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Thread: Read this book!!

  1. #1
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Read this book!!

    http://www.powells.com/review/2005_10_14.html

    The Assasain's Gate is a very comprehensive critique of the war. The attached is a review that gives a much better idea of what it covers than could I. Really takes your breath away. God help us.

  2. #2
    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    How much longer is the book than that review of it?

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    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanbaum
    How much longer is the book than that review of it?
    Quite a bit wiseguy.:shiner: Not the easiest reading but I got thru it pretty quickly, one of those can't put down things.

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    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    The Assassins' Gate is almost certain to stand as the most comprehensive journalistic account of the greatest foreign-policy debacle in U.S. history.
    If Gary Kamiya's lengthy and hyperbolistically styled book review is any indication, The Assassin's Gate is a fascinating read, but one to be taken with a very large grain of salt. It sounds like the book is far too academic to be a reliable guide to either the immediate or more distant future of Iraq. The Assassin's Gate (judging by this review) is like trying to drive with your eyes focused completely and uninterruptedly on your rearview mirror: This book is so caught up in every microdetail of how our invasion and occupation of Iraq came about, that there couldn't be any room left for examining the realities of the situation in Iraq as they exist today. It sounds like this book is already OBE (Obsoleted By Events) - a common problem with books: A book is written once, but political realities are rewritten every day as one faction or idea gains a little ground at the expense of another, and fluidic situations, like rivers, move in meandering and less than totally predictable directions.

    I would also suggest this web page: http://www.honestreporting.com...Scapegoating_Israel_-_Part_2.asp - a quicker read even than Kamiya's lengthy book review, let alone the full 480 pages of The Assassin's Gate.

    Anyone could decide to read The Assassin's Gate.

    As far as predicting our future vs. Iraq, however, they will probably be better served by just waiting and watching - until we're closer to seeing how this reconstructed Iraq cake is finally going to bake up.


    A footnote about the website that contains that other web page that I just referenced:
    HonestReporting was started at the initiative of the Jerusalem Fund of Aish HaTorah, and is now an independent non-profit organization (501c3) with its own board of directors.
    rinselberg has also posted recently on U.S. policy vs. Iraq under the title:
    Op/Ed: What and why we're winning in Iraq
    Last edited by rinselberg; 01-06-2006 at 11:29 PM.

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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    What a bizarre comment, rinselberg. We shouldn't study how we got here; it will serve only to confuse our vision of an ultimately unknowable future, which will unfold in time, and which, you promise, will comprise a positive outcome.

    I suspect that this position is grounded in your support of a war which is, by any retrospective analysis (you know, like those you find in books), unsupportable.

    You stand your ground and propose that the future holds something wonderful - which prediction cannot be based on anything that's acutally happened. So, we should abandon reason, and watch and wait.

    It also struck me as odd that the page which you offerred as containing some kind of alternative to the book had essentially nothing to do with its topic (it's a complaint, and not a particularly persuasive one, against a position taken by the author of the review), and predated the Iraq war by about 17 months.

    Why on Earth should anyone pay attention to such old news?

  6. #6
    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Hello shanbaum.

    I don't think that you characterized my post (above) very accurately: Maybe I will get back to that later. But about that other web page that I brought up: I think it provides some useful assessment of Gary Kimiya, who wrote the lengthy book review that chm2023 posted (above). That assessment, I think, is revealing, regardless of whether it came before this latest book review from Kimiya, or afterwards. I would say that Gary Kimiya has a tendency towards hyperbole and oversimplification, and seems to be magnifying the significance of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: Compare what Kimiya said on that "HonestReporting" web page to what some of the other commentators had to say on that same web page. Or perhaps Gary Kimiya is just transparently revealing to us what I suspect are some of the shortcomings of this book that he reviews: The Assassin's Gate.
    Last edited by rinselberg; 01-06-2006 at 10:57 PM.

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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg
    Hello shanbaum.

    I don't think that you characterized my post (above) accurately. Maybe I will get back to that later.

    But about that other web page that I brought up: I think it provides some useful assessment of Gary Kimiya, who wrote the lengthy book review that chm2023 posted (above). That assessment, I think, is revealing, regardless of whether it came before this latest book review from Kimiya, or afterwards. I would say that Gary Kimiya has a tendency towards hyperbole and oversimplification, and seems to be magnifying the relevance of the Israel-Palestinian situation, as it relates to the larger picture of US foreign policy and our relations with the larger Middle East and also vs. radical Islamic terrorists like OBL. Or perhaps Gary Kimiya is just transparently revealing to us what I suspect are some of the shortcomings of this book that he reviews: The Assassin's Gate.
    So, by looking into some apsects of Kamiya's past, you have gleaned something that lets you better understand what he's saying presently, and perhaps, what he might say in the future.

    I wonder if that sort of activity (i.e., studying the past in order to better understand the present, and possibly predict the future) might translate well into other kinds of analysis? Like, maybe, I dunno, foreign policy?

  8. #8
    Master OptiBoarder spartus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanbaum
    So, by looking into some apsects of Kamiya's past, you have gleaned something that lets you better understand what he's saying presently, and perhaps, what he might say in the future.

    I wonder if that sort of activity (i.e., studying the past in order to better understand the present, and possibly predict the future) might translate well into other kinds of analysis? Like, maybe, I dunno, foreign policy?
    No, no, no. You must only use deductive reasoning if it proves your predetermined conclusion.

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    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Well this is but one of many reviews of the book. I don't think the view of someone who is troubled by the views of this reviewer on other subjects is particularly germane, but hey, that's me.

    What is interesting is that the author (of the book, not the review...yikes....)supported the war; his investigation into the motives and gross miscalculations and rampant incompetence on the implementation side is something every citizen needs to read.

    I am amused by the notion that the book is "too academic" to be useful. So in line with the current administration's denigration of "book learnin'". (This is how you wind up pushing intelligent design into public school cirricula--why ask those snooty scientists about science when we can ask Jerry Falwell and Sean Hannity?? We don't need no stinkin' education....) The older I get the more I understand the old saw "Ignorance is bliss".

  10. #10
    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    OpEd on Iraq: Cutting to the chase

    The Unknown: As we know, there are known knowns - there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns: That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know.
    U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.


    As a measure of esteem for our (presently absent?) friend Jo, I lifted that from one of her posts back in 2004. She attibuted that to a DoD press brief of February 12, 2002. I tried to confirm that exact setting and date, but he has said that (in more or less the same words) on a number of occasions, so I'll take Jo's sourcing on it as "good enough".

    I also recommend The Poetry of D.H. Rumsfeld.


    (slate.com)


    Now, about that chase I was cutting to ...

    Quote Originally Posted by chm2023
    Well, this is but one of many reviews of the book. I don't think the view of someone who is troubled by the views of this reviewer on other subjects is particularly germane, but hey, that's me. What's interesting is that the author (of the book; not the book review) supported the war; his investigation into the motives, gross miscalculations and rampant incompetence on the implementation side is something every citizen needs to read.

    I am amused by the notion that the book is "too academic" to be useful. So in line with the current administration's denigration of "book learnin'". This is how you wind up pushing Intelligent Design [vs. Evolution] into the public schools curriculum - why ask those snooty scientists about science, when we can ask Jerry Falwell and Sean Hannity? "We don't need no stinkin' education ..." The older I get, the more I understand the old saw "Ignorance is bliss".
    Despite the horrendous and daily violence that has beset the nation of Iraq in the wake of OIF (Operation Iraqi Freedom), there are now some 16 million or so adult Iraqis as of this posting. Leaving aside the relative few (IMO) who are committed to violence as a way of frustrating the constitutional processes that are underway of forming a new, permanent national government, they are the only ones who can (collectively) write an upbeat ending to the story that began on March 20, 2003.

    They would be the only ones, even if OIF and the associated reconstruction efforts were totally justified, perfectly conceived and flawlessly implemented.

    I think they can still do it, even respecting the far more realistic set of truths represented by George Packer's new book, The Assassins' Gate: America in Iraq.

    I wasn't really trying to discourage anyone from reading this book.

    I do think that some of the negative opinions that I've seen in this forum, about the way it's been going in Iraq, and even more importantly, how the rest of it will unfold, are - as best as I can word it - "too academic".

    Our chm2023 said (above) that this is a book that "every citizen needs to read." As an expression of an ideal, of a large and well informed citizenry, I agree: They should read this book, or another book like it, or at least have some familiarity with its contents.

    As a matter of fact (vs. the ideal), I'd be surprised if even one more poster came back to this thread to say that they had read this book.

    It's about foreign policy - and it's 480 pages.

    I did notice a much shorter and more summary review of the book by Christopher Hitchens on "Amazon.com". It was a very positive review. I simply remark this, for the moment, because I'm keen to move on.

    I think that there is a tendency by some of the posters on this forum to assess foreign policy as if it were like an elementary computer program - simple, predictable, and governed by the well known rule of "Garbage In, Garbage Out".

    I wouldn't say that there is any one poster that is like that all of the time: Just some posters, and only in some of their posts. At times, no doubt, I've posted that way, myself. After all - it's foreign policy. I doubt that there is anyone on this forum that we could commonly agree on as always making some kind of sense on foreign policy - as always making a good, mostly thoughtful post that is remarkably consistent with their previous posts - much less, any one poster that we could all agree with, on this topic.

    I keep about half an eye on a mainstream news channel (MSNBC) every few days or so. Often I'm prompted to check the latest news by a new post that I think is going a "wrong way". Despite the continuing violence, which I am well aware has just picked up again, after a few mostly quiet weeks following the election, I still think that Iraq is going to look a lot better to many of us by years end. More credible government, more stability, more oil production, less violence and probably quite a few less American (and other non-Iraqi) soldiers at risk over there.

    Look back at the end of 2006 and laugh at me if I'm badly mistaken.

    And if I'm not an active OptiBoard member after the passing of another year, look back and laugh at my old posts.

    How's that?
    Last edited by rinselberg; 06-05-2006 at 08:39 PM.

    Are you reading more posts and enjoying it less? Make RadioFreeRinsel your next Internet port of call ...

  11. #11
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg
    Leaving aside the relative few (IMO) who are committed to violence as a way of frustrating the constitutional processes that are underway of forming a new, permanent national government, they are the only ones who can (collectively) write an upbeat ending to the story that began on March 20, 2003.

    They would be the only ones, even if OIF and the associated reconstruction efforts were totally justified, perfectly conceived and flawlessly implemented.
    Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If the US preemptively invades another country, the US is responsible for putting Humpty Dumpty back together again. The idea that we tried our best (which we didn't but that's another story) but now it's up to the Iraqis illustrates the shockingly poor thinking behind this whole mess: even assuming a full blown democracy was a likely outcome, there were at least two equally likely (I would argue more likely) outcomes: civil war and dissolution of Iraq as a sovereign nation with all the negative fallout of that, or a radical Islamic government closely aligned with the Iranians. It is becoming more and more obvious that the administration didn't even consider these outcomes--think about that for a minute.

    This isn't a foreign policy, this is wishful thinking. What's particularly disconcerting are reports that Bush feels this whole thing is his calling from God--that God meant for him to be the POTUS at this point in history. Well I hate to speak ill of the divine, but wasn't this a bad call!!!

    As for some posters, perhaps me?, viewing foreign policy like a computer program with predictable results, which I take you would look at as naive--how would you describe the idea that we would march into Iraq, depose Saddam and presto-chango, a flowering of democracy in the Middle East? Naive is one of the nicer descriptions I can come up with.
    Last edited by chm2023; 01-10-2006 at 12:20 PM.

  12. #12
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    The Unknown: As we know, there are known knowns - there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns: That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know.
    U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

    And then there are things that are likely and things that are unlikely. Being greeted as liberators was not very likely.
    ...Just ask me...

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