came from stone age

[touseefliaqat]

Hello All,

For many years our family has worked in local optical industry in our country with very old machines and technology. We still use the methods used in 50 years ago or may be earlier and we don't have any knowledge of new machines and technology. Now after I surfed the net and found that you people are using totally different machines and methods. My family is looking to upgrade our machines of surfacing because we only do surfacing job. We have learned the art of lens surfacing/development from our elders and we have not earned any degree from any university on lens development. We want to upgrade but we don't know any thing about Generators, labs and other stuff you people speak of. We only know about surfacing machine. can you people guide us to know these things which are necessary for surfacing job?
From where should i start? Which surfacing machine should we look for and what will we require other then that machine to start working i.e. tools, polish etc?

Thanks,
Touseef Liaqat

[SpecialT]

I think this really has potential to be a great thread and I look forward to some of the views on pros and cons by the optical guys on optiboard. I too am considering some updates on equipment in this area. To help narrow down a possible answer to your inquiry, it would be helpful to know a few things. What volume (sales) are you looking at? How much space for equipment do you have? What kind of budget are we talking (minimal, moderate, or do you just want the best)? What types of lenses do you want to offer (not brand)? Do you have skilled labor in your area? What would you like in terms of turnaround time on an order? Is there anything that you know for sure that you don't want to do and why?

Also, have you considered hiring a consultant? This is an option that alot of people don't take advantage of that probably should.

My own personal question that relates to this topic is in respect to the wavefront guided lenses, such as the izone. Anyone have any experience with them? Is it more of a gimmick or is it something to consider seriously?

[chip anderson]

Touloose:

I assume you are in Pakistian. Go to Chris Rysers web site were he has 500 or so links to various optical manufacturer's and suppliers. Click on the links that are optical equipment manufacturers. Explain your plight and I am sure that most of them will innundate you with information about what products they have, how they work, what they cost, etc. I suspect that many of them if you show serious interest and intimate that you have the means to purchase same will even send you consultants (salespeople) or offer to have you come to thier facilities and see thier equipment in operation. This is the United States and money rules. You have money, vendors will either come to you or bring you to a place where the can try to induce you to spend it.

Chip

[rbaker]

From your post I would guess that you are using a hand pan to surface spherical lenses and perhaps hand rocking cylinders and using pitch laps. It would be most helpful to us if you could take a moment and sent another post describing what you are presently producing and what machinery you use. You might also let us know what lens materials and lens forms that you wish to produce.

This does indeed sound interesting. If you could attach some photos we would love to see what you are presently doing.

[Framebender]

If so, go to the optical marketplace. Glenn Fluegge has stuff by the container full. You could probably get him to throw in what manuals he's got. Talk to Jacqui I'm sure she knows some equipment brokers. Jeff Trail. . .he's running around here someplace. There's a bunch of good lab people on here. I wouldn't buy new unless you just won the lotto or something.

Good luck to you! I hate being a cynic sometimes!

[Jacqui]

Contact Mary Larson at http://www.premieropticalparts.com/ this is what's left of FB Optical, I know she ships internationally. She does have several blockers, cylinder machines, generators, etc.

If you need a consultant contact me by PM, I'm open to foreign contracts.

[Chris Ryser]

I have a friend in Germany that makes a living selling used re-conditioned LOH and other labs and equipment to India and other far east east locations. He knows the needs and conditions of your country.

You can reach him at : Erich Polzer <stpolzer@t-online.de>,

[touseefliaqat]

Thank you all for all your precious comments.

Here are the answers to questions which SpecialT and others raised.

>>What volume (sales) are you looking at?
100 pairs / day

>>How much space for equipment do you have?
N/A

>>What kind of budget are we talking (minimal, moderate, or do you just want the best)?
Minimal

>>What types of lenses do you want to offer and produce (not brand)?
Glass and CR39

>>what you are presently producing and what machinery you use.
We are currently producing lens of glasses and do not produce plastic/CR39 stuff. the machines we use are traditional local/home made.

>>Do you have skilled labor in your area?
Skill labor for your machines are easily available.

>>What would you like in terms of turnaround time on an order?
2 to 3 months.

>>Is there anything that you know for sure that you don't want to do and why?
hmm Not

>>Also, have you considered hiring a consultant? This is an option that alot of people don't take advantage of that probably should.
Not so far. How can we hire one and what are the benefits.



The things that i think are missed are the machines and tools which I dont understand the purpose. Can somebody tell what are generators? and what blockers do?

I will be posting the photos of our machines and tools soon after taking them, that i think you will love to see. :)

Thanks,
Touseef Liaqat

[QDO1]

I would be facinated to see the pictures

I agree - you probrably want to "hire some help" to get you up to speed with all of the new technologies, there is a lot to learn

[Jacqui]

I too would love to see the photos. The machinery probably looks like some of the equipment that I used as an apprentice.

[QDO1]

I too would love to see the photos. The machinery probably looks like some of the equipment that I used as an apprentice.

or when I worked as a restorer of antique spectacles

[SpecialT]

This is some general feedback...

100 pairs/day is what I would consider a signifacant work load. You may want to consider spending just a little extra to conserve on labor costs, or at least more than one edger.

Generator - common one in the US is by Gerber/Coburn, it is one of the largest and heaviest peices you would own. With it you shave away the back surface of a lens blank to a certain curvature and thickness that is specified for that prescription. Computer software generates all the numbers you need. This machinery almost exclusively manual (not set it and forget it)

But really you should start at the beginning...

A computer with software is needed (probably not absolutely required though) to enter in the Rx, lens design and base curve of the blank. The computer will then calculate the thickness and curvature needed for the generator. It also specifies the correct lap for the cylinder machine.

A lens blocker would then be used to center the lens and adjust for astigmatic axis changes. These measurements are used to attach via alloy a block to the front of the lens so that it can be attached to the cylinder machines and generator. Surface tape is needed to avoid scratching the front of the lens.

After the alloy is used to attach the block, the lens blank is cut using the generator which I already explained.

After the generator, the lens goes to cylinder machines (usually two or three are needed) which with the help of the lap and pads are fined down and polished (glazed). The pads usually start with a heavy abrasive and then a light abrasive and then a non abrasive for polishing. Think of this like sanding the lens to smootheness.

Hopefully:) , after the polishing everything is correct and you are ready to remove the block which goes into a hot water tank and the alloy is recovered. The lens is at this point ready to be blocked for edging. (note: there is an extra step for poly).

A lensometer is needed to align the cut lens and mark it for a small block that is attached with a rubbery pad called a leap pad. Once the lens is blocked it is place in the edger and cut for the frame.

The problem for you is that there is really much much more. You need a cooling system and pluming. And since you want to do glass and CR-39 you will have to be aware that certain generators and edgers are only usefull for certain materials. Also, there are even more modern ways to achieve similar results such as the fast grind system which you can look up on the web.

The solution is this... Either go somewhere to take classes and learn about this stuff, hire someone who already knows, or get a consultant. Maybe you can get something out of what I just said and I hope that some optiboarders post which instruments they like and don't like, but there are just too many possibilities for this forum to get you to an end point. I wish it was simpler!

Good Luck! I would love to see the photos.

[Jacqui]

What I think is really needed is a consultant who will show them what they need and stick around and show them how to use it. It's going to take someone who knows the old manual machines and how to do things without a computer, etc..

Since you want to do both glass and CR39, you will need 2 seperate polishing systems (cylinder machines) and possibly 2 generators (rough grinders). I personally would look at some of the Coburn, FB, or early Optek sufacing systems from a reliable rebuilder who has experience shipping and installing equipment in your region.

Again send me a private message on this board or email me

Jacqui Pearson
CEO
C.D. Optical

[mirage2k2]

This really is an interesting thread. Surely there are some web sites that more fully detail all the steps that are involved in making a lense. Does anyone know of some really good links?

There is a reasonably good article on how stuff works ... http://science.howstuffworks.com/lens.htm

http://science.howstuffworks.com/lens6.htm takes you straight to the processing of the lens.

This article is quite basic though ... so does anyone know of a link that provides more detail? Nobody has mentioned free-form generators ... they are cut-to-polish right ... aren't these the way forward?

[SpecialT]

Man, I wish I had known about that second site before I wrote that whole book. :) How much more detail do you want?

[mirage2k2]

How much more detail do you want?

I'd like to learn more about the process for different materials, glass, poly, trivex, MR..., etc. I'm interested in the side effects of processing from a materials standpoint, i.e. overheating, etc. Perhaps I'll start a new thread for this ... it's not helpful for touseefliaqat if this thread gets sidetracked. :D

[Jacqui]

Nobody has mentioned free-form generators ... they are cut-to-polish right ... aren't these the way forward?

Free-form is nice for plastic, but he also needs to surface GLASS.

Anyway the articles are good for someones first day on the job, things get more technical on the second day and beyond.

I should start a school to teach the things that the modern opticians(?) don't know, like how to make lenses without a computer and how to hand edge lenses.

[SpecialT]

Touseef - I encourage you to look at the web sites that mirage2k2 has posted, they are a great step by step illustration of what would be involved. If you end up with some specific questions after that, feel free to post.

I would also like to know more about free form, I have essentially no experience with this.

Mirage2k2 - I haven't actually ever cut a glass lens myself but have worked with many that have. They all pretty much say that the process is the same, but you just need a diamond cut blade that is designed for glass. Poly is similar in that your edgers need to have poly blades. The only thing that is really different for poly is the coating unit. After a poly lens is polished on the cylinder machines, it goes through a coating unit which coats the back surface of the lens. That is really the only additional step. Overheating is controlled with slowing the speed of the cutting and fining process, as well as using a refrigerated cooling system for the fluids involved. I have also not surfaced trivex myself, but would think it is very similar to poly.

Again, I really hope some of the optical superstars on optiboard chime in.

[mirage2k2]

Again, I really hope some of the optical superstars on optiboard chime in.

Yes :D c'mon optical gurus, lab techs also, tell us more ...


SpecialT, thanks for your response. I've learned a bit about free-form generators by surfing the web ... from what I gather they have taken the machines that were originally used to cut lense moulds and then upgraded them with all the latest hardware and software ... these things are cutting edge technology (excuse the pun) ... you pop some numbers, a points file and some lens material in one end and then an optical masterpiece pops out of the other :)

I think free-form is largely used for custom pals but they might also be used for atorics and such like. I think the lens manufacturer supplies the points file and raw materials instead of the blanks ... but I might be wrong.

[Jacqui]

Don't forget, freeform systems (you need the whole system) start at USD 250.000 and go up. The point of this thread is to help someone update on a limited budget hence the Coburn, FB, etc equipment.

Freeform technology is more than just plopping in a blank, punching in some numbers and waiting for the finished product to come out. You had better be danged good at surfacing before you even buy a system and forget what the salespeople tell you.

[mirage2k2]

Freeform technology is more than just plopping in a blank, punching in some numbers and waiting for the finished product to come out.

Sorry, just having a laugh :D ... but in a few years, what with modern technology and all, who knows ... it might be that simple ;)

Do you really have 14 cats?

I reckon its worth starting another thread all about this kind of stuffs ... I'm sure lots of optiboarders would be interested :)

[Jacqui]

I reckon its worth starting another thread all about this kind of stuffs ... I'm sure lots of optiboarders would be interested :)

There have been several, check the archives.

[Jacqui]

[QUOTE=mirage2k2]Do you really have 14 cats?QUOTE]
Yes, and they all help me in the lab.

[LENNY]

All female?

[Jacqui]

Mostly