Axis cross

[Darryl Meister]

In ophthalmics, an "optical cross" is indeed the power diagram I illustrated earlier. A Jackson Cross Cylinder, which you are like to find on a phoropter, is a lens with Cylinder power but with an average power (spherical equivalent) of zero. For instance, a +2.00 DS -4.00 DC lens would be a 2.00 Jackson Cross Cyl. There is a total of 4.00 diopters of cylinder, but the spherical equivalent is +2.00 + (-4.00 / 2) = 0.00 D.

There is also the Crossed Cylinder form of prescription notation (in addition to the more common Minus Cylinder and Plus Cylinder forms). This essentially expresses an Rx as two mutually perpendicular Plano-Cylinders. Using the optical cross, it is easy to pull the prescription off in Crossed Cylinder form. Treat each power meridian as a Cylinder power and use the angle of the opposite leg as the Axis. In our first example, +2.00 DS -1.00 DC x 180, this would give us a "Crossed Cylinder" +2.00 DC x 090 combined with +1.00 DC x 180. In the second example, -3.00 DS -2.00 DC x 090, this would give us -5.00 DC x 090 combined with -3.00 DC x 180.

[Darryl Meister]

PS

Also note that a Jackson Cross Cylinder gets its name from the fact that it represents two cylinders of equal power but opposite sign crossed at 90 degrees. This becomes immediately apparent when expressed in Cross Cylinder form. For instance, in Crossed Cylinder form, a Jackson Cross Cyl of +2.00 DS -4.00 DC x 180 becomes +2.00 DC x 090 combined with -2.00 DC x 180.

[Karenrp1956]

Here is what I just don't understand. A person asks a question and yes they should know it but for some reason they don't, we have all been there. The response is always the same all of the 'older' more 'experienced' opticians begin to complain about the state of opticianry today. They can go on and on and on and never once answer the question! Yes there should be standard education for opticians but guess what...THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!! So do we nit pick a person who is attempting to learn? We need opticians to ask questions even if they are stupid ones. When opticians stop asking questions that means they are not learning. And opticians are not a dying breed! I know for a fact that there are many, many brilliant 'young' opticians out there and there is no short supply of 'older' opticians that do what they want and explain to us whipper snappers that 'I've been doin' this since you were in diapers' and yet never actually explain a darn thing!

All I have to say to you karenrp1956 is keep learning and ignore ANY ONE who wants to make you feel bad for not knowing what they know!

And we should all take a cue from Darryl and just answer the question!! Do you guys really think that you are in any way contributing to this field by not sharing information?

thank you...FYI to all, I am not stupid! I know alot for someone who is not certified. In Texas you do not have to be, and that is my fault. You had to deal with me and I apologize for that. I should have NEVER trusted all of this board to think that you are in HELPING business. I wonder how well you help your patients. I struggle with this one item and thought you would help. Some of you are GREAT and understanding and I promise I will study and learn if it is the last thing I do.

[Lady Nicole]

Here is what I just don't understand. A person asks a question and yes they should know it but for some reason they don't, we have all been there. The response is always the same all of the 'older' more 'experienced' opticians begin to complain about the state of opticianry today. They can go on and on and on and never once answer the question! Yes there should be standard education for opticians but guess what...THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!! So do we nit pick a person who is attempting to learn? We need opticians to ask questions even if they are stupid ones. When opticians stop asking questions that means they are not learning. And opticians are not a dying breed! I know for a fact that there are many, many brilliant 'young' opticians out there and there is no short supply of 'older' opticians that do what they want and explain to us whipper snappers that 'I've been doin' this since you were in diapers' and yet never actually explain a darn thing!

All I have to say to you karenrp1956 is keep learning and ignore ANY ONE who wants to make you feel bad for not knowing what they know!

And we should all take a cue from Darryl and just answer the question!! Do you guys really think that you are in any way contributing to this field by not sharing information?

I wholeheartedly agree!

I just have to say that on threads like this one, I feel for the poster because it might just as easily be me. I'm one of your "young opticians", and I didn't have the benefit of a formal education anywhere nearby. I learn as much as I can, and it's usually all on my own without the benefit of any programs or mentors. And let me tell you, sometimes it's so difficult! How do you learn when there is no one to teach you?

This board is great, but honestly I am usually afraid to post because I fear being slapped down by someone more "knowledgeable". When a newer optician asks advice or has questions, please don't just roll your eyes and complain about the deplorable state of the profession. Take the opportunity to improve things! Yes, there are no standards of education. That's why I and other opticians like me have to get knowledge any other way we can. I come here looking for knowledge because its often the only resource I have. Please remember that it's the people asking questions now who will eventually learn enough to become "old timers" like yourselves. I certainly hope someday I will!

Now you can ridicule me all you want. I've said what I needed to say.

[AWTECH]

I am not sure that this question is as much a lack of knowledge of the math and science or a lack of knowledge of the buz words.

I am not an optican but have a decent grasp of geometry and if you have not encounter the term before this does not mean that the person could not understand and use the concept talked about to help the customer, (patient).

[Chris Ryser]

................................there is no short supply of 'older' opticians that do what they want and explain to us whipper snappers that 'I've been doin' this since you were in diapers' and yet never actually explain a darn thing!

Yes,.............I am one of those, I admit, that have used that phrase. But it is usually used when the younger generation tells us that we dont know a thing and our statements made on this forum are wrong.

It is not used when the need for information arises.

[rbaker]

I am fully aware that we are living in different times these days and are not supposed to criticize anyone or hurt their feelings in any way and that we should all be more sensitive. But, if a person identifies themselves as an “optician” and then asks a stupid question I assume that I am dealing with a stupid optician. I have little tolerance for stupid opticians, stupid physicians and stupid airline pilots. These gomers should not be in the cockpit or in the operating room or be sitting behind a dispensing table, particularly, if I am on the receiving end of their services.

If, on he other hand they identify themselves as “student” or “consumer” I, personally, might show them a bit more tolerance and actually try to help them out.

Hopefully they would also realize that “professional opticians” are not educated on message boards or on the internet. When they pose a stupid question I assume that there is no one within their workgroup of eye care providers that has the answer to the stupid question. So we not only have a stupid optician we have a stupid practice.

That is a fine kettle of fish – Ollie !

[Chris Ryser]

When they pose a stupid question I assume that there is no one within their workgroup of eye care providers that has the answer to the stupid question. So we not only have a stupid optician we have a stupid practice.

I get to agree with Dick, the excellent explanation does really make sense.

I don't mean to be the bearer of bad news, but I suspect that many people get into opticianry in the first place specifically because it doesn't require any training or formal education in most states. (Really, even in licensed states, very few dispensers actually need a license.)
__________________
Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

As rbaker say's................then they should not call themselves full fledged opticians.

[Jubilee]

Well unfortunately in the current state of affairs, most states allow anyone to call themselves an optician. You all complain about the chains and the doctors who hire themselves "Mcticians" and that they have no knowledge of the concepts behind the day to day routines.


I WAS one of those people. I realized when I started to work for the Crafters that my knowledge was lacking in the reasons why we did things the way we did. I DID NOT like that. So I read all the journals, I went through books, and I found a mentor who had gone through schooling so I could have that knowledge. A huge amount of my knowledge base on progressives, materials and the like came from HERE!

I too was a "lurker" for many years not wanting to appear foolish. And I think it is a shame when people still feel afraid to post.

I would rather we embrace those wanting to learn, to IMPROVE The current state of affairs, rather than demoralize them and discourage them from obtaining that knowledge.

Not everyone has the time, money, or a school that has a two year degree around. Are those people SOL when it comes to obtaining that knowledge to better themselves and the profession... are do we care about the profession and others enough to teach them things when it comes up.

I am sure that I wouldn't be in this business today if it wasn't the positive influence that the optiboard brought when I was getting my feet wet in the industry. I would have taken my college degree and gone on to other pastuers.

My personal point of view is that no one has the right to gritch and moan about the current state of affairs if they aren't willing to do anything but complain about it. Teach and Explain~!

Cassandra

[hcjilson]

Learning isn't always sugar coated. The proof is in the pudding. I would wager that Karen1956 now has had her question answered. I can't speak for anyone else in this thread, but I learned from it, proving not every old timer knows it all.

I think that the educators who have participated in this thread know very well how to teach. I think a few are a little more than frustrated at the state of afairs in our industry and sometimes that comes through as caustic.Knowing a few personally I am aware that they do not intentionally hurt feelings, but will call a spade a spade regardless of how its taken. Education does not come with a sugar coating, and learning is not without risks. Thats the way it's been, and will continue to be. Get over it.

This thread has once again highlighted our need for formal education, leading to a degree. Distance learning makes this possible and we should really all be pushing for that. We should all be pushing for one set of proscribed standards rather than the patchwork that we have today.

For those of you who didn't take the trouble to read Karen1956's profile, she listed herself as "Optical Sales", not optician.She is trying to learn which is laudable. In this format, the only way you can learn is to ask a question. No one should be afraid to ask a question here. Please keep that in mind when you answer the question, and it won't hurt anyone to remember the manners we have been taught and that anonymity sometimes allows us to forget.

[Karenrp1956]

Once I was told there were no stupid questions, I guess that person never posted a question on this website. Be asure I will not ask again, which I am aware than many of you are very pleased to hear.

[Chris Ryser]

Once I was told there were no stupid questions, I guess that person never posted a question on this website. Be asure I will not ask again, which I am aware than many of you are very pleased to hear.

I dont think that you are taking the right attitude at this moment. Maybe you should go back and see how you did ask the question.

Axis cross

someone HELP me understand this thing?

For sure if you would have been a bit more explanatory, why, and how come you have to ask this question.......you probably would not have had the violent reaction you did.

To an old hand in this trade this is one of the basic's you got to know when selling glasses and converting a Rx from a + to a - cylinder. Also when looking into a manual lensometer this same issue comes up.

So you also have to understand that an old dog's hair stands up when things are against his convictions.

Continue asking.......................but please, be a bit more elaborate.

[rsandr]

I dont think that you are taking the right attitude at this moment. Maybe you should go back and see how you did ask the question.

Attitude!:hammer:

For sure if you would have been a bit more explanatory, why, and how come you have to ask this question.......you probably would not have had the violent reaction you did.

Guilty until proven innocent?

[Chris Ryser]

Guilty until proven innocent?

Wrong.............................other way round........................turn axis 180

[Matthew]

Ohio requires a 2 year apprenticeship, or a 2 year college course. And the ABO/NCLE test before the State board will consider licensing an individual.

State licensing should be important to all opticians for a variety of reasons.

Foremost to produce quality opticians.
Secondly to ensure that you earn more than an average Wal Mart employee.

All your empires of evil (LC, WM.....)would love to pay you minimum wage, dont fool yourself. They are always trying to find ways to dismantle established licensing systems.

I am sure there are a lot of opinions about this, but the bottom line is ....get educated and always seek ways to learn all you can to make yourself the best.

Dont be a part of the dumbing down of America.

[wmcdonald]

.....is what I thought this board was designed to serve. This constant consumer and now the plethora of questions from those wo do not know even the basics have driven many away. Folks that make a difference in the industry nationwide no longer post. I ask again, should there be a place specific for professionals who want to discuss professional issues without someone who has no idea waht they are talking about?

[SpecialT]

.....is what I thought this board was designed to serve. This constant consumer and now the plethora of questions from those wo do not know even the basics have driven many away. Folks that make a difference in the industry nationwide no longer post. I ask again, should there be a place specific for professionals who want to discuss professional issues without someone who has no idea waht they are talking about?

Though the points in this post may be valid, you should also consider that some professionals may be inclined not to post not so much due to the lack of expert conversation but because of the attitudes being displayed. As a professional that is participating on this board, I can say that ignoring the less sophisticated conversation is easy but being lumped in with the sour grapes is not so desirable. This board has a sufficient mix of well thought out discussion to satisfy a professionals desire for sophisticated conversation. But who wants to have a discussion with people they don't respect? I don't respect those who don't respect others, no matter how brilliant they are!

[shellrob]

See, I actually think that less and less professionals are coming here, reading, and posting because the consumers are taking over what once used to be a message board for optical professionals. You now see the same questions and answers over an over again just asked by different consumers. The subjects more or less for professionals only are few and far between all other subjects.

[Karenrp1956]

I dont think that you are taking the right attitude at this moment. Maybe you should go back and see how you did ask the question.

For sure if you would have been a bit more explanatory, why, and how come you have to ask this question.......you probably would not have had the violent reaction you did.

To an old hand in this trade this is one of the basic's you got to know when selling glasses and converting a Rx from a + to a - cylinder. Also when looking into a manual lensometer this same issue comes up.

So you also have to understand that an old dog's hair stands up when things are against his convictions.

Continue asking.......................but please, be a bit more elaborate.

Please excuse my boldness, but maybe you should go back and read some of the reponses to my question. They were not very nice. I hope that I am not a glutton for punishment. Good day to you sir

[SpecialT]

Please excuse my boldness, but maybe you should go back and read some of the reponses to my question. They were not very nice. I hope that I am not a glutton for punishment. Good day to you sir

Your right Karen, their were some posts that were not very nice but as I have said before in other threads, this is the internet and it just comes with the territory. What I think Chris was trying to say is that you have the wrong attitude about this, you need to thicken your skin and let some things slide. Not everyone is nice to me either, but I don't let it get too me. If your are working in the industry, I would think that you would be considered welcome here, even if you don't yet have some sort of professional liscence.

A good example is Chip, he has a fairly unique personality which is evident from his posts. I have seen him take much worse than you have ever recieved, but he still participates and offers very good info on many of these threads.:cheers:

If you don't want to participate, that is up to you but it won't be because of this board. We all know that someone could think of what we say as worthless, but that is life and it would be better to take the attitude of wanting to do better next time.

[Clive Noble]

Hey guys, this has got very heavy.

Karen, I've only been in the industry and profession for 40 years, I believe I have been able to sort out some of the most complicated ophthalmic dispensing problems and fittings over the years but I have to tell you, I know what the words 'axis cross' mean but I have never heard it used in practice.
I've even gone back over my books and can't find a reference to it.
Maybe it wasn't used 40 years ago in the UK when I studied.
Good luck in the profession, I've managed well over the years without knowing what an axis cross is!!

[chip anderson]

Could it be that "axis cross" and "fitting cross" and "optical cross" are all the same things in different geographical locations and we are beating a dead horse over sematics or coloquialisms?

Chip

[Darryl Meister]

I think she was referring to an optical cross, since the legs are labeled using the Axis of the prescription.

[QDO1]

Perhaps we need a site section for topics about learning??? There is nothing wrong with wanting to learn, but, there is a lot wrong with practicing as an optician, whilst the fundamentals of the trade have not been learnt

[fjpod]

I know I came into this one late so I won't say much. I always called that thing a power cross. That's what they called it at PCO in the 70's. We used it to learn hand neutralization and to work out problems on exams.

Now as far as rudeness...It was obvious that Karen is trying to learn how to apply the tool. Maybe I shouldn't say this, but rarely would a practicing OD or LDO use it. It's one of those things you put in the back of your mind, and it gets rusty. So she either already learned it and "forgot" it or is learning it for the first time.

Cut her a break. To some on this board, it's their way or the highway. Sheezze!!