What's going to happen to Transitions imbibed technology when everyone is doing free-form?
Will Transitions have to develop "in-mass" technology?
The whole beauty of the Transitions concept is that it can be applied to different lens designs, materials, etc. That may eventually be a thing of the past, right?
Freeform.................
drk, i don't think everybody is doing freeform at this stage and it will be quite some time until that happens,if ever it will hapen.Originally Posted by drk
I am definatley NOT doing free form lenses.
How long do you think it will take, Chris, before the majority of lenses (even SV) are freeform?
The impact of Free Form surfacing on Transitions will be that they will only have to supply SFSV lens blanks for Free Form orders. Complex Curves are cut on the back surface not affecting the transitions performance. Semi finish lenses will still be used with Free Form Surfacing, they will all be SFSV. The benefit is inventory levels are dramaticallly reduced.
I WANT to do free form lenses !!
Seriously, we may have to go to Sunsensors or maybe the new Vision-ese material.
So, the answer is:
With Transitions, semi-finished single vision lens blanks will be supplied (like now) and any free-form SV or progressive curve will be cut on the back.
If the lens needs to be front surface aspheric (a la high index), or is a progressive design that entails front surface curvature being cut (as opposed to a design that has special 360 degree digitally-made molds, for example), then NO TRANSITIONS FOR YOU!
It does seem like most progressive designers will opt for back surface design, though, although I don't know what I'm talking about.
I guess in aspheric high index lenses, we'd have to stock them as semi-finished, anyway. Maybe someone will come up with an in-mass high index blank for freeform.
I guess it's not a huge deal, then?
The Varilux Ipseo is available in transitions and it is a free form.
Aaah. But how? Must be a partially on front and partially on back progressive design? I guess if you are going to make variations on the lens design, the back surface is as good as the front?
It seems intuitive to me that working both sides leaves the most flexibility for design maximization, and that the cost of the blank would go down dramatically, as it is not as "value added" a product.
I really do not think it would cost more per unit. When it comes down to it I think the cost of surfacing a blank is relatively the same as doing a whole free form lens. I do not know how they would incorportate the transitions at that point, but I cannot really see it costing that much more.
Everybody doing Free-form???? Not hardly--not everyone, not every job. You'll never make a segmented bifocal with front-side surfacing. Nor would you ever make single vision. Far cheaper, quicker, and easier to use standard blanks like we do today.
As far as progressives, it's a HUGE leap to think that every progressive is going to be surfaced on both sides. Not every material lends itself to direct surfacing, nor will every design magically be available in anything other than standard format. It has yet to be proven that direct surfaced progressives will be cheaper to produce, especially given the little problem of that half-million dollars worth of equipment required to play the game. And if you have to polish up both sides, the job takes twice as long to produce--are you willing to pay the same or more, and wait longer, to get the same product?
Note that Physio 360, which has every buzzword going for it in the press releases, is available in Transitions. That's because the free-form surfacing is back-side only, which will probably be a common model.
And of course, the alternatives mentioned--Sunsensors, VE Life-Rx--are limited in material availability. Are you willing to use a clunky 1.56 material so you can have SunSensors in-mass photochromic? Doubtful.
Transitions a thing of the past? Not hardly.
RT
That is 100% correct!
If you WANT to do more Free-For lenses, let put together this list of options.
Plastic Clear Essilor Definity
Plastic Clear Essilor Definity Short
Plastic Trans Gray Essilor Definity
Plastic Trans Gray Essilor Definity Short
Plastic Colormatic Gray Rodenstock Multigressiv
Plastic Colormatic Brown Rodenstock Multigressiv
Plastic Polaroid Gray Essilor Definity
Plastic Polaroid Gray Essilor Definity Short
Plastic Polaroid Brown Essilor Definity
Plastic Polaroid Brown Essilor Definity Short
Polycarbonate Clear Varilux Physio 360
Polycarbonate Clear Essilor Definity
Polycarbonate Clear Essilor Definity Short
Polycarbonate Trans V Gray Varilux Physio 360
Polycarbonate Trans V Gray Essilor Definity
Polycarbonate Trans V Gray Essilor Definity Short
Polycarbonate Trans V Brown Varilux Physio 360
Polycarboante Trans V Brown Essilor Definity
Polycarbonate Trans V Brown Essilor Definity Short
High Index 1.60 Zeiss Individual
High Index 1.60 Zeiss Short i
High Index 1.60 Essilor Definity
High Index 1.60 Essilor Definity Short
High Index 1.60 Rodenstock Multigressiv
Deluxe Index 1.67 Seiko Super Proceed Internal
Deluxe Index 1.67 Zeiss Individual
Deluxe Index 1.67 Zeiss Short i
Deluxe Index 1.67 Varilux Ipseo
Deluxe Index 1.67 Varilux Physio 360
Deluxe Index 1.67 SolaOne HD
Deluxe Index 1.67 Transitions V Gray Varilux Physio 360
Deluxe Index 1.67 Transitions V Brown Varilux Phsyio 360
Deluxe Index 1.67 Transitions V Gray SolaOne HD
Essilor Definity 19+mm
Essilor Definity Short 15-18mm
*Available with Crizal/Crizal Alize'/Backside AR on POL/no AR
Varilux Physio 360 17+mm
*Come standard with Crizal Alize' w/ Clear Guard
Varilux Ipseo 15+mm
*Come standard with Crizal Alize'
Rodenstock Multigressiv
*Available with or without Rodenstock AR
Seiko Super Proceed Internal
*Come standard with Seiko AR
Zeiss Individual 19+mm
Zeiss Short i 15-18mm
*Come standard with Zeiss Carat Advantage
SolaONE HD 18+mm
*Come standard with Teflon Eayscare? coating
I left Shamir Autograph off the list because it is only available at a few select labs. I may have missed a few, but guess what? I actually have the day off. It is my addiction to the Optical Industry that draws me to this website day after day, while working or not.
Feel free to add more to the list. This will probably be a good resource for understanding the availability of Free-Form progressive lenses. Interestingly enough, in 2002, Cherry Optical held its first "What's New University" inwhich there was only one leading manufacturer talking about Free-Form PAL designs. At this years WNU, Saturday, March 29th @ Lambeau Field (all Independent ECPs are invited, no cost) all of the leading manufacturers have at least one Free-Form lens design available.
As a note we currently do 10 (average day) to 25 (great day) Free-Form PAL. Besides improved optics and the very best designs available there is the fact that these lenses are not available at Sears, Wal-Mart, and Lenscrafters. If you are interested in more info on these lenses, or pricing contact me directly at adamcherry@cherryopticalinc.com <- have to promote myself a little bit after all this typing!
Adam
Thanks for the posts!
So, the take home is that free-form generating is probably NOT going to be the dominant form of surfacing in the forseeable future? I'll buy that.
I guess what I'm thinking is that with consolidation in the laboratory side of the industry, that we're going to go to "superlabs" for all lenses.
It may be more realistic to think that there will be a split, somewhat, where "superlabs" do specialized work, and "local labs" do the standard work.
I'm beginning to believe that in the not-so-distant future, progressive designs will be one or the other:
1.) Custom-tailored for patient optimization by a machine owned by a lens manufacturer's superlab, and leased out to optical retailers. Yeah, it'll be called the "Ipseo", but since no two lenses will be alike, "Ipseo" is not so much a lens, but almost a proprietary process, involving the variable design protocols that will be used. (Note that patients will get a different design each time they select a different frame! Gone will be the thinking of "Let's don't rock her boat and keep her in progressive X, to avoid adaptation issues". Adaptation will be an assumed ability, in the future, although there's less to adapt to.)
2.) Off-the-rack standard lenses, that can be produced by local labs.
Given the fact that some of the newer AR coatings are mostly done by superlabs, already, and the increasing cost of equipment, I think there is going to be a bigger distinction between the two categories of labs in the future.
DKR
Your basic assumptions freeform are correct. Regarding the two side freeform vs. backside freeform vs. frontside freeform
All of the above are possible. I would think with transitions the individually front or dual surfaced freeform designs would not be applicable, (unless they were sent to transitions after surfacing for the application of transitions.)
Regarding who will be doing freeform:
Generally you are correct the larger lens owned labs will be the ones doing this.
My company is a niche Lens-Lab company. We have developed unique freeform capabilities. This technology we developed lead to use producing not only our ICE-TECH Advanced Polarized Thin-ICE lenses but we have a new offering in the works for clear optical lenses. I think there is a place in the market for local labs, large lens company labs and speciality labs such as the ICE-TECH Rx lab.
An example of our specialty is you have a patient who wants to were that 8 base wrap sunglass but has a -4.00 sph Rx the PD is 29. The lens is 62mm A and they don't want an edge thickness like a coke bottle. Now on top of this they want a blue mirror, with backside AR and an easy to clean super hydrophobic. ICE-TECH Rx can do this with a turn around of less than one week.
DRK,
Transitions Optical has been at the forefront of the freeform technologies development. We have been working with both the lens and equipment manufacturers since before the turn of the century (oh I love using that term...)
As noted both Essilor and Shamir offer freeform Transitions along with Carl Zeiss Vision. There maybe more suppliers outside of the US that I am not aware.
Three Rivers Optical uses their free form equipment to produce the O-Seg Transitions bi focal.
regards,
Jim
Jim Schafer
Retired From PPG Industries/
Transitions Optical, Inc.
When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say even less.
Paul Brown
Hey, they do at that! I've used that lens. So, how do you put a round seg on the front surface and still have imbibed photochromic chemical? Is that round seg on the back? I never thought to look, but I'll bet it is! Hmmm.
I am not really qualified to have a good opinion on this one. However I heard that the machinery is terribly expensive. That will rule out the small labs in the near future................and the larghe labs are mostly owned by our friends the big corporations that have no interest in that freeform should be a success.
So I would guess it be probably a longer wait than expected.
I dont think all customers will want to pay like 500.00 for a pair of freeform lenses.
No, but there is a market for it.
Chris, you bring up a very salient point. What value will the lens manufacturers supply when all that is needed for a freeform generator is a slab of urethane?????
Maybe they saw the writing on the wall before buying up all these labs?
All the manufacturing in the future could putatively be done at the wholesale lab level!!!!!
They don't all retail at $500. Perhaps the 1.67 with AR will retail at or near the $500.00 mark, but a pair of plastic clear without AR will not be much more expensive than say a Gradal Top, Panamic, Summit ECP.
Unless, of course, the retailor is ripping you off. :)
Adam
I think you are on the right track here. The role of the manufacturers will be R&D along with supplying data points and ensuring proper manufacturering procedures.
The ultimate goal is to be able to reduce inventories through advanced lenses. The best example would be the new Physio & Physio 360. Physio standard claims to be the best of the Varilux standard designs and should be used to upgrade all Comfort wearers and convert all Panamic wearers. One great advantage to this has to be the fact that (in a perfect society) the inventory of Comforts/Panamics at the labs could be reduced and perhaps even eliminated. Problem is, if Physio is unable to dethrown Panamic/Comfort then there is yet another inventory of Varilux product (not cheap) at labs all across the country.
With a lens like Physio 360 or Free-Form lenses in general the inventory is reduced significantly!
Adam
...that almost every lens produced within 10 years will be freeform produced.
Are there any big patent battles going on? If yes, it might be longer than that; if no, it could be sooner...
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