay for the warranties, it is included in the price of progressives. So I don't mind using them since I feel I am paying more for the progressives in the first place. We don't have many nonadapts and we fit proabably 9 progressives to 1 flattop.

In my office we have 6 people wearing progressives happily and one wearing flattops. She tried progressives many years ago and wasn't happy. I would love for her to try some of the newer progressives. She really isn't happy with her flattop bifocals either.

[efsamuel]

Maybe its time again to have another thread on the subject of distortion on progressive lenses.



Opticians, either they do not know,..........or by greed............or the patient wants them because of brainwash publicity by the manufacturers, and the optician does not object and warn the patients about the drawbacks of progressive lenses.

As practical they can be, they do have do have some negative points.......mainly the lateral distortion tha can be bothersome to some people. Opticians would have happy customers if they would forewarn the of this mentioned facts and then let them make the choice,

Part of the non warning that is given I know has to do with the "we must see as many as we can" additude and not spend the amount of time needed with each Pt. If you are in an enviroment where education is primary then you should have no problems with fitting ANY type of lens. You can discuss lifestyle with the pt to help the Pt make an informed choice.

Chris I know you love the FT's but I tell you this I have a group of retired nuns we see them all in the course of the year. After one had her cat surgury she asked about the no line bifocal. She had heard and seen it and wanted to try it. We went over everything with her and she had a sucsessfull fit. Wouldn't you know it but now they are all coming in to get them after she sang the praises of the no-lines. Each one we went through and evaluated what would be the best and they are all wearing no-lines.

[Chris Ryser]

I think we pay for the warranties, it is included in the price of progressives. So I don't mind using them since I feel I am paying more for the progressives in the first place.

I think that you think the right way.

When you mold a lens, you take a frontmold and a backmold, stick the on a spacer ring and inject the monomer. Start the curing cycle and when finished you open the mold and take out the lens.

What comes out of the mold is "the lens". It makes no difference if you used a frontmold for a straight top lens. a single vision lens, or a progressive lens.

As you said...............you are paying more for the progressive lens which at the manufacturing level did not cost more than the mentioned single vision lens.

There are some reasoning that the progressive mold cost more than the others, as R&D and manufacturing ........................but then is the counter argument that these molds can be used thousands of times over and over.

The profit picture in the optical business has changed. It used to be the opticians who were the big money earners these days it looks like the real profits are made at the manufactruing level.

(I will get beaten up again for having said that one)

[QDO1]

I think that you think the right way.

When you mold a lens, you take a frontmold and a backmold, stick the on a spacer ring and inject the monomer. Start the curing cycle and when finished you open the mold and take out the lens.

What comes out of the mold is "the lens". It makes no difference if you used a frontmold for a straight top lens. a single vision lens, or a progressive lens.

As you said...............you are paying more for the progressive lens which at the manufacturing level did not cost more than the mentioned single vision lens.

There are some reasoning that the progressive mold cost more than the others, as R&D and manufacturing ........................but then is the counter argument that these molds can be used thousands of times over and over.

The profit picture in the optical business has changed. It used to be the opticians who were the big money earners these days it looks like the real profits are made at the manufactruing level.

(I will get beaten up again for having said that one)

so chris... if i took a microwave, some water, and a copy of your tints, and reproduced what you do - how would you feel? If I come on this site and said "its only a microwave, its just water and dyes you put the lens in, it comes out tinted"

so what do you say if i then said - the chemicals - Ive sources some at 1/5 the price - i mean chemicals are chemicals arnt they, cheap - they are mixed together and thats it...

post after post - you make these claims that all a lens is is moulded plastic. Post after post you fail to say that the manufacturers and designers and toolmakers etc. have made masive investements into making "that mould"

You cant have it both ways

I still maintain that the cost of a budget PAL is consumate with a moulded S/V aspheric, and D28, in terms of retail and buying finished lenses fom a supplier

[hipoptical]

The profit picture in the optical business has changed. It used to be the opticians who were the big money earners these days it looks like the real profits are made at the manufactruing level.

(I will get beaten up again for having said that one)

You only get beaten if you mean the lab as manufacturer. Lab owners are not big $$ earners. That's why many of them are still plugging away in the lab daily. They only do well when Essilor buys them out and demands they stay on at a higher wage. The actual manufacturers, who I think you're referring to, yeah they make money.

[spartus]

Wait--I think Chris is really on to something here! What we do, see, is buy only outdated technology and sell it cheaply, to keep other people from making more money than we are. I mean, who really cares about serving patient's needs--we have to screw the big guy that, that...uh...did something that Chris doesn't like.

It's genius, really. Sell enough glass FT35s to people who wanted a high-index progressive with AR, and very soon, you won't have any customers to worry about.

[C-10]

I think we all have got it wrong. We should ONLY FIT single vision lenses. The myope can remove their eyewear to see close up. The hyperope can have two pairs one for reading and one for close. Let’s looks at it. Progressives have distortion on the edges, the annoying line on flat tops lead to an image jump. We can fit glass lenses with flat tops so that you get less refection off the line, but you then you need a neck brace to keep them up. What we are talking about is a compromise with any multifocal lens. You are always going to have problems fitting different people. You can educate them and you can screen them, but you will still have problems with some people; that is the way it is.

I have trouble fitting some people with SV. So if you think you can find a solution with a multifocal lens you are the one that is NUTS

[Chris Ryser]

so what do you say if i then said - the chemicals - Ive sources some at 1/5 the price - i mean chemicals are chemicals arnt they, cheap - they are mixed together and thats it...

I think you missed the point...........................If you have sources at 1/5th the price of mine and use them ..............I can and will take you to court and sue your but for the value of your sales in this domaine for damages . I do have patent protection in the UK and just about everywhere else. Therefore can drag you into court as soon as the lawyers can arrange it, for patent infringements.

So for the next 15 years you got to behave.............after that you can do whatever you want.

Same does not apply for lens casting anymore..............patents have expired and it is a totally open market, maybe with a few protected corners.

In today's optical lens world, there is no more protection and it is an open field, If you would start getting progressive lens molds from Shamir who is one of the largest supplier of the babies to the lens casting industry and start your own lens casting business which then would not succeed.

But, you would not succed, not because the large corporations could not take you to court, but because the would counter the threat with their powerful advertising machine.
:D


-

[cinders831]

I think we all have got it wrong. We should ONLY FIT single vision lenses. The myope can remove their eyewear to see close up. The hyperope can have two pairs one for reading and one for close. Let’s looks at it. Progressives have distortion on the edges, the annoying line on flat tops lead to an image jump. We can fit glass lenses with flat tops so that you get less refection off the line, but you then you need a neck brace to keep them up. What we are talking about is a compromise with any multifocal lens. You are always going to have problems fitting different people. You can educate them and you can screen them, but you will still have problems with some people; that is the way it is.

I have trouble fitting some people with SV. So if you think you can find a solution with a multifocal lens you are the one that is NUTS

Are you even kidding me right now?!!!???

So the person working in an office greeting those walking in the door and multitasking by doing some paper work sees how with two pairs of glasses. I know your newer to the industry, you still have some to learn and clearly the thought that no multi focal ever works is one of them. People have needs for distance and near and cant wait the seconds required in switching glasses. As an optician I would go nuts if I had to change my glasses all the time. Holy Toledo I hope you were kidding.

[Jubilee]

I believe the post was in jest.. Taking the view point of Chris to a further extreme...

I personally believe there are some differences in progressive designs, my patients do as well...

I also believe that progressives aren't for everyone.. and yes some people do prefer the two pair method of 1 for reading and 1 for distance.

Patient education and interaction is what it is about.

Cassandra

[C-10]

Are you even kidding me right now?!!!???

So the person working in an office greeting those walking in the door and multitasking by doing some paper work sees how with two pairs of glasses. I know your newer to the industry, you still have some to learn and clearly the thought that no multi focal ever works is one of them. People have needs for distance and near and cant wait the seconds required in switching glasses. As an optician I would go nuts if I had to change my glasses all the time. Holy Toledo I hope you were kidding.

Am I kidding well maybe we sit here debating what is clearer pals or FTs but SV will give someone clear vision with very little distortion. What I am saying here is that. Most people can be fitted with PALs and most people can be fitted with Fts but what is best for your client you have to decided. Yes we are maybe preoccupied with fitting PALs but are that not what the consumer wants if there was not a demand for them we would not be selling so many. Take Refection free coating we all will declare how good it is but due to some poor quality coating out there we have a hard time selling them . No I am not new to the industry I have been licence for 32 years and worked in a lab six year before

[Dd]

What determines whether someone will notice distortion in a progressive?
Is it the script? It seems some people notice it in the higher end lenses and others wearing a lesser lens may not.