Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 66

Thread: Time for some clarity on progressive technology...

  1. #26
    Optical Educator
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Tampa, Florida
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    1,044

    worldwide patents

    Hi QDO1,

    I think Chris was referring to US patents, as we were discussing the production of freeform PALs in the US. Is there such a thing as a worldwide patent? I would guess that a manufacturer must apply for a patent in each country they wish to sell in?

    (If I am wrong, please correct me...this is not my area of expertise).

    : )

    Laurie

  2. #27
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Hickory Creek, TX
    Occupation
    Lens Manufacturer
    Posts
    4,964
    Wow, a great deal of discussion (which I've not had the opportunity to read in entirety) on this thread!

    A good lens design on the front is better on the back. A great lens design on the front is fantastic on the back.
    Theoretically speaking, this is true- but in actual wear, it doesn't bear out. Case in point, Varilux Ipseo is currently surfaced with all power on the backside (both distance Rx and progression). The front is spherical. In its original form, the progression was placed on the front and the distance Rx on the back. Wearer experience between the two yields no difference in actual visual perception. Perhaps one could argue that Varilux Ipseo isn't a "good" or "great" design- I suppose it depends upon whatever measures one uses to determine the quality of the design- based on wearer tests, Varilux Ipseo seems to be a pretty great design.
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
    Vice President Professional Services
    Essilor of America

    http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74

  3. #28
    Allen Weatherby
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Occupation
    Other Optical Manufacturer or Vendor
    Posts
    1,286

    A few more questions for Pete and Essilor

    Pete, can you comment on the Ipseo and the Seiko-Epson patent. Since this lens uses a spherical front surface and a digital back surface, do you know if Essilor has a patent use agreement from Seiko-Epson.

    Why was the Ipseo design changed from the front and backside to just the backsurface?

  4. #29
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kansas City, Kansas, United States
    Occupation
    Lens Manufacturer
    Posts
    3,700
    Regarding patents on back-side free-form progressive lenses, since this issue keeps coming up (especially in the context of Shamir), Zeiss has a patent on this technology for certain. I'm not aware of any Shamir patents that supersede this one.

    Regarding the preferred use of free-form front-surface versus free-form back-surface progressive lenses, here are a few (but not all) of the advantages and disadvantages to both approaches:
    1. Back-side designs probably reduce distortion slightly, since the magnification differences due to strictly to the front surface curvature are eliminated on the back.
    2. Back-side designs increase the field of view slightly, since the zones of clear vision are brought slightly closer to the eye.
    3. Back-side designs only have to be surfaced once, which cuts down on production time, quality issues, and so on.
    4. Front-side designs may require less eye movement to reach the near zone, since the near zone is brought closer to the eye.
    5. Front-side designs may have a broader prescription range, since it is often more difficult to produce higher cyls in complex surfaces with a free-form generating system.
    Regarding, levels of "individualization," they vary considerably. AWTECH has summed up many of the differences already. Here are just a few (but, again, not all) of the possibilities that you are likely to run into:
    1. Free-form lens with no individualized optimization (e.g., the original Definity lens)
    2. Free-form lens with a prescription "tweak" at the distance or near reference points
    3. Free-form lens with full prescription optimization over the entire lens based on average parameters, with or without the "tweak" at the reference points
    4. Free-form lens with full prescription optimization over the entire lens based on specified parameters (requires additional measurements)
    5. Free-form lens with design customization (i.e., the viewing zone configuration, periphery design, and/or corridor length is modified)
    6. Free-form lens with design customization and full prescription optimization, with or without the "tweak" at the reference points
    Note that any lens with a prescription "tweak" at the distance and/or near reference points will require a Compensated Rx in order to verify the original prescription.
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  5. #30
    Allen Weatherby
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Occupation
    Other Optical Manufacturer or Vendor
    Posts
    1,286

    Is there such a thing as a worldwide patent?

    Laurie writes;

    Is there such a thing as a worldwide patent?
    No there is no such worldwide patent. Each country that offers patent protection such as the US or Japan require the filing for the patent within that country. In recent years an exception in Europe has evolved due to the EU. This follows the common currency the Euro. No more Peso, Lire, Francs, DM etc., I can not from memory recall what European Countries can be handled with one application but I believe that this is controlled from Spain.

  6. #31
    Optical Clairvoyant OptiBoard Bronze Supporter Andrew Weiss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Brisbane,QLD, Australia
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    1,397
    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    Andrew, I think the Definity must be good, based on what you say and what I've read. What is your add power, BTW? You look like about a +1.00;)
    Yeah, right I'm 61, my friend. My add is 2.50. (when you look at the my avatar photo, Fester says he's the one in the foreground).
    Andrew

    "One must remember that at the end of the road, there is a path" --- Fortune Cookie

  7. #32
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    GA
    Occupation
    Lens Manufacturer
    Posts
    29
    [QUOTE=Andrew Weiss]Laurie, does this mean the Autograph puts the progressive add on the back surface? or does it use the Multigressiv approach and use a standardized, molded front surface with the add and then freeform-grind the back surface? Do you know if they use similar parameters as Rodenstock does in designing the back surface for each lens?

    **********************************************************
    Please let me clarify one thing.... "a standardized, molded front surface with the add and then freeform-grinding the back surface"
    falls into a catagory of "half-freeform" (not a progressive technology)
    .....kind of like a woman being "half pregnant"........
    It is what is is, or it isn't!

    this, by the way, is a common misconception...

  8. #33
    Allen Weatherby
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Occupation
    Other Optical Manufacturer or Vendor
    Posts
    1,286

    Shamir Autograph

    The Shamir Autograph uses the back surface for the Rx, the front is spherical, from what I have seen of this lens in the past. They may have changed this to avoid a potential patent problem.

    As for the term Freeform and what it means, I think the meaning is being formed as this concept slowly comes into the market place.

    Freeform can mean almost anything. Think about it "Free" no restrictions and "Form" shape. I would say a shape with no restrictions is the actual meaning. In other threads the word Freeform has been discussed and I have compared it to Aspheric.
    Example:
    A-Walk into any retail optical store and ask an optician what Aspheric means and you will get an answer talking about a design of a lens that is non spherical in one meridian used to give good vision with a thinner lens.
    B-Walk into a senior class at any engineering college and ask what Aspheric means and I will be 99.9% say non-spherical.

    The same is happening to the word Freeform in the Optician world. A Freefrom lens may come to mean:
    "The description of the surface of a lens produced using x,y,z data point files on one surface."

    Using this definition a molded front surface lens that is processed on the backsurface with a data point file could be called a Freeform lens.
    Last edited by AWTECH; 02-03-2006 at 06:25 PM.

  9. #34
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    GA
    Occupation
    Lens Manufacturer
    Posts
    29
    AWTECH: You seem to be on target in your description of freeform until the last statement....if, as you stated, "x y z data points are applied on one surface".....this would include a progressive design specific to the data in the x y points.....therefore, pre-made molds are not needed... (one less step in degrading the original mathematical formula of the design)

    Freeform technology applies x y z data points at the same time the Rx is applied.

  10. #35
    Allen Weatherby
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Occupation
    Other Optical Manufacturer or Vendor
    Posts
    1,286

    Slight revision to my earlier statement

    In a previous post I said:

    The same is happening to the word Freeform in the Optician world. A Freefrom lens may come to mean:
    "The description of the surface of a lens produced using x,y,z data point files on one surface."
    Lensgeek then commented:

    You seem to be on target in your description of freeform until the last statement....if, as you stated, "x y z data points are applied on one surface".....this would include a progressive design specific to the data in the x y points.....therefore, pre-made molds are not needed... (one less step in degrading the original mathematical formula of the design)
    MY REVISED VERSION OF WHAT FREEFORM MAY COME TO MEAN TO OPTICIANS

    Freeform could come to mean

    "The description of the surface of a lens produced using x,y,z data point files configured to produce a progressive lens."

    I do not think the work Freeform will be limited to one surface.

  11. #36
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kansas City, Kansas, United States
    Occupation
    Lens Manufacturer
    Posts
    3,700
    I do not think the work Freeform will be limited to one surface.
    Nor is it limited to progressive surfaces. You might check out this article on free-form and its applications, if you haven't already.
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  12. #37
    Allen Weatherby
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Occupation
    Other Optical Manufacturer or Vendor
    Posts
    1,286

    My thoughts on the word "Freeform"

    Yes Darryl you are correct:

    Nor is it limited to progressive surfaces.
    However, my point was that the direction I see the word taking on in the world of Optician's, is connected to progressives. The word "Freeform" is in the early stages of what happened to the word "Aspheric". Aspheric means something completely different to an optician than it does to an engineer.

    My guess is in two years you ask an optican who has been in the field for only one year what Freeform means and they will include the word progressive.

    This is only my opinon, it is not what the word actually means to anyone outside of the opticians world.

  13. #38
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kansas City, Kansas, United States
    Occupation
    Lens Manufacturer
    Posts
    3,700
    However, my point was that the direction I see the word taking on in the world of Optician's, is connected to progressives... My guess is in two years you ask an optican who has been in the field for only one year what Freeform means and they will include the word progressive.
    All the more reason for people like us to help clarify such terms. ;)

    Ultimately, a "free-form" lens is simply a lens made using a free-form generator, and can include lenses as simple as a basic sphere. There is nothing inherently special about a free-form lens, and you can actually make any "free-form design" in a semi-finished form. (For that matter, the machines used to produce semi-finished molds are very similar to free-form generators.)

    The real benefit of free-form technology comes from the ability to create -- or customize -- a lens design for a specific customer. This isn't something you can do with traditional semi-finished manufacturing. However, the benefit versus cost of customizing a lens design is better for progressive lenses, which is why this technology is often used for progressives instead of, say, single vision lenses.
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  14. #39
    Allen Weatherby
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Occupation
    Other Optical Manufacturer or Vendor
    Posts
    1,286

    I agree with you Darryl

    Darryl you make great points:
    Ultimately, a "free-form" lens is simply a lens made using a free-form generator, and can include lenses as simple as a basic sphere. There is nothing inherently special about a free-form lens, and you can actually make any "free-form design" in a semi-finished form. (For that matter, the machines used to produce semi-finished molds are very similar to free-form generators.)

    The real benefit of free-form technology comes from the ability to create -- or customize -- a lens design for a specific customer. This isn't something you can do with traditional semi-finished manufacturing. However, the benefit versus cost of customizing a lens design is better for progressive lenses, which is why this technology is often used for progressives instead of, say, single vision lenses.
    My company actually specializes in Freeform single vision optimized for our own ICE-TECH Advanced Polarized lens. We call it Thin-ICE Technology which is a freeform individualized lens designed to be thinner and more accurate, allowing higher power Rx lenses to be fitted with 6 or 8 base front curves. This as you point out is a more expensive process than traditional lens production but for the segment of the market that wants and/or needs such specialized lenses the concept of freeform allows such lenses to be produced. One of the expense items in these limited production lens offerings is the software development amortization. Microsoft doesn't make a $299 lens design software package.

  15. #40
    OptiBoard Apprentice eyeboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    liverpool, england
    Occupation
    Optometrist
    Posts
    49

    Autograph

    I rang Shamir today, who told me that the Autograph is front surface progressive, but has been made to be worked in flatter curves i.e better cosmetically whilst giving the same performance as a steeper curve.

  16. #41
    Allen Weatherby
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Occupation
    Other Optical Manufacturer or Vendor
    Posts
    1,286
    Eyeboy said:

    I rang Shamir today, who told me that the Autograph is front surface progressive, but has been made to be worked in flatter curves i.e better cosmetically whilst giving the same performance as a steeper curve.
    You might want to call Shamir back and ask for a technical person familiar with their freeform designs:

    http://www.shamir.co.il/products_1.asp

    This is the link to Shamirs website that says the Autograph is a backside design.

    As I said earlier in this thread my company only does freeform and I am quite familiar with many of the designs in the market. When a company primarily does traditional front side progressives and only has the freeform as small portion of there offerings it is difficult to train everyone on the differences.

    It is information like this that is passed on from manufacturers to opticans and then passed on to consumers that creates non factual infomation in the market place.

  17. #42
    OptiBoard Apprentice eyeboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    liverpool, england
    Occupation
    Optometrist
    Posts
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by AWTECH
    Eyeboy said:

    You might want to call Shamir back and ask for a technical person familiar with their freeform designs:

    http://www.shamir.co.il/products_1.asp

    This is the link to Shamirs website that says the Autograph is a backside design.

    As I said earlier in this thread my company only does freeform and I am quite familiar with many of the designs in the market. When a company primarily does traditional front side progressives and only has the freeform as small portion of there offerings it is difficult to train everyone on the differences.

    It is information like this that is passed on from manufacturers to opticans and then passed on to consumers that creates non factual infomation in the market place.
    :hammer: Rechecked the price list and I'm wrong the Autograph is backside, it is the Creation which is frontside Free form designed varifocal. since you know so much about the free-form stuff how is frontside free-form design better than your average front side progressive?

  18. #43
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kansas City, Kansas, United States
    Occupation
    Lens Manufacturer
    Posts
    3,700
    it is the Creation which is frontside Free form designed varifocal.
    We call those "semi-finished" progressive lenses. ;)
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  19. #44
    Bad address email on file
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Bulgaria
    Occupation
    Optical Laboratory Technician
    Posts
    17
    Rodenstock and Seiko are the first who made double aspheric progressives.

  20. #45
    OptiBoard Apprentice eyeboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    liverpool, england
    Occupation
    Optometrist
    Posts
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Meister
    We call those "semi-finished" progressive lenses. ;)
    Yeah I know but this is what they told me, that this lens design allows for flatter lenses???0

  21. #46
    Allen Weatherby
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Occupation
    Other Optical Manufacturer or Vendor
    Posts
    1,286
    This Shamir Creation maybe a copy (Creation) of the Seiko design using multiple spherical front base curves. Seiko uses 10 different spherical front base curves for MR-10 1.67 lenses. This produces a very thin lens and there are over 2,500,000 individual lens designs available, (without counting any with prism).

  22. #47
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kansas City, Kansas, United States
    Occupation
    Lens Manufacturer
    Posts
    3,700
    So, are you guys saying that each Shamir Creation is produced at the laboratory using a free-form generator (because my impression was that labs order it as a semi-finished lens blank and then surface it normally) or that Shamir is actually manually surfacing each and every lens blank before they send them to the lab (which would be very cost-prohibitive)?
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  23. #48
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Jubilee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    United States
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    3,197
    My understanding after talking to our local lab, is that the lens is similar to the Physio. Optimized front surface is created through free form technology, using regular back side surfacing methods..


    Cassandra
    "Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland

  24. #49
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kansas City, Kansas, United States
    Occupation
    Lens Manufacturer
    Posts
    3,700
    Varilux Physio uses a semi-finished progressive lens surface. While the molds used to manufacture Physio may have been produced using "free-form" technology, this is true for virtualy all semi-finished progressive lenses.
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  25. #50
    Allen Weatherby
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Occupation
    Other Optical Manufacturer or Vendor
    Posts
    1,286
    Shamir Creation does appear to be a traditional PAL front surface lens with the lab surfacing the back. The claim on their web site regarding this lens is that it uses 6 different base curves to create a thinner lens.

    As I stated before the Seiko method of 10 different base curves does offer a thinner lens design throughout the prescription range.

    I was at first under the impression that this product was also freeform produced.

    It seems that some lens manufacturers are trying to capitalize on the buzz of freeform by claiming their traditional PAL designs are made in molds using freeform technology.

    As Darryl points out this the method used by all PAL manufactureres to produce their molds.

    Nothing new and different just a different way of saying we have a great new lens design.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Best Progressive Lens Technology
    By Shanebug in forum General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 12-03-2004, 11:22 AM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-03-2003, 08:56 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-20-2003, 04:06 PM
  4. Essilor And Satis Enter Into Technology And Branding Alliance
    By Newsroom in forum Optical Industry News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-21-2003, 02:35 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •