Tracing a frame

**gola** · 01-17-2006, 11:00 PM

Most of the frames we mount lenses on are metals. In most of them the metal is thin and when you remove the demolens to trace them they change the shape. Other come already twisted on the bridge and we have to check and adjust almost every frame. Sometimes we have to trace the demolens instead the frame.
It is not like in the old times when the frames material was thick enough to maintain the shape. There where no demolens in most of them.

We do about 70 to 100 jobs a day. Does this happend to everyone? How does large labs do when they process thousands of jobs a day?
Do they keep a database of the frame shapes so that they do not have to trace every frame again?

Salesmans of tracers and edgers while talking about their product make look this proccess very easy but real life if very diferent.

We have TSM-30 as the shape server and Weco CNC-90 and 430 edgers and a 3d tracer from Weco.
We trace every frame.
How does others do?.

**For-Life** · 01-17-2006, 11:02 PM

change frame suppliers. The demo lens should not be holding the shape of the frame and the frame should not be twisted.

**chip anderson** · 01-18-2006, 07:09 AM

Gola: Most people in this circumstance, trace the demo lens.

**shanbaum** · 01-18-2006, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by chip anderson

Gola: Most people in this circumstance, trace the demo lens.

That's often a bad idea; many demo lenses are quite thin, and snapped into and held in place by being misshapen - slightly large at the sides. The deformation caused by insertion creates a tension force against the eyewire.

**chip anderson** · 01-18-2006, 10:33 AM

OK: Shanebaum, in the absence of a pattern what's your alternative?

**Aarlan** · 01-18-2006, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by For-Life

change frame suppliers. The demo lens should not be holding the shape of the frame and the frame should not be twisted.

I agree. What frames are you using that are presenting this much of a problem?

AA

**gola** · 01-18-2006, 11:43 AM

We are in Panama, Central America. Most of the frames are close out from distribuitors in U.S.. Our customers can not afford to buy expensive frames.
I understand that some are made in China. But i has seen this problem with expensive frames too. Maybe i am to extrict for lens aligment but it ugly to see a Flat top rotated because the pattern was not made on axis. who could wear a off axis PAL.

If would be ideal if manufactures of frames could provide instead of plastic pattern, (they no longer provide that too) with a place to download a file that would have the data that is stored for a pattern in a patternless system. You would need a software that would emulate a trace and would read from that file as it where tracing a frame. No more off axis, remote tracing, expensive tracers, etc. I know that all frames of the same model and same marked eye size does not have the exactly the same size but we could be a simple tracer that trace the frame only to achive the circunsference of the frame you are going to work with. This circunsference would be compared with the one on the file and that would give you the size difference.

It would not be to difficult. Innovations already let us export a shape in OMA data type and import it with the "File processor". If it is running you just have to put that file in the incoming directory and it would be imported. The OMA file can be edited with a text editor to change the name of the pattern so it would not override one you already have.

**shanbaum** · 01-18-2006, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by chip anderson

OK: Shanebaum, in the absence of a pattern what's your alternative?

Chip, I don't actually solve all the problems I point out.

There are tracers that trace more gently than the one mentioned. But if a frame lacks sufficient substance to be traced by any tracer, and there's no pattern, and the demo lens doesn't match the shape, well, that is a pickle.

Gola's ideal is not too far from reality; the VCA has established a standard file format for the distribution of frame shape data (along with drilling specifications). I don't know if any frame vendors have started doing this independently, but at least one data aggregator either has or is about to release a subscription product that provides exactly this data.

**fjpod** · 01-18-2006, 04:41 PM

Certain tracers are more prone to distorting eyewires than others. It helps to have one with a light touch.

Many cheap import frames, and patients own used frames have dissimilar, or twisted right and left eyewires. Sometimes we only trace the "best" side and the tracer mirrors the image for the other side and at least we get two symmetrical lenses.

**Ed_Optician** · 01-18-2006, 05:32 PM

If all else fails make the pattern by hand like we used to do. Old fashioned sharpie marker, tin snips ands zyl file will never fail you. Once you make a pattern for a frame like this identify the pattern and keep it until the frame is discontinued.
Saqlesmen demonstrate on easy frames not the high wrap or skinny eyewire frames

Ed

**F.Bourreau** · 01-22-2006, 12:05 PM

We make 2500 jobs a day and fortunately we have a database of trace..... but some suppliers of frame are not really stable on a same reference of frame.... There is no choice to trace some frames (But if you expect deformation of the shape, the trick is to use the shape of the database and to make an homothetic modification according of the variation of the peripheric value)

Good Luck and sorry for my "frenchy Language" hopefully you'll understand it ;-)
Fred

**QDO1** · 01-22-2006, 01:32 PM

make a handmade former, and either use it or trace it. watch your sizing

Old school style rules!

**chip anderson** · 01-22-2006, 02:27 PM

Ever wonder why frame manufacturers don't have the trace information available on line for labs to use free? Would make us all look better and you can bet they have the info.

Chip

**QDO1** · 01-22-2006, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by chip anderson

Ever wonder why frame manufacturers don't have the trace information available on line for labs to use free? Would make us all look better and you can bet they have the info.

Chip

a lot of manufacturers do... But in the overall sense i totally agree

**gola** · 01-23-2006, 07:42 PM

Fred:
Thanks for the information. To have a database of shape is the most logical way to go. I has been thinking about it but i was not clear if that was a good idea. If it works for 2500 job a day, it should work for me too. how do you access those manufacturer site where the shapes are?

**Clive Noble** · 01-24-2006, 12:00 AM

Now there's a business opportunity for an enterprising person.

Start an on-line company (website) with EVERY current frame shape in all sizes from EVERY frame manufacturer/supplier in the world.

You could charge an annual subscription to users or a 'one-time' download fee for shapes and also offer to pay a 'user' fee to the frame manufacturer in order to get their co-operation in passing over the various frame shapes.

It would be an incredible amount of work to set up and keep up to date, but can you imagine how many optical labs and dispensers there are in the world who would use this service.

I would think it would also require some sort of special software download for the user......... everything is possible today!

If you set it up...... remember, I told you.... you saw it here first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clive

**fjpod** · 01-24-2006, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Clive Noble

Now there's a business opportunity for an enterprising person.

Start an on-line company (website) with EVERY current frame shape in all sizes from EVERY frame manufacturer/supplier in the world.

You could charge an annual subscription to users or a 'one-time' download fee for shapes and also offer to pay a 'user' fee to the frame manufacturer in order to get their co-operation in passing over the various frame shapes.

It would be an incredible amount of work to set up and keep up to date, but can you imagine how many optical labs and dispensers there are in the world who would use this service.

I would think it would also require some sort of special software download for the user......... everything is possible today!

If you set it up...... remember, I told you.... you saw it here first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clive

Hasn't Frame Facts done this yet? If they haven't, they must be working on it. I can only imagine what they would charge.

**edKENdance** · 01-24-2006, 01:28 AM

You just have to tighten the eyewire screws with more fervor.:)

**Chris Ryser** · 01-24-2006, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by QDO1

make a handmade former, and either use it or trace it. watch your sizing
Old school style rules!

You just hit the nail on the head...................but how many these days are able to do that ?

**gola** · 01-24-2006, 08:01 AM

Today there are not many people able to make a handmade former. So this is not an option for everyone. There has been many advances in our field to make thinks easier so that almost anyone can do the job without so much experience.
But i do not undestand why we keep tracing every frame and some lenses are lost because of a bad trace. (always the most expensive ones). This is a repetitive task made day by day in every lap of the world. There sould be a esaier way.

Clive Noble said "Now there's a business opportunity for an enterprising person."

But why should we wait for this to happend?
What about a group of persons related to the optical bussines that set a site where shapes are stored and charge companies for advetisement in order to pay for expenses?.
That way everyone could upload their traces. Once this traces are used by a number of other labs, the trace could be raised to a category of trusted one.
It is true that companies change of styles and repeat the same name. I am shure that there must be a way to solve this too.

Just think of those places where you can download MP3 songs on internet and the way they manage it. There are many options to chose from.

**QDO1** · 01-24-2006, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by gola

Today there are not many people able to make a handmade former. So this is not an option for everyone. There has been many advances in our field to make thinks easier so that almost anyone can do the job without so much experience.
But i do not undestand why we keep tracing every frame and some lenses are lost because of a bad trace. (always the most expensive ones). This is a repetitive task made day by day in every lap of the world. There sould be a esaier way.

Clive Noble said "Now there's a business opportunity for an enterprising person."

But why should we wait for this to happend?
What about a group of persons related to the optical bussines that set a site where shapes are stored and charge companies for advetisement in order to pay for expenses?.
That way everyone could upload their traces. Once this traces are used by a number of other labs, the trace could be raised to a category of trusted one.
It is true that companies change of styles and repeat the same name. I am shure that there must be a way to solve this too.

Just think of those places where you can download MP3 songs on internet and the way they manage it. There are many options to chose from.

I will write the website, who wants to supply the data?

**gola** · 01-25-2006, 05:20 PM

Patterns should be supplied by those that want to download.

There are many things to decide and some problems to solve.
What type of file is going to be the standard. As far as i know Innovations can export data to OMA and DVI but i has been succesfull importing only on OMA type.
A list of frame manufactures would be needed since each frame need to have the name of the manufacturer correctly writen.
If there are people interested i an shure there would be great ideas about it.

**shanbaum** · 01-25-2006, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by gola

Patterns should be supplied by those that want to download.

There are many things to decide and some problems to solve.
What type of file is going to be the standard. As far as i know Innovations can export data to OMA and DVI but i has been succesfull importing only on OMA type.
A list of frame manufactures would be needed since each frame need to have the name of the manufacturer correctly writen.
If there are people interested i an shure there would be great ideas about it.

There never was such a thing as a "standard" DVI file; the only file format that's ever been promulgated in a standard is OMA (a/k/a ISO 16284).

**gola** · 01-25-2006, 09:28 PM

I was wrong when i said that Innovations export trace as DVI file type it should be FT and OMA file type.
Does anyone know where i can learn more about the structure of a OMA file?

**shanbaum** · 01-26-2006, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by gola

I was wrong when i said that Innovations export trace as DVI file type it should be FT and OMA file type.
Does anyone know where i can learn more about the structure of a OMA file?

You can either buy the ANSI, ISO or VCA standards, or, export a file and look at it - it's pretty obvious what's contained and how.

However, since your software can import and export such files, why do you think you need to understand the details of such a file's structure? Are you planning on creating them by hand?