unclear how to sort through the choices

[i2i]

Hi everyone, I am a consumer who recently received his first prescription for progressives. I wanted to get new lenses in my current frames that I like very much (Kawasaki rimless) and the same lens size and shape (they look to be 32mm high) so I can still use my clip-ons.

My optician does not carry Kawasaki but said they could cut the lenses, and they made Varilux Ipseo for me. I wore them for about three weeks. I had poor intermediate and close vision from these and took them to a different optician who had the lens template faxed over from Varilux and put my lenses on the template -- the reading area on the template was completely below the bottom of my new lenses!

I took those back and got refunded, and now I am looking only at opticians that carry Kawasaki. My problem is that there are three I have found that carry three different lenses: Varilux Panamic, Varilux Ellipse, and Zeiss Gradal Individual. Of course, each claims theirs is the best on the market.

Could anyone be so kind as to tell me briefly the trade-offs/advantages/disadvantages/etc in comparing these three lenses? I do not have one optician who can answer this objectively for me. From my brief experience wearing the improperly-made Ipseos I am not much bothered by the blur on the peripheral vision, I just want to be able to see distance, computer, and reading. I recognize no lens will give me a full area for any one of these, I am looking for enough of each to be functional. FYI the two Varilux price out very close to each other and the Zeiss is about $50 more for Gradal and another $75 more above that for the Individual.

In addition, my old rimless lenses have yellowed considerably around the edges. One optician told me this will be true of any high-index lens regardless of manufacturer. True or false? Is one lens better than another in this regard?

Finally, the cost of these new lenses is much higher than I originally anticipated. I can get new high-index lenses and new frames and new clip-on sunglasses at Costco for about half what the above three lenses will cost. Costco says their lenses are a private brand made by Varilux but they can't use that brand name. True? If so, how do the Costco lenses compare to any of the above?

I realize there is no one "right" lens, it depends on many factors. But still, I am hoping to learn from your generosity so that I can make a more informed decision. Thanks in advance.

[Judy Canty]

i2i, realizing that you are new to OptiBoard, I'll try to be gentle. Please go back and read the posting guidelines. These kinds of consumer questions will not be answered here. Our advice is to find an eyecare professional you are comfortable with and heed their advice. We don't know you or your optical history, so cannot in good faith offer any advice.

[For-Life]

I am a little confused as to why you asked for a refund from the first person.

[i2i]

Thanks Judy. I appreciate your desire to be helpful without being insensitive. All too often in online forums people ask an innocent question and get flamed, and I am glad you are taking the high road.



Honestly I thought I was being respectful of and adhering to the posting guidelines. What I read in the guidelines, in relevant part, is:

Consumers are allowed to post on the Board, as long as the posts concern general eyecare related topics. However please be aware that any questions that involve diagnosing specific eyecare and eyewear problems are not appropriate for an online discussion forum. These kinds of questions should be discussed with a qualified eyecare professional who has examined you and is familiar with your situation. Posts asking for diagnostic help will be closed or removed.

I truly think my question is in the general eyecare category. Perhaps if I re-phrase: I am not asking for a diagnosis of an eyewear problem, I am asking how the Panamic, Ellipse, and Gradal compare for a lens 32mm in height, specifically in terms of area for distance, intermediate, and reading. I would think that these lenses can be compared regardless of my particular circumstances, such as "lens X will give the most reading area but will have the least peripheral, lens Y has a wide distance area, and lens Z is kind of in between these two." An assessment along those lines would be very helpful. I recognize that it would then be up to me to decide which may be best for my circumstances. Further, I am curious as to opinions about the lens offered by Costco, and also if the lenses yellowing at the edges are expected in all hi-index. Again, I see these as general product question unrelated to my particular circumstances.


I do not have an optician to turn to who can objectively compare these lenses this way as each has a vested interest in selling a particular one.

If after this explanation you feel I still am over the line, then I apologize and will go away.

For-Life, I asked for (and was given) a refund because the first optician made the lenses without a reading zone -- according to the template, where the reading zone is supposed to be was below the bottom of the lens, in other words left on the cutting room floor. That's why I couldn't read or see the computer screen clearly through them. I don't need to have progressives made if it's going to end up all a distance lens anyway!

Thanks all.

[Judy Canty]

Go to www.oagonline.org and ask for a referral in your area. This is the website for the Opticians Association of Georgia. There are many fine licensed Opticians in the Atlanta area who would be more than happy to help you, I'm sure.

[chip anderson]

Got to a reputable optcian. Tell him what activities you participate in, what special jobs you do that you need to see for. Then ask him: What do you think would best suit my needs?After that follow his advise and don't bother your little head about , brands, adds, etc.

Chip

[For-Life]

For-Life, I asked for (and was given) a refund because the first optician made the lenses without a reading zone -- according to the template, where the reading zone is supposed to be was below the bottom of the lens, in other words left on the cutting room floor. That's why I couldn't read or see the computer screen clearly through them. I don't need to have progressives made if it's going to end up all a distance lens anyway!

Thanks all.

Are you sure that template was correct?

[i2i]

For-Life, I did not verify the template myself. The 2nd optician I went to got the special code or serial number etched on the lens and called Varilux with that, and the manufacturer faxed over the template. That optician put little wax pencil dots on the reference points on my lens to line it up to the template.

It is tempting to speculate that the template is wrong and the lens is right, and perhaps that was the case, but the key fact is that I had virtually no intermediate or close focus from those lenses, that's what drove me to ask these questions in the first place. In fact, this 2nd optician who checked the lenses against the template had me look through +150 lens while wearing these new lenses and voila, I could read.

And frankly, the optician who made those lenses blamed everything on me at each turn. I brought in my Kawasaki frames and my prescription and asked if they could make lenses for me. She said yes. When I got them back the lenses were loose in the frame. I couldn't even attach my clip-on sunglasses because of the way the lenses sat in the frame. The optician said this was my fault, that the little clear plastic bushings or washers that fit through the lens holes were worn out and since she dies not carry Kawasaki I would have to go to another optician to get the lenses fixed. Never mind the were not loose with the old lenses. I called Itallee directly and they said they would send the parts to my optician, and when I told the optician that she said that since they don't have a Kawasaki account then the person at Itallee didn't know what he was talking about. This is the person who said he would send the parts, and she insisted he was wrong!

The night after I got the lenses I noticed my ear stem was cracked, and it wasn't cracked when I gave the frames to them to fit the lens. The optician said I must have cracked it, couldn't possibly have been her or the shipping to/from her lab. After wearing the new lenses for about a week I called to say I can't see the computer screen clearly, and she said I'm just not used to the progressives yet. I told her that I actually got used to it pretty quickly and did not find the peripheral distortion that big a deal, to which she replied that I am trying to look at the computer through the top of the lens. I told her I'm not, I am looking through the bottom half of the lens and tilting my head up and down trying to find the focal spot and could only notice the computer in better focus with my head tilted way up, looking through the bottom 1mm of the lens. She insisted I was wrong.

When the 2nd optician adjusted the frames for me and replaced the little Kawasaki parts and ear stem, I then was able to put the clip-on sunglasses, to find that the new lenses didn't fit. When I showed this to the optician who made the lenses she said that I should have given her the clip-ons to have the lenses made from, even though I asked exactly that when they were sent off to be made and she insisted that they did not need the clips. And anyway, she said, there was no way her lab could have made lenses to fit the clips perfectly, that was impossible and I should have known that. No, I don't know that, and I relied on her as the professional to tell me such things, which she never did. And never mind that my old lenses did fit the clips exactly and the other three opticians I later visited who do all sell Kawasaki said that is absolutely the expectation and is why I should get the new lenses only from an optician who carries Kawasaki. And on and on.

So, this was my experience leading up to the 2nd optician telling me that the reason I was having intermediate and close vision problems with the lenses is that they were not made correctly based on the template from the mfgr. I had had enough of the optician who made the lenses for me and felt a refund was in order -- everything was always my fault, she sent me to other opticians after I had my lenses in order to get them to fit, she said she could make the lenses to fit and could not, I couldn't see properly out of them, I just got to the point where I did not trust her ability to handle me.

And this is a very reputable optician in town. So, I've now spoken to four opticians, one of whom I have eliminated due to bad experience. The other three are all reputable but carry a lens that the others do not, so they cannot compare for me. I am looking for some general and generic comparative information on the lenses I am looking at, and I remain hopeful that someone here has that knowledge and can help me. Thanks.

[i2i]

Judy and Chip,

The website you referenced has a tab for a list of member opticians, but when I go to that it says "under construction."

I guess I am having a disconnect on the advice you are giving me. And I do appreciate your advice, I recognize I am asking for a courtesy out of the clear blue. Since you seem to want to help me, I feel I should let you know that I am not actually getting much help from your advice. And for that I apologize but I just want to be honest and respectful of your desire to help.

I don't need a list of opticians, I can find them. After dismissing my first optician I have found three others, all reputable. My problem is that each thinks that the lens they carry is the right one for me, it is their "top-of-the-line" and cannot compare to the lenses the others carry.

I know I need the advice of an optician who can compare these for me. That is exactly why I am posting these questions here, I thought I was aking opticians here for any comparative input they could provide. With full appreciation for your efforts, I am not finding it very helpful for opticians to advise me to go find an optician. If that is what you have to offer me, then I thank you. I do observe, however, that the kinds of questions I am asking have been addressed on this forum in the past, if they had not been then I would not have posted my questions.

To make an analogy, if I wanted a new luxury car and visited a Mercedes dealer, a Lexus dealer, and a BMW dealer I would get a recommendation from each that their car is the best. But there certainly are things a knowledgeable person could say about how these cars compare: one has a smoother ride, one has higher sports performance, one has more luxury bells and whistles, etc. No one can tell me which car I should drive, but knowing how they compare will help me decide what is best for me.

That is the kind of comparative information I seek about Panamic vs. Ellipse vs. Gradal. And also any opinions about the lenses Costco carries. I have not found such information from the reputable opticians I have visited. I thought someone on this forum might be able to provide it. If not, then I truly appreciate the consideration you have given me. But if there is anyone on this forum who can provide such insights I would greatly appreciate it.

[Happylady]

Panamic and Ellipse are both Essilor lenses so it seems to me that the opticians that can get one should be able to get the other one.

Ellipse is usually used when the fitting height is 17 or less and Panamic when it is 18 or more so those don't really overlap. What is the correct fitting height on this frame when you wear it? That should answer the question about which of these are better.

It seems that that second optician did a lot of extra stuff for you, she checked your glasses and also remounted and repaired them for you. Did she charge you? Personally if you like them all equally I would consider her since she has been very helpful.

You might also check out Varilux's and Zeiss's web sites and read about the lenses that are available.

[i2i]

Very helpful HappyLady, thank you! The 2nd optician did not charge me and was very nice. If the type of lenses were all equal I would get my new lenses from them, but I'm not sure that they are all equal so I still want to figure out what is best for me. In your opinion these lenses are comparable, which is good to know.

I don't know the fitting height of my frames and lens shape/size, I know it is 32mm from top to bottom but I believe you are referring to a different measurement, I will get the question about fitting height answered from an optician in person.

Thanks again!

[chip anderson]

It is quite possible that each the lens each of these reputatble opticians you refer to is correct. Any number of lenses can address a particular problem. That's why I said: "Explain your needs and activities, then let them advise you." Brand X no matter how new, improved or expensive it is may not solve your needs any better than brand Y. Any lens if laid out improperly, won't work.
Any optician is going to be offended if you tell him how to do his job and do something like tell him: "I need brand X, laid out like so." At least if he is not just money hungry and brand X happens to give him the best return.

Chip

[i2i]

Thanks Chip. To be clear, I do not intend to tell an optician how to do their job. What I would like to do is reach a conclusion as to what lens seems to me to be right, go to the optician that carries that lens, explain why I think that lens is right for me, and then put myself into their hands (i.e. "I've heard the XYX lens that you carry has the widest distance area compared to ___ and ____ and that appeals to me. What do you think I need?"). I hope I did not give the impression that I intend to dictate unilaterally to the optician.

I can imagine it is frustrating for an optician to have a customer come in locked into preconceived notions, particularly if those notions are only half-baked or flat-out wrong. That happens in a lot of industries, and yours is no exception.

By the same token, I am the kind of person who likes to do homework and gather some facts ahead of time so that I can be assured of the advice I am getting. I would find myself most comfortable with an optician who welcomes my desire to understand their guidance, who believes what they say because of both trust and because it make sense to me. I would hope the optician values that kind of customer relationship as well.

[shellrob]

I think you're on the right track. The only thing I can offer you is not to get too wrapped up in the brand names of the lenses. It's very important that you get the lenses that are best for you and your needs and it may be a lens that you've never heard of.

[For-Life]

Well since the Ipseo has a 14mm fitting height if the reading is cut off with it then the reading will be cut off with every other lens out there in that size frame.

[Happylady]

The fitting height is the measurement from your pupil to the bottom of the frame. If the frame measures 32 mm from the top to the bottom you shouldn't have to go with a small corridor lens unless the frame sits low or your eyes are lower in the frame.

I don't know anything about the Gradal Individual. The Gradal Top is considered to have a very good distance and intermediate area, the channel is longish. I had a pair several years ago. I don't know the fitting height for the Individual.

I use the Ellipse when I need a fitting height of 16 or less. It has a fairly good distance and near but I have read that the intermediate area is smaller. I have never worn this lens.

I have used the Panamic many times over the years. I think of it as a good all around lens. I have worn it and liked it.

How you will like these lenses I can't say. People react very differently to the same lens. I have had patients love the Panamic and Ellipse and other patients didn't care for them at all.

Again, have you checked out the Varilux and Zeiss web sites? On the Varilux web site check out the Vision Care Professional part. It talks about the various lenses, I think you will find it interesting and helpful.

[QDO1]

I recommens researching the work of James Sheedy. http://optometry.osu.edu/COOR/4059.cfm


That will let you know:

A. Why QUALIFIED professionals are reticient to give info online
B. How little the general dispensing population (most of which are not qualified or that knowledgable) really knows abut dispensing progressives, and the real differences between the designs
C. The answer to your questions

[i2i]

Check out the manufacturers' websites, duh. There's a reason I'm not a brain surgeon.

I actually had looked at the Varilux site but not on the pro side. Even on the pro side it is still mostly promotional and marketing as opposed to truly comparative, but it did give me a good sense of the difference between Panamic and Ellipse.

Basically, Panamic is positioned as a great all-around lens with good performance in distance, intermediate, and near vision, both in terms of zone width and zone area. Also supposed to have a minimum of unwanted astigmatism.

Ellipse is not positioned in terms of how good the vision is but rather how it is specially designed for fashionable small lenses, taking into account the particular optical considerations that small lenses pose. Reading between the lines, Ellipse probably will not measure up to Panamic on pure performance and isn't designed to, instead it is designed to get people who want small lenses into them.

The Zeiss site speaks glowingly of the Gradal, big surprise, and of course neither of these sites compares their lenses to each other but to the generic "average" PAL.

Still, this gave me a great sense of my bearings in this landscape.

Then I read the most recent of the Sheedy articles. Wow! Thanks for that recommendation. He made scientifically-controlled measurements of a sizable number of specific brands of PALs, then plotted all the results on graphs. I was eating this up with a spoon. Just in terms of comparing Panamic, Ellipse, and Gradal Top, here are the results from Sheedy:

Distance zone width:
1st: Zeiss Gradal Top
2nd: Varilux Panamic
3rd: Varilux Ellipse


Distance zone area:
1st: Zeiss Gradal Top
2nd: Varilux Panamic
3rd: Varilux Ellipse


Intermediate zone width:
1st: Zeiss Gradal Top
2nd: Varilux Panamic
3rd: Varilux Ellipse


Intermediate zone area:
1st: Zeiss Gradal Top
2nd: Varilux Panamic
3rd: Varilux Ellipse


Near zone width:
Note: the near zone width and area are hard to summarize because the measurements were taken based on three different distances from the fitting cross. For some lenses, the three measurements varied widely while for others the range of measurements was much tighter. Given that, though, this is my takeaway...
1st : Varilux Ellipse
2nd: Varilux Panamic
3rd: Zeiss Gradal Top


Near zone area:
1st : Varilux Ellipse
2nd: Varilux Panamic
3rd: Zeiss Gradal Top


Unwanted astigmatism:
1st (least): Varilux Panamic
2nd: Varilux Ellipse
3rd: Zeiss Gradal Top (just slightly more than Panamic)



It would be great if one lens was the winner in all categories, but c'est la vie. This is great information, exactly what I needed. Thank you all so much.

Sheedy does not compare Zeiss Gradal Individual, which really is impossible since it is so customized.

A still unanswered question: is yellowing at the edges normal for all high-index lenses over time? That is what one optician told me.

Thanks!

[QDO1]

.

A still unanswered question: is yellowing at the edges normal for all high-index lenses over time? That is what one optician told me.

Thanks!

Are you refering to the lenses taking on a yellow tint, or you seeing a yellow fringe?

[chip anderson]

Given enough time the whole damn lens will yellow.

[i2i]

What I notice most is the polished edges of the lenses (in these rimless frames) are noticeably yellow. I don't remember that they were that way when I got them, but these are old lenses and could have changed over time.

One of the opticians I am considering for new lenses is the one that made these old lenses, and I asked about the yellowing because if that is one particular kind of lens I would want to steer clear of it again. But that optician said this is typical with all high-index lenses over time.

Thanks.

[i2i]

To expand on that, the optician told me that the lenses have UV absorption to protect the eyes, but they suffer from that over the long haul by becoming discolored from all that UV absorption, hence the yellow color. He said that the whole lens is getting slightly tinted from this process but it is most noticeable at the polished edges as a yellow color. I believe he said this happens with high-index in particular and that it happens with all such lenses not one particular brand.

Any truth to this? Thanks.

[efsamuel]

To expand on that, the optician told me that the lenses have UV absorption to protect the eyes, but they suffer from that over the long haul by becoming discolored from all that UV absorption, hence the yellow color. He said that the whole lens is getting slightly tinted from this process but it is most noticeable at the polished edges as a yellow color. I believe he said this happens with high-index in particular and that it happens with all such lenses not one particular brand.

Any truth to this? Thanks.

This is getting more into the giving advice on Rx side of things since material choice can be tied so close to the Rx. Please do not post your Rx here as I want to give general info and not have a clue to your specific Rx.

Basic materials; CR-39 and glass please do not use a rimless in these, so I will not adress here. High Index- When we get into High Index we start to throw numbers around, the higher the number the thinner the lens is a "general" rule. Most High Index lenses will yellow over time, your Rx will change over time and new lenses are needed so this is usualy not a big deal. Polycarbonate is another choice for rimless due to impact resistant and clear lens edges. There are optic factors regarding your Rx in this lens as it is not better it is just clear. Trivex is another material that while I have noticed it doesn't yellow like Poly it tends to have a darker edge. Again, if you go to an optician you trust bring up your concern about the lens edge then just go with what they recomend. They have seen more Rx's made into the frame than you have and once the Rx is factored in if you trust them do not second guess.

I hope this helps, as I always want to know why too.

[i2i]

Thanks EF, I won't post my prescription as you advise. The "generic" info you provided is actually quite specific and helps me a lot. Much appreciated.

[Diane]

Salle's Opticians in Atlanta carries Kawasaki. The general manage is a friend of mine. They are an upscale boutique, and know their stuff as well. Great product.

Hope this helps.

Diane:o