unclear how to sort through the choices

[The Critical Eye]

i2i.... IMHO this thread needs to come to a close. It's time again ..as I believe Judy politely mentioned to you at the beginning of your thread to advise you to find someone in your community who is able to serve you in a proper fashion. To date it sounds like you haven't achieved this. By reading your posts..it's apparent that you have more than a progressive lens concern. Your questions should be posed to a lens manufacturer or again... a local ECP.

Some of your questions are stated in such a fashion... that you (even if unknowingly) pitting one dispensary and dispensers against another.As a consumer you truly don't need to know fitting heights and frame measurements. If you do..then you're in the wrong store.

Your question about costco saying that they use a house brand varilux lens is down right out of place. If costcos staff can't tell you which essilor lens they're selling... how do you expect someone on this board to know ? Are you really prepared to take advice from someone on this board who you haven't even
met... i2i. (excuse the pun)

Why not just call up costcos corporate office and as a member demand to know which lens they're using on the basis of being consumer friendly.

Bottom line...find someone who carries more than one lens design and therefore won't be obliged to recommending only one lens for all solutions.
Also .. whether a person carries a particular frame or not does mean that they are capable of building you a good pair of specacles.. it takes a skilled technician who takes pride in their work.

[drk]

I recommens researching the work of James Sheedy. http://optometry.osu.edu/COOR/4059.cfm


That will let you know:

A. Why QUALIFIED professionals are reticient to give info online
B. How little the general dispensing population (most of which are not qualified or that knowledgable) really knows abut dispensing progressives, and the real differences between the designs
C. The answer to your questions

I think you're on to something, King.

Point is:
*We don't have that much quantitative comparative data available.

*If we did, we would be comparing at an artificially arbitrary Rx level, and what could be true for one Rx could be different for another.

*Position of wear is not considered in such studies.

*Fitting height is only marginally controlled in this study

*Patient acceptance is not necessarily linearly related to "highest level of distance zone area in square millimetres".

*New designs arrive sooner than poor Dr. Sheedy can publish.

*Material availabilities and choices may well mitigate/exacerbate problems with a given design.

*And again, we're dealing with uniquely different human visual systems, personalities, and environments, and not the Hubble Telescope.

In other words, you are dealing with way too many variables to ask such a simplistic question as "which progressive is better" for me. Only God knows that answer.

[QDO1]

I think you're on to something, King.

Point is:
*We don't have that much quantitative comparative data available.

*If we did, we would be comparing at an artificially arbitrary Rx level, and what could be true for one Rx could be different for another.

*Position of wear is not considered in such studies.

*Fitting height is only marginally controlled in this study

*Patient acceptance is not necessarily linearly related to "highest level of distance zone area in square millimetres".

*New designs arrive sooner than poor Dr. Sheedy can publish.

*Material availabilities and choices may well mitigate/exacerbate problems with a given design.

*And again, we're dealing with uniquely different human visual systems, personalities, and environments, and not the Hubble Telescope.

In other words, you are dealing with way too many variables to ask such a simplistic question as "which progressive is better" for me. Only God knows that answer.

seems we are on the same page in thye song book. What I would say is... take a step back and think about what DRK said actually means on the ground. Whist few of us (as a profession) bother to research reports like Sheedy's, when we do, we are confroted with a series of new questions. At least we care to read the research and have a clue.. which leaves the rest of the profession...??? where???

[The Critical Eye]

At least we care to read the research and have a clue.. which leaves the rest of the profession...??? where???

Why would you use valuable resources worrying about whether the rest of the profession is readinf the researchpapers or not ? Then you'll need to begin worrying about whether they're applying their new found knowledge
or not.
As the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water ...but you can't make it drink".

[step88]

Hi, I am another consumer with great frustrations. I too come here for the qualified opinions of the people on this site who actually know alot about the industry, hoping to learn from their experiences as they relate to my problems. I was led to this site by Google. After reading everything on this site, I was scolded on my first post, so, very embarrassed, I've kept quiet till now. I've had some experience that might help you, or not!

I wanted to let you know I now have the Ellipse in a 28.3 height frame with about a 16 or 17 fitting height and hate it! Hardly a good area of vision at any distance! "Swim" everywhere. Getting ready for my 3rd lens, and assume I'll have to live with it no matter what. They now want me to go to the Physio in a larger frame, but I am dreading it, based on experience.

The first lense in the smaller frame was Definity, and I had the same exact experience as you...that the full reading power was cut off-my opthamologist thought it was an error & just needed to be remade, but the optical shop still claimed the reading strength "was there" (finally admitting the full strength was not) and chose to remake in Ellipse, which is a disaster!

Have had Panamics but in a larger frame and LOVED it, but being advised not to use it in the 28 to 29.5 frames even with fitting height of 18.

He claimed that all progressive lenses are designed the same, so a brand change wouldn't be any different, which I know from other websites not to be true - even within Varilux. He also suggested a wider frame, but my current frame is no narrower than my one I was happy in before, so this doesn't make sense. I understand that the professionals on this site don't want to step on any toes, but unfortunately we don't all have a local source with as much dedication as they have.

Good luck!

[i2i]

I just want to thank everyone here who has offered advice and guidance. Some of you have been very generous by providing true help, specific information, and valuable insights. I appreciate it!

[FVCCHRIS]

i2i..loved your questions and everyones responses. Progressive lens selection really can be a chore without knowledgeable assistance. By the way, how do you go about buying tires for your automobile? I hope it's an easier decision..

[QDO1]

Why would you use valuable resources worrying about whether the rest of the profession is readinf the researchpapers or not ? Then you'll need to begin worrying about whether they're applying their new found knowledge
or not.
As the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water ...but you can't make it drink".

Because it seems I'm the muppet that ends up really sorting out the patient which is having issues.. that is after they have seen all the un-educated clones that this industry seems to love employing. As much as I like a challenge, I feel sorry for the patients that have invested so much time effort and money into soloutions that do not work

[AWTECH]

i2i,if you would like to contact me via private message I have some information that could be helpful for you.

[The Critical Eye]

[QUOTE=step88]Hi, I am another consumer with great frustrations. I too come here for the qualified opinions of the people on this site who actually know alot about the industry, hoping to learn from their experiences as they relate to my problems. I was led to this site by Google. After reading everything on this site, I was scolded on my first post, so, very embarrassed, I've kept quiet till now. I've had some experience that might help you, or not!


Hmmm... sorry! just because a web designer knows how to get a site ranked high on a search engines listing doesn't mean it's THE site of choice for you. Google is not responsible for your web surfing experiences in so far as
how one will be recieved on any particuar site. Before we know it ... you'll be holding them accountable for your next unsuccessful eyeglass purchase.

I also have issue with the way you then carry on by describing (in a limited way.. thank you) some of your past experiences with regards to your eyewear. First of all.... there are many people who travel from small surroundings towns and villages and come to the big city for a so called greater selection of product and opinions. Keep in mind that ones level of confusion may increase as well during this process as they wander aimlessly trying to figure out who to see... who has the best price... who'll give them free nosepads.. who'll readjust the ill fitting frame they've bought elsewhere
4 years ago... for free.
But I'm digressing... so to move on.
By reading your posting I realize that you uncannily answered your own question. You evidently not a happy camper with the level of service and suggestions you've been getting at your local optical shop. You've apparently gleaned enough information along the way to start to troubleshoot your problems. For this I aplaud you... so when you have trouble with your next set of frames and lenses... I guess you won't be able to ask for a change or refund. I think it's great... I wish more consumers would take ownership of their decisions.
Please reread the last part of your posting... you already have your answer... you know what works.... it came from your lips...
you were happiest with a panamic in a larger frame. Maybe it's time you quit playing games with this... and instead of trying to find a magical answer :hammer: to a lens that quite possibly just doesn't exist... just go with what you know works... and get on with living life. What a statement...you assume you'll have to live with the 3rd lens choice. Do you mean there will be no more free redos/nonadapts ? Again...you know what works... or are you now letting fashion rule ?

[The Critical Eye]

Because it seems I'm the muppet that ends up really sorting out the patient which is having issues.. that is after they have seen all the un-educated clones that this industry seems to love employing. As much as I like a challenge, I feel sorry for the patients that have invested so much time effort and money into soloutions that do not work

QDO1...I'm surprisd at you! You have an urge to protect the naive helpless/ consumer who has seemingly been taken advantage of.. by a select group of optical delinquents. I just want to point out that this industry is just that...an industry.. .. whether it be glasses...stereos.. cars. There are good ..not so good .. and bad in all sectors. That's what makes one different from the other. Think about it...if everyone did their job properly (whatever that is)... then the consumer would most likely continue to shop at the same shop ..year after year. You should be thanking these large corps and their ...ummm did you say "uneducated clones ?" ... because without them you would be just another clone like them. Don't you think it would get rather tedious and boring if you didn't have to do a bit of creative thinking through the day. A mix of challenges is what I like best. I find the "uneducated clones " just make my job easier.

My 1st response to you feeling sorry for these people... and THEIR DECISIONS was.. you'd be a good social worker. Ultimately it was their decision to buy. No one reached into their wallet without them knowing about it.
Rule #1 of the market place ... well...I'm pretty sure it's one of the top 5 rules anyways... and that is "Caveat Emptor" ..."Let the buyer Beware"

Come on ... this is a free marketplace.. the consumer has more than enough choice. They choose their dispensary...who'll they'll speak with... and so on. There is no one way to deliver optical goods. Perhaps there's a better way..but in who's opinion... who gets to say what the expected norm is. If you were CEO of a large corporation... and were treating your business... as a business... and wanted/needed to increase margins... what would you do ?
You'd bring in cheap frames...cheap lens designs... and then cheap labor.
I think you know the rest of the equation.
This is fueled by the average consumer being bombarded with advertising
(perfectly legal) drawing them into their establishments with all kinds of offers.. these people have been studied..and targeted. It's known what form of payment they prefer... or if they collect airmiles.

Curious... do you feel sorry for these same people... if they've made a poor decision on their car purchase or any other purchase for that matter.

[QDO1]

QDO1...I'm surprisd at you! You have an urge to protect the naive helpless/ consumer who has seemingly been taken advantage of.. by a select group of optical delinquents.

The increasingly high ratio of unqualified or poorly educated staff in the dispensing industry in the UK is what I am talking about. As an example: I was in a store "as the qualified Optician" - as a locum - the other week. I was theoretically responsible for the work of over 40 unqualified staff who were dispensing members of the public. Thier lack of professional knowledge was shocking. They all basically get 2 weeks training, with company policys and procedures + systems thrown in to the training time too. On that basis, you can figure out the educative divide between qualified and unqualified in this environment. Some of us qualified ones here have many many years of specific education and training + many years of experience under our belts. [QUOTE=The Critical Eye]I just want to point out that this industry is just that...an industry.. .. whether it be glasses...stereos.. cars. [/qoute] Wrong. each industry has a different level of responsibility attached to it. example: a propeller technician for an aeroplane ought to be a highly trained and skilled individual, if he screws up, the consequenses are obvious. the propellor company will still be an industry, and make money, but will have a different approach to quality thann say a rubber duck manufacturer

There are good ..not so good .. and bad in all sectors. That's what makes one different from the other.

You clearly do not understand what has happened in our industry. in the old days of 100% independant opticians your statement was true. the larger retailers now have the largest share of the market, and the skill and training level has honogonised - to a mediocre standard. Actually British standards (relating to prescription accuracy) were lowered to accomadate the fact that suddenly the quality of work that was once achievable is no longer achievable

Think about it...if everyone did their job properly (whatever that is)... then the consumer would most likely continue to shop at the same shop ..year after year.

Increasingly they do not anymore

You should be thanking these large corps and their ...ummm did you say "uneducated clones ?" ... because without them you would be just another clone like them. Don't you think it would get rather tedious and boring if you didn't have to do a bit of creative thinking through the day. A mix of challenges is what I like best. I find the "uneducated clones " just make my job easier.

I know what you are saying, but it rubs after a while

My 1st response to you feeling sorry for these people... and THEIR DECISIONS was.. you'd be a good social worker. Ultimately it was their decision to buy. No one reached into their wallet without them knowing about it.
Rule #1 of the market place ... well...I'm pretty sure it's one of the top 5 rules anyways... and that is "Caveat Emptor" ..."Let the buyer Beware"

Come on ... this is a free marketplace.. the consumer has more than enough choice. They choose their dispensary...who'll they'll speak with... and so on. There is no one way to deliver optical goods. Perhaps there's a better way..but in who's opinion... who gets to say what the expected norm is. If you were CEO of a large corporation... and were treating your business... as a business... and wanted/needed to increase margins... what would you do ?
You'd bring in cheap frames...cheap lens designs... and then cheap labor.
I think you know the rest of the equation.
This is fueled by the average consumer being bombarded with advertising
(perfectly legal) drawing them into their establishments with all kinds of offers.. these people have been studied..and targeted. It's known what form of payment they prefer... or if they collect airmiles.

Curious... do you feel sorry for these same people... if they've made a poor decision on their car purchase or any other purchase for that matter.

You are making many judgements, without knowing the facts, about me, my feelings, this industry...

[efsamuel]

Come on ... this is a free marketplace.. the consumer has more than enough choice. They choose their dispensary...who'll they'll speak with... and so on.

Three words: Managed Vision Care. The consumer has the choice of which chain he wants to utilize, they are really all the same in quality and education so it is not really a choice.

[The Critical Eye]

Three words: Managed Vision Care. The consumer has the choice of which chain he wants to utilize, they are really all the same in quality and education so it is not really a choice.

Of course it is about choice. An individual makes a decision/choice to work for a company... if that company offers benefits under some sort of managed care program then they have a choice again whether to use the benefits provided or seek them elsewhere on their own. In the past I have personally opted out of health care plans offered to me by employers... when it comes to my health I'll decide who looks into my eyes... or down my throat for that matter. Yes .. I know that due to various socio economic reasons.. some people have difficulty with funding their own health care... or their families. I guess I'm just one of those people who would personally rather put his own money into his health care than have some corp decide what is best for me. Each to his/her own.

I really think that it is unfair to lump everyone who works for managed care
in the same boat. I've worked for extremely large corporations. This does not mean that I was the same as all the other opticians (my choice) in this situation. I carried my own ethics and style of dispensing.
Lastly... I am responsible for my education..my knowledge and how and if I apply it. If a person possessed all the knowledge and skills in the world... it would mean nothing..unless they chose to apply it.

It's unfortunate that we live in such an imperfect world... I do understand what you are saying about Managed Vision Care

[The Critical Eye]

[QUOTE=QDO1]The increasingly high ratio of unqualified or poorly educated staff in the dispensing industry in the UK is what I am talking about.

Response=
I personally think this is going on all around the world at the moment. It's not really specific to one geographic location. There's no need to take a millimeter rule as a form of measure to say we have it worse here than you do. This is not a contest. Bottom line it's a trend that has been noticeably increasing over say the last x amout of years ?

[QUOTE=QDO1]
As an example: I was in a store "as the qualified Optician" - as a locum - the other week. I was theoretically responsible for the work of over 40 unqualified staff who were dispensing members of the public. Thier lack of professional knowledge was shocking. They all basically get 2 weeks training, with company policys and procedures + systems thrown in to the training time too. On that basis, you can figure out the educative divide between qualified and unqualified in this environment.

Response=
For the amount of time that you say you've been in the business.. well... you shouldn't be surprised. I mean... I agree ...I wouldn't want to be in your shoes... been there... although... not to that extent. I believe that we are headed to where you are. There is/was a group called the National Vision Council of Canada.. representatives for a number of large corporations looking to increase their margins by changing the laws of the land. They would love to see our regulations changed to read... that a dispensary only requires one lead optician on premise to be responsible for the actions of all involved in the store..licensed...student.. or other.
All medical professions in Canada have been going through changes as the Health Act is being rewritten. Delegation is the term being used... and surgeons on down are delegating more and more. They tell us it's the only way to decrease the ever rising costs of health care. Hand more and more responsibilties on down the line.
Over the years the optical industry has done this on their own.. to suit their
purpose. I know of a number of dispensaries in large corps that use non licensed... and students with no supervision to work and cover the hours required. You tell me how many lead opticians if given the option to stay and work all the required hours on their own..or use unqualified staff and take the evenings and weekends off... would not pick the later. Even the district managers who are licensed opticians ok the hiring of these unqualified individuals. They've got stores to run... pay cheques to earn..as well as generous bonuses. They will also turn a blind eye.
We both know about these endless stories..... is the company that you work for doing anything illegal by having these uneducated people work
under you ? Breaking any regulations ?


[QUOTE=QDO1]
Some of us qualified ones here have many many years of specific education and training + many years of experience under our belts.

Response=
after years in an industry one would hope that they would be
referred to as "qualified"... especially if they took an interest in their
chosen discipline

[QUOTE=The Critical Eye]I just want to point out that this industry is just that...an industry.. .. whether it be glasses...stereos.. cars. [/qoute] Wrong. each industry has a different level of responsibility attached to it. example: a propeller technician for an aeroplane ought to be a highly trained and skilled individual, if he screws up, the consequenses are obvious. the propellor company will still be an industry, and make money, but will have a different approach to quality thann say a rubber duck manufacturerYou clearly do not understand what has happened in our industry.

Response=
It is mandatory for all Licensed Opticians... which includes those that hold a dual license for both spectacles and contact lens work to have current errors and omissions insurance for liability purposes. A yearly license will not be issued without it. Most large firms have this built into their infrastructure.
I would hope you are covered in a similar fashion.
From a health standpoint I'd be interested in knowing what sorts of degenerative eye disease or chronic conditions are caused by an ill fitting pair of eyeglasses ? I think I understand your attachment to your craft...
but it is only a pair of eyeglasses.... as long as your work is up to par... what more could one ask of themselves ?

[QUOTE=QDO1]
in the old days of 100% independant opticians your statement was true. the larger retailers now have the largest share of the market, and the skill and training level has honogonised - to a mediocre standard. Actually British standards (relating to prescription accuracy) were lowered to accomadate the fact that suddenly the quality of work that was once achievable is no longer achievableIncreasingly they do not anymoreI know what you are saying, but it rubs after a while

Response=
I'm glad we get to agree on something. In Canada... over 90% of the provinces collectively joined to have 1 common national exam. This so called leveling of the playing field was good from the standpoint of allowing
one to relocate from province to province if they chose to and not have the hassle of their provincial license not meeting the new provinces licensing requirements. The down side was that apparently no two provinces had the same standards. New so called standards acceptable to all had to be established. Some had to raise theirs..others forced to lower. It's never a good feeling to have to lower your standards... at least for me. I have no problem working at raising them...that's what learning and advancement is all about.

You are making many judgements, without knowing the facts, about me, my feelings, this industry...

Response=
Don't think so. I am simply responding to what you wrote.. stating my point of view....possibly being somewhat on the critical side at times... but I am hardly judging you or anyone else. I am not a magician..but an optician. I can only respond to what I read ..my interpretation of your words.

The facts.... I was commenting on you feeling sorry for certain clients. That's your perogative. If it's in your nature.. and it makes you go home feeling good about the day... great. I merely stated that I thought you had the makings of a good social worker.... one person may have taken that as a compliment...you chose otherwise. A little empathy or sympathy whichever it may be that you have for your clients is not necesarily a bad thing if it works for you. You never answered my question... which was about why you FEEL this way. You're right QDO1 ... I don't know about your feelings or why you feel the way you do...that's why I was asking.

The facts... work..should be enjoyed. That's why I left the big corps... to try once again to enjoy myself.... and the craft I have learned.. and continue to learn. I decided I wanted to surround myself with people who have an appreciation for what it is we do.

The facts... I've never been one to wear my credentials on my sleeve. I don't even have a business card... never have. I presently use a company card to promote the owner of the business whose name is on it.. and I write my name on the back. I've got nothing to prove. I am but one cog in the wheel in the clients quest for eyecare. We are all (ok..maybe not all) continuously learning.. trying to improve ourselves. My knowledge of the industry ?... I could be one of the grandchildren from the Hermant family who helped mold the optical industry and opticianry in Canada a number of years ago.
This is not a contest to be won by how much more knowledgeable one of us
is over the other.


My apologies if I ruffled your feathers/hurt your feelings QDO1. I was responding in an open forum to comments you had made... I believe that is allowed here.