where have we got to?

[QDO1]

Blimey

We have consumers queriing thier PD, the calibration of a pupilometer etc, and measuring it themselves (in one thread)

We have consumers going through the small minutae of trivex vs poly in another

We have a FT28 Vs PAL theme going on permanantly between profesionals in nemerous threads

And we dont argue about AR (X) Vs AR (Y) or the relative technologies, we argue about if AR should be used at all

We have people proporting to be "opticians" asking very basic questions about progressives, transitions and aspherics. I understand this is a place to learn, but the (lack of) depth exhibited by those allready serving patients is breathtaking

I look at these threads and am baffled about what happened to our industry, and where we went wrong. Optics is basically a science, and Im finding it increasingly difficult to find out where I fit in an industry that doesnt value the skill set within it, whilst getting pushed around by consumers on the basics (the bit we are supposed to have down to a fine art - like measuring a pd, or knowing about ABBE value)

The questions we are asked by consumers are alarming. There ought ont be the need for consumers to be questioning things like ABBE, index, progression length, PAL availability, PD measurement etc - we bloody well ought to be doing that properly as an industry in the first place

Rant over

[Optical_1]

So true.

Blimey

We have consumers queriing thier PD, the calibration of a pupilometer etc, and measuring it themselves (in one thread)

We have consumers going through the small minutae of trivex vs poly in another

We have a FT28 Vs PAL theme going on permanantly between profesionals in nemerous threads

And we dont argue about AR (X) Vs AR (Y) or the relative technologies, we argue about if AR should be used at all

We have people proporting to be "opticians" asking very basic questions about progressives, transitions and aspherics. I understand this is a place to learn, but the (lack of) depth exhibited by those allready serving patients is breathtaking

I look at these threads and am baffled about what happened to our industry, and where we went wrong. Optics is basically a science, and Im finding it increasingly difficult to find out where I fit in an industry that doesnt value the skill set within it, whilst getting pushed around by consumers on the basics (the bit we are supposed to have down to a fine art - like measuring a pd, or knowing about ABBE value)

The questions we are asked by consumers are alarming. There ought ont be the need for consumers to be questioning things like ABBE, index, progression length, PAL availability, PD measurement etc - we bloody well ought to be doing that properly as an industry in the first place

Rant over

[GOS_Queen]

I look at these threads and am baffled about what happened to our industry, and where we went wrong. Optics is basically a science, and Im finding it increasingly difficult to find out where I fit in an industry that doesnt value the skill set within it, whilst getting pushed around by consumers on the basics (the bit we are supposed to have down to a fine art - like measuring a pd, or knowing about ABBE value)


:cheers:

I applaud your post.

In my opinion, I would rather we did not have consumers coming here asking for advice. A while ago, I suggested that we have some "read only" articles for the consumers that come here. It gets very weary reading post after post of consumers questioning every thing their optician has said to them.

This is why I am looking to exit the industry. Frankly, after 17 years in this industry, I am frustrated at the lack of professional standards for opticians. I see a very fragmented industry. If I knew "then" what I know now, I would have stayed in the dental field. :(

Karen

[QDO1]

In my opinion, I would rather we did not have consumers coming here asking for advice. A while ago, I suggested that we have some "read only" articles for the consumers that come here. It gets very weary reading post after post of consumers questioning every thing their optician has said to them.

This is why I am looking to exit the industry. Frankly, after 17 years in this industry, I am frustrated at the lack of professional standards for opticians. I see a very fragmented industry. If I knew "then" what I know now, I would have stayed in the dental field. :(

Karen

Do you think that "consumers asking the questions" is a litmus of how standards have slipped, or, have consumers on the whole become more savy (and is that because they have had to do because standards have slipped)

[Optical_1]

I think it's a combination of Opticians not knowing how to do their job, and of consumers who think they know everything....(especially engineers). But I think the most picky consumers were made that way by previous bad experiances with chain store opticians who think that featherwates is an actual lens material.

[chm2023]

Suggest you take a minute to look at the world outside the optical industry. Consumers' behavior patterns are changing, for better or worse. People are better able to research just about anything with the www, and as a general statement are less inclined to take the advice of "experts". There's a huge trend towards product and service personalization as well--you see this in autos, investments, communications. Naturally this all affects the optical biz. Why wouldn't/shouldn't it?

Not to get on my soapbox, but IMO the optician who sees himself only as a scientist is in the same boat as the OD who sees himself only as a physician. They both need to see themselves as retailers as well if they want to thrive.

[Optical_1]

You make a great point, but I think that being an informed consumer is one thing, but when the patient starts questioning fitting hieghts or pd's it's a symptom of having already been burned by an incompetent optician. Maybe its a combination of both.
[QUOTE=chm2023]Suggest you take a minute to look at the world outside the optical industry. Consumers' behavior patterns are changing, for better or worse. People are better able to research just about anything with the www, and as a general statement are less inclined to take the advice of "experts". There's a huge trend towards product and service personalization as well--you see this in autos, investments, communications. Naturally this all affects the optical biz. Why wouldn't/shouldn't it?

[shellrob]

You're all exactly right and it's so frustrating. The more and more comsumers come here and ask question after question, the more I DON"T want to give them the answer because it's never good enough anyway or they get an additude if you don't say what they want to hear.

[drk]

Suggest you take a minute to look at the world outside the optical industry. Consumers' behavior patterns are changing, for better or worse. People are better able to research just about anything with the www, and as a general statement are less inclined to take the advice of "experts". There's a huge trend towards product and service personalization as well--you see this in autos, investments, communications. Naturally this all affects the optical biz. Why wouldn't/shouldn't it?

I agree with this. It's the information age, and it is challenging, is it not? It challenges us to know our stuff, and be able to present it in a way that reassures patients that they are being treated by a competent professional. It's also a testimony to the success of Optiboard's reach: this board has radically changed in the very short time I've been posting. It's now about 33% non-professionals, I'd say!

As long as all this information doesn't lead to circumvention of professional care, I say we should embrace it and adjust to it for the betterment of the community we serve. Let's point out the lens manufacturers' websites, even frame companies. Let's have the intelligent discussions, if they arise.

I don't see this, necessarily, as an indictment of optical professionalism, (although many posts are prefaced with anecdotes) but a bad experience may be only a motivating factor for these consumers. If there is any indictment here, I think it would belong to those who have a closed, authoritarian style, who push consumers to a "research for ammunition" mode. If we're communicative and caring, not many will want to bother with the research.

QDO1 asks: "Im finding it increasingly difficult to find out where I fit in an industry that...". I think I know where you fit in: leading the profession.

[roxysmom]

AS a consumer-I appreciate the time that everybody has taken to answer my questions. I recently have bought a pair of glasses with a progressive lens. Since purchasing and paying nearly $500.00 for the lenses alone--I have yet to be able to wear them without having pain-first in the right eye, and now after two redos-in the left eye. At this point, I can see perfectly out of the right eye if I cover my left eye-but in the left eye-I cannot see clearly at all-everything is blurry-and I have pain in my left eye. I am told that it is because the left lens is set to far in nasally by 3mm. Prior to that in the first pair the PD was measured binocularly(by a chain comany who insisted they do not need to do monocular PD's.) Then in the second pair-done by an independant optician-the right optical center was off by 3 or 4 mm. So now it seems to be an issue with the lab, as the left eye is wrong now.
I am not trying to be a pain in the neck to anybody-neither here at the board, nor at my optician-and I know nothing about the optical industry-but I do know that I should be able to put on my glasses, and see clearly and without pain. I really thought the issue was with me at first-thus I came to the optiboard, and asked questions, and got informative answers-and the time everybody took to answer my questions is greatly appreciated.
when I went back to my independant optician initially after having trouble the first time-they kept telling me that the glasses were made "right on" according to their specifications for me and that I just needed to get used to the glasses. After doing some research, I was able to go back in, and say-"look at this". The invisible markings appear to not be in the right places-to which they then agreed with me, and had the lenses redone. When I went in with the problems in the left eye-they immediately saw the problem and have now reordered the left lens. Had I not researched on my own-I would probably still be trying to get used to the first pair of glasses-and would be out my $500.00 with a pair of glasses I could not wear...so again-I say thank you to all of you here. This has been a very frustrating process-and I am not obsessed about my glasses the some other consumers are who have posted here.

You're all exactly right and it's so frustrating. The more and more comsumers come here and ask question after question, the more I DON"T want to give them the answer because it's never good enough anyway or they get an additude if you don't say what they want to hear.

[drk]

Does this not demonstrate the need for strict, uniform, licensure? No health care consumer should have to put up with such stuff.

If only:
1.) Opticianry were organized
2.) Opticianry were a high-enough paying profession commensurate with the importance it provides.
3.) Legislatures understood that there are some limits to "free market" considerations, and valued professionalism more.

[shellrob]

Amen!!!!!!

[QDO1]

Does this not demonstrate the need for strict, uniform, licensure? No health care consumer should have to put up with such stuff.

If only:
1.) Opticianry were organized
2.) Opticianry were a high-enough paying profession commensurate with the importance it provides.
3.) Legislatures understood that there are some limits to "free market" considerations, and valued professionalism more.

You are right, in my country, like yours the industry in the main has been de-regulated, which to be frank was a massive retrograde step. Yes products might be relativley cheaper, but real patient care and advice has slipped at an even faster rate

[Snitgirl]

I feel consumer's behavior patterns & also "Optician's" asking basic questions that should be common knowledge are because of the employeess that are being hired to do the profession of an Optician.

Here in San Diego it is not uncommon to see an OD or MD with a dispensary. Most of these offices are very quick to hire someone for a low wage and train them with very "basic" knowledge and then don't encourage them to advance. I should know, I was one of them 20 years ago, I will be turning 36 years of age. <--During this time, I have seen a dramatic change in this industry when it comes to hiring and it's quite disturbing.

If we could get some laws changed here in California maybe that would make a difference. Need to make the requirements to dispense a little harder than the mickey mouse exam and also one should not dispense without a license regardless if they work for an OD or MD.

Just my 2 cents... back to work I go..


[QUOTE=Optical_1]You make a great point, but I think that being an informed consumer is one thing, but when the patient starts questioning fitting hieghts or pd's it's a symptom of having already been burned by an incompetent optician. Maybe its a combination of both.

Suggest you take a minute to look at the world outside the optical industry. Consumers' behavior patterns are changing, for better or worse. People are better able to research just about anything with the www, and as a general statement are less inclined to take the advice of "experts". There's a huge trend towards product and service personalization as well--you see this in autos, investments, communications. Naturally this all affects the optical biz. Why wouldn't/shouldn't it?

[rsandr]

You are right, in my country, like yours the industry in the main has been de-regulated, which to be frank was a massive retrograde step. Yes products might be relativley cheaper, but real patient care and advice has slipped at an even faster rate

Indeed, glasses are sold with a 'want fries with that?' attitude.
It depresses me, I trained for years to be a DO then ended up in a Specsavers fielding problems while everyone else spent their days trading up with hardcoats and aspherics.
Thats why i'm back in a lab.

[ziggy]

Does this not demonstrate the need for strict, uniform, licensure? No health care consumer should have to put up with such stuff.

If only:
1.) Opticianry were organized
2.) Opticianry were a high-enough paying profession commensurate with the importance it provides.
3.) Legislatures understood that there are some limits to "free market" considerations, and valued professionalism more.

If more OD's thought that way insted of feeling as though they were in compatition with opticians it would be a great world!

BTW great thread QDO1, well said Thanks!!

[SpecialT]

I say that we only have ourselves to blame (O.D.s). We don't train properly. Many opticians are hired by us and if they aren't explained the extra details that they didn't pick up in school who's fault is it? I get more concerned about the doc down the street that doesn't take the time to answer patient questions properly. I am not trying to suck up exam time nor am I trying to convert customers into pretend doctors but the industry is what we make it. If we let people fend for themselves, they will do their own research and think they know everything about our profession when they are done.

My recommendation, give quality answers to patient questions and allow them to understand that they will never know as much as you about our industry. Make them want to take advantage of your expertize face to face.

Also, take initiative to train staff FULLY. Don't just tell them what to do, give them a reason why it is done and what should be recommended. Keep the line between retail and doctor business clear.

Sounds simple, but I don't think it is being done right. I also think that though some of us optiboarders may be at fault, its not so much us that is the source of this frustration but rather the uninvolved doc down the street.

[SpecialT]

On second thought, who cares - life is good! Nothing is ever perfect. No harm, no fowl! :)

[QDO1]

I say that we only have ourselves to blame (O.D.s). We don't train properly. Many opticians are hired by us and if they aren't explained the extra details that they didn't pick up in school who's fault is it? I get more concerned about the doc down the street that doesn't take the time to answer patient questions properly. I am not trying to suck up exam time nor am I trying to convert customers into pretend doctors but the industry is what we make it. If we let people fend for themselves, they will do their own research and think they know everything about our profession when they are done.

My recommendation, give quality answers to patient questions and allow them to understand that they will never know as much as you about our industry. Make them want to take advantage of your expertize face to face.

Also, take initiative to train staff FULLY. Don't just tell them what to do, give them a reason why it is done and what should be recommended. Keep the line between retail and doctor business clear.

Sounds simple, but I don't think it is being done right. I also think that though some of us optiboarders may be at fault, its not so much us that is the source of this frustration but rather the uninvolved doc down the street.

for sure the member of staff infront of the patient ought to know his salt, or not be infront of the patient, or be under someones wing.. The problem is that generally the last part in the chain - dispensing / glazing / fitting / post dispense care has been stripped down to "minimum wage" in the UK and similar in US / Canada. Minimum wage means minimum care, minumum knowledge and minimum forsight. Im not knocking these members of staff, it is the system that allows them to be there. There are exceptions, the odd qualified one here and there

Guess what I was told the otherday, by some 19 year old in an employement agency... "I would take off your CV the word Spectacle Maker, it sounds old fashioned, and will go against you"

[roxysmom]

Thank you!! For my $500.00 things should be right the first time, and definitely by the second time. As a NICU nurse-if I make a 0.3 ml mistake-it can be FATAL!! Granted my glasses being off 3 mm is not going to kill me-but if I can't see out of them correctly-it can affect my job...right now I don't wear them when I have to see tiny little measurements-but after paying $500.00 so I can see clearly-shouldn't I be able to see better when I am wearing them than when I'm not? actually-I am now trying to leave them on, and just close the left eye when I need to see accurately and clearly.

But-I should be able to go to my optician, pay for my glasses, put them on and see. I should not have to spend time on the internet researching something that does not interest me, and I shouldn't have to be here bugging you guys...

Does this not demonstrate the need for strict, uniform, licensure? No health care consumer should have to put up with such stuff.

If only:
1.) Opticianry were organized
2.) Opticianry were a high-enough paying profession commensurate with the importance it provides.
3.) Legislatures understood that there are some limits to "free market" considerations, and valued professionalism more.

[QDO1]

Thank you!! For my $500.00 things should be right the first time, and definitely by the second time. As a NICU nurse-if I make a 0.3 ml mistake-it can be FATAL!! Granted my glasses being off 3 mm is not going to kill me-but if I can't see out of them correctly-it can affect my job...right now I don't wear them when I have to see tiny little measurements-but after paying $500.00 so I can see clearly-shouldn't I be able to see better when I am wearing them than when I'm not? actually-I am now trying to leave them on, and just close the left eye when I need to see accurately and clearly.

But-I should be able to go to my optician, pay for my glasses, put them on and see. I should not have to spend time on the internet researching something that does not interest me, and I shouldn't have to be here bugging you guys...

I agree 100%. I did a skills exchange with the guys in a formula 1 racing team (the engineers) They worked in my lab, and I worked in thiers. they were very embarased to admit to me that the lens they cut into a frame using CNC technology (utterly different to the way we do it) was 0.0002 mm off, because they ommited to factor in the expansion coeficient of the plastic correctly... Most people in our industry would be pleased with an accuracy of 0.5mm. However standards were relaxed, and now on some prescriptions you can be much more than 0.5 mm off and pass the standard... more of the same really. The fomula 1 guys make you think what could be achieved though

[fjpod]

Do you think that "consumers asking the questions" is a litmus of how standards have slipped, or, have consumers on the whole become more savy (and is that because they have had to do because standards have slipped)

I think the standards have slipped. Most retail optical sales take place in an environment with "counterpeople" not opticians. Patients can sense this, and are probably not confident with the responses they get. It shouldn't be allowed...but there is a "dummying down" in all industries...a push to sell anything without any technical knowledge...for 99 cents, no less.

Consumers are not more knowledgable in spite of increased information on the web. Some just use the information to become belligerent. I've had patients argue with me over $10 on their disposable lenses, while they take calls on their $400 web capable cell phone, then jump into their Lexus, drive cross town to go save 10 bucks. They throw in your face that they know how little a frame and lens costs, but they know nothing of the skill required to match their prescription to appropriate materials...and they know nothing about the expenses and overhead of operating an optical practice.

Finished with my rant. Now I feel better.

[culland]

Drk,

You hit the nail right on the head with your statement. However your profession as a whole and your professional associations might not agree with you. Them along with national retail chains are the ones fighting to keep licensure and opticians unregulated in order to keep pay low and a number of other reasons. By doing this they don't realize that they are ultimately hurting the patients level of care received from these unlicensed, uncertified and untrained "opticians".

Does this not demonstrate the need for strict, uniform, licensure? No health care consumer should have to put up with such stuff.

If only:
1.) Opticianry were organized
2.) Opticianry were a high-enough paying profession commensurate with the importance it provides.
3.) Legislatures understood that there are some limits to "free market" considerations, and valued professionalism more.

[roxysmom]

They throw in your face that they know how little a frame and lens costs, but they know nothing of the skill required to match their prescription to appropriate materials...and they know nothing about the expenses and overhead of operating an optical practice.

Finished with my rant. Now I feel better.

what skill though?--If I am now on my third redo because I can't see right out of my lenses because they are not made according to the measurements taken, or the measurements are wrong, then I feel my prescription has not even mattered in this whole equation of buying glasses-especially when the prescription actually made can be not right but still be called "within tolerance". Again-I cannot make a 0.3ml mistake in my profession, and have it be called "within tolerance"; that could kill one of my patients!!
I don't mind paying the money for the lenses-but they should be right the first time. I have been dealing with this since November, am out 500.00 just for lenses-not counting the cost of the frame-and still can not see the way I should see.
It seems to me the optical industry needs tighter regulations, and then pay to have trained and skilled people who actually care about their jobs. It's no wonder insurance companies don't pay for glasses-If the industry doesn't treat making and dispensing glasses as a healthcare need-why should insurance view glasses as a healthcare need and pay for them?

[Jubilee]

cost of the frame-and still can not see the way I should see.
It seems to me the optical industry needs tighter regulations, and then pay to have trained and skilled people who actually care about their jobs. It's no wonder insurance companies don't pay for glasses-If the industry doesn't treat making and dispensing glasses as a healthcare need-why should insurance view glasses as a healthcare need and pay for them?

The please write to your legislature and share your thoughts, and experience. They won't listen to us.. they feel as if we are only out to protect our pocketbooks. They will listen consumers if enough make their concerns known.

Cassandra