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Thread: Profits – How much is too much?

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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Profits – How much is too much?

    Profits – How much is too much?

    I have noted many posters on OptiBoard seem to feel that business and personal profit is a bad thing. Just search for “profit” on OptiBoard and you will find tons of comments condemning the economic system in the US. Now, I am not referring to Enron etc. That was not profit, that was larceny. And, if you want to discuss larceny, we can take up taxes in another thread.

    Do you feel that some individuals and businesses have too much and should be forced to give to those who have less?

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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker
    Profits – How much is too much?

    I have noted many posters on OptiBoard seem to feel that business and personal profit is a bad thing. Just search for “profit” on OptiBoard and you will find tons of comments condemning the economic system in the US. Now, I am not referring to Enron etc. That was not profit, that was larceny. And, if you want to discuss larceny, we can take up taxes in another thread.

    Do you feel that some individuals and businesses have too much and should be forced to give to those who have less?
    Profit is not a "bad thing", and no one should be "forced" to give to those who have less. I believe that it would be a better world if the disparity between the very rich and the middle class was not as wide as it is now. Some posters complain about taxes and "entitlements" (by the way, I work in an affluent area, and rich folks beleive they are the ones who are "entitled") - if the workers were paid more, there would be no need for welfare, social security, etc. But the "haves" are never satisfied. Like pigs at a trough, they gorge themselves on profit. I have no problem with someone living comfortably, but when they have air conditioned doghouses and both an inddor and outdoor pool in both of their homes (on Central Park and on Aruba), I think it's time for them to voluntarily improve the standard of living of the folks who actually create their wealth. Instead of complaining about people on welfare, pay them enough that they can afford to support their family with a place to live, food, clothing, healthcare, childcare, and some niceties (phone, TV, car, life insurance). Unfortunately, that means the profit gluttons might have to give up that Ferrari Testarosa that they had their eye on. Let's not forget the folks in Africa that live in mud huts in an AIDS infested area, and make a subsistence living. The price of a Ferrari would probably provide healthcare for the entire village for a year.

    I've asked the question before, and have been ignored, gotten a smart-alec answer, or an answer that is just plain wrong (IMHO):

    Why is our country better having more very, very rich people and very, very poor people, with a smaller middle class, rather than having a much larger middle class, and fewer very, very rich and very, very poor people??????
    ...Just ask me...

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    Thiers is too much, ours is too little.

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    Profit = good

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    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Like all economic ideas, "profit" is morally neutral. In a business sense, profit is of course to be desired.

    One of the problems a lot of people, well me!, have is that the "free market" model, today is not "free" in the original sense of unfettered, purely driven by economic principles.

    The idea that a free market will regulate itself and that competition will drive the cream to the top and all will be right with the world is great, but simply not what happens in practice. Special interests pay for the better part of an increasingly uneven playing field. Halliburton is a great example--no bid contracts? How is this an example of competition driving the best price and best products/services? Tobacco subsidies? The recently debuted Rx drug program where the federal government as the BUYER does not exercise its power to drive down prices? It's ok for Walmart to do so, but not the government? Why? Well, my answer is that the pharma companies spend big bucks getting folks elected and the great unwashed public does not--again, not something Adam Smith et al factored into their theories.

    Rant complete....

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    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    Why is our country better having more very, very rich people and very, very poor people, with a smaller middle class, rather than having a much larger middle class, and fewer very, very rich and very, very poor people??????
    Are there any other countries around the world where your ideas about some wealth-redistribution policies are working particularly well?

    I don't follow world economics very closely.


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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg
    Are there any other countries around the world where your ideas about some wealth-redistribution policies are working particularly well?
    Don't know, don't care. Do you have an answer?
    ...Just ask me...

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    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg
    Are there any other countries around the world where your ideas about some wealth-redistribution policies are working particularly well?

    I don't follow world economics very closely.


    OptiBoard. Come for the optics, stay for the convo ...
    What do you mean by "working particularly well?"

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    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    Don't know, don't care. Do you have an answer?
    Not a very precise one. But if the super-rich stop buying Ferraris, what would happen to all the workers at the Ferrari factory, and all the other workers who supply parts, materials or other services to that factory? Just not sure where you're headed with this.


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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg
    Not a very precise one. But if the super-rich stop buying Ferraris, what would happen to all the workers at the Ferrari factory, and all the other workers who supply parts, materials or other services to that factory? Just not sure where you're headed with this.
    The front line workers would be able to buy more refridgerators (as an example), and the unemployed Ferrari workers would be hired to make refridgerators. This may even create more jobs than those needed to make Ferraris.
    ...Just ask me...

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    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    I have no problem with someone living comfortably, but when they have air conditioned doghouses and both an inddor and outdoor pool in both of their homes (on Central Park and on Aruba), I think it's time for them to voluntarily improve the standard of living of the folks who actually create their wealth.
    Well, they have to pay for all the parts, materials and services that are needed to construct and maintain their home on Central Park and the other one on Aruba. They're paying someone to service and maintain their swimming pools. Unless they happen to read and be moved in some direction by your posts, what do you think the net result of "I think it's time for them..." is likely to be? You use the word "voluntarily", but I have the nagging feeling that underlying your posts is a desire for a more centrally planned and regulated national economy. In a word: Socialism.


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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Wow, we went from noblesse oblige to socialism without so much as a wink at progressive taxation.

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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg
    Well, they have to pay for all the parts, materials and services that are needed to construct and maintain their home on Central Park and the other one on Aruba. They're paying someone to service and maintain their swimming pools. Unless they happen to read and be moved in some direction by your posts, what do you think the net result of "I think it's time for them..." is likely to be? You use the word "voluntarily", but I have the nagging feeling that underlying your posts is a desire for a more centrally planned and regulated national economy. In a word: Socialism.
    What you call it, whether it works anywhere else, whether it's likely, who creates the jobs (very very rich or middle class) is immaterial and not my point. Please answer the question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    Why is our country better having more very, very rich people and very, very poor people, with a smaller middle class, rather than having a much larger middle class, and fewer very, very rich and very, very poor people??????
    ...Just ask me...

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    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    What you call it, whether it works anywhere else, whether it's likely, who creates the jobs (very very rich or middle class) is immaterial and not my point. Please answer the question:
    It probably would be better if the wealth could be redistributed as you indicate.

    More progressive tax rates? I'm not going to come out hard against it. But a cautionary note: Keep an eye out for the possible side effects that may be incurred in whatever movement would be undertaken towards this end. It sounds like the bottom line here is vote Democratic. What about their total package - what does it add, subtract or modify in addition to more progressive tax rates?

    Maybe some of those many forum lurkers and less frequent posters would like to step forward here...


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    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Confused

    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg
    It probably would be better if the wealth could be redistributed as you indicate.

    More progressive tax rates? I'm not going to come out hard against it. But a cautionary note: Keep an eye out for the possible side effects that may be incurred in whatever movement would be undertaken towards this end. It sounds like the bottom line here is vote Democratic. What about their total package - what does it add, subtract or modify in addition to more progressive tax rates?

    Maybe some of those many forum lurkers and less frequent posters would like to step forward here...


    OptiBoard. Come for the optics, stay for the convo ...
    Are "forum lurkers" a common phenom? I have a hard time imagining there are that many sad souls out there.

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    Seems to me that "redistribution of wealth" is what Karl Marx, Lennin and Joe Stalin sold. Didn't work well for anyone but Joe and it sure didn't work for his people.

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    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chm2023
    Are "forum lurkers" a common phenom? I have a hard time imagining there are that many sad souls out there.
    There are currently 5147 registered OptiBoard members. But it seems to me that we have pretty much the same rather limited set of "voices" every day on these convo threads. I guess it would be chaos if everybody started posting, but I often wonder what the quieter members might have to say about these topics. Members who don't post or only post in a blue moon would be "lurkers" - more or less.


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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg
    It probably would be better if the wealth could be redistributed as you indicate.
    Thank you for an answer, Rinnsey.:cheers:
    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg
    More progressive tax rates? I'm not going to come out hard against it. But a cautionary note: Keep an eye out for the possible side effects that may be incurred in whatever movement would be undertaken towards this end. It sounds like the bottom line here is vote Democratic. What about their total package - what does it add, subtract or modify in addition to more progressive tax rates?
    ...
    I didn't suggest more progressive tax rates.
    In another thread, I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    How about taxing discretionary income? The dollar amount it takes to be clothed, fed, sheltered, and even some creature comforts can be quantified, more or less. Taxes can be applied to any income over and above that level.
    And Robert improved the concept by saying:
    Quote Originally Posted by shanbaum
    I think you mean not taxing non-discretionary income; taxing people who earn below a certain amount strikes me as adding insult to injury.
    I'm not especially for more progressive tax rates. I DO think it needs to be acknowledged that the amount of income that it takes just to "live" should not be taxed. It's disposable income that needs to be taxed. I also believe in eliminating "tax shelters" and other techniques that wealthy people use to avoid paying taxes on their disposable income.
    ...Just ask me...

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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson

    Seems to me that "redistribution of wealth" is what Karl Marx, Lennin and Joe Stalin sold.
    Amongst others:

    "'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap into the corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest: you shall leave them for the poor, and for the foreigner. I am Yahweh your God.'" Leviticus 23:22.

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    Angry

    Shanebaum: We already have charity contributions, we have the lower income people paying no taxes, we have the "rich" paying 90% of all taxes. How much more can be done to make things "fair?" The rich and the productive are not going to bother to do things that accumulate wealth or remain productive it the burden of taxes becomes higher and they get to keep even less of thier hard earned productivity.

    And you will note even gleaners had to harvest thier own dole, todays "entitled" don't even want to pick thier free harvest.

    Chip

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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson

    Shanebaum: We already have charity contributions, we have the lower income people paying no taxes, we have the "rich" paying 90% of all taxes. How much more can be done to make things "fair?" The rich and the productive are not going to bother to do things that accumulate wealth or remain productive it the burden of taxes becomes higher and they get to keep even less of thier hard earned productivity.

    And you will note even gleaners had to harvest thier own dole, todays "entitled" don't even want to pick thier free harvest.

    Chip
    Well, I don't know what qualifies as "rich" in your mind, but I do know that as of a few years ago, before the Bush tax changes, the top 2% of earners paid 27% of all taxes, and earned 25% of all income; that's a pretty good indicator of progressivity (i.e., 2%). At this point, I suspect that our tax system is somewhat regressive at the top end (that is, I bet that the top 2% of earners now pay a lower percentage of total tax than they earn as a percentage of total income.

    Your other point is belied by the fact that we have a historical record that demonstrates no apparent correlation between top marginal tax rates and growth (as opposed to the inverse correlation you claim). I posted a chart that shows this a while back.

    As for your unsupported but incorrigible belief that the poor are cheating the rest of us, I give up.

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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    The rich and the productive are not going to bother to do things that accumulate wealth or remain productive it the burden of taxes becomes higher and they get to keep even less of thier hard earned productivity.

    Chip
    Chip, what are they going to do? Not work? Not earn a living? And if they foolishly choose not to work, that leaves the door open for someone of moderate income to do whatever that rich person stopped doing, and make money for him/herself. So the job gets done, the money is earned, it just doesn't go into the already rich person's pocket! That's a good thing, isn't it?
    ...Just ask me...

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    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    remember comunisim (in its purest form)?

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    Spex if they were capable and inclined to do that rich person's job, they wouldn't need taxpayer assistance. I have been supporting myself since I was 14, since that time I have been out of work for 3 days. I got fired on a Friday and we had a Hurricaine (Carla) on Saturday so it took me til Wednesday to get another job. I have had times in my life where I worked 4 jobs (Oh Lord, I was taking employment away from three worthless bums). I don't understand why any able bodied person with a half sound mind should need help from anyone finding a job or from working.

    Chip

    I see a lot of one eyed patients who are on or trying to get on "disablility". The man (Vernon Lamb) who taught me how to paint artificial eyes, rode bulls, flew airplanes, fished hunted, ran a contact lens manufactureing company, chased women, made artificial eyes, ran an optical shop and did everything you would think a West Texas cowboy would do. And he had only one eye.

    Now that I think about it, I have done all that at one time or another I have done all this myself albeit binocularly.

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    I'm generally to the left of center, but consider this:

    If we took a town somewhere in "middle America" (or anywhere else for that matter), and gave every head of household 1 million dollars on next Monday, by Tuesday there would be rich people and poor people.

    Redistributing the wealth isn't a perfect solution.

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