Do you guys have experience with Ziess Labs?

[Cherry Optical]

The lab I work with and love just got brought out by Ziess. Of course that meens my Alize and Varilux is gone, al least though this lab. What are you guys experience with the Ziess Products?

Darryl,

This statement is exactly what I meant about providing less service to the current customer base. The gentleman asking the question is already sending less work to the lab he used to love because they can provide him with less. At the same time competition is being granted more access to clinics that did work with this lab prior to the equisition.

There is no way the newly purchased Zeiss lab's sales numbers will match the previous year if you remove all Varilux/Crizal products from their distribution. It will take a great deal of training, negotiating, and discounting to get back the lost business. It is not impossiable! I hope they can do it, but I also understand that having a limited availabilty of products MAY put a lab in a competive disadvantage.

Perhaps the days of Independents are numbered, or perhaps the days of the Independent have just begun? Your mention of the AO/BL is exactly what I keep in the back of my mind as manufacturers continue to purchase labs. Sooner or later they will have to consolidate down to large "Euro" style labs... I will do everything I can to be around when that starts happening....

Adam

[Darryl Meister]

This statement is exactly what I meant about providing less service to the current customer base. The gentleman asking the question is already sending less work to the lab he used to love because they can provide him with less.

On the contrary, he is asking about the products that are still available at the lab he still loves his laboratory because of their service. If he were only (or even mostly) concerned about the availability of a particular product, he would simply switch to one of the dozens of labs out there that can still sell it to him. Instead, he is researching into the products they still currently offer and asking whether he should expect the service (not the product lines) in the future to remain as good as it has been.

There is no way the newly purchased Zeiss lab's sales numbers will match the previous year if you remove all Varilux/Crizal products from their distribution.

I wouldn't know for certain. However, the persons in charge of that stuff have been very pleased with the ongoing success (in terms of both sales and service) of these newly acquired laboratories, and continue to put a great deal of effort into ensuring that success.

Perhaps the days of Independents are numbered, or perhaps the days of the Independent have just begun? Your mention of the AO/BL is exactly what I keep in the back of my mind as manufacturers continue to purchase labs.

This will have virtually no impact on the long-term viability of dispensing independents (e.g., the 3 O's), if that's what you mean (Chris uses the word "independent" rather loosely). As for independent laboratories, I'm sure that many will continue to thrive and others will make themselves a lot of money by selling their businesses to larger corporations -- as has been the case in just about every industry throughout the history of the US. In any event, independent laboratories are certainly not being forced out. These are not hostile take-overs, after all.

[Chris Ryser]

For that matter, the United States operated under the same paradigm well into the 1960s before the Feds finally broke up the B&L and AO lab networks.

I wonder if that will ever happen again....................probably not. What happens in the optical industry is happening in every other commercial domaine.

But there is a much nastier trend we are seeing today...........which will probably be the end of the independent optical retailer as we know it, and also in the very near future.

Already now watching the action on this forum, there are not many opticians around anymore that have the qualifications to deal with the hundreds of practical issues coming up on a daily basis.

[Darryl Meister]

which will probably be the end of the independent optical retailer as we know it, and also in the very near future

Yes, but that has nothing to do with lens manufacturers purchasing laboratories. ;)

[Cherry Optical]

On the contrary, he is asking about the products that are still available at the lab he still loves because of their service. If he were only (or even mostly) concerned about the availability of a particular product, he would simply switch to one of the dozens of labs out there that can still sell it to him. Instead, he is researching into the products they still currently offer and asking whether he should expect the service (not the product lines) in the future to remain as good as it has been.

More Product Lines Available = More Service.

Apparently you do not agree with me on this statement. I however believe that being able to get all products from one place is a great service. Take, for example, an automotive shop. Let us say that I got into an automobile accident and needed repair to the suspension, engine, and cosmetics (body) of my car. I know a number of places that would be able to handle all of this work in one stop. To me this would be consider great service compared to having to take my car to one place for the suspension another for the engine and yet another for the body work.

Let me ask you this: If this lab still sold ALL products lines would they provide more or less of a service to their account base?

Another observation: I am positive that there is not a clinic in the country that wants to do less business with more labs. Returns, remakes, and reconciling more statements from more labs is something Eyecare Professionals are not excited to do. The more work you do at one location the greater your discount as well. Having to 'chop' up their business will lead to decreased volume discounts and profitably.

Adam

[Chris Ryser]

For that matter, the United States operated under the same paradigm well into the 1960s before the Feds finally broke up the B&L and AO lab networks.

It got broken up as you quote..................but now the cartel is starting up again. This time it will probably be for a longer period of time.

[Darryl Meister]

I think we mostly disagree on your definition of "service," as well as who should ultimately take reponsibility for it.

More Product Lines Available = More Service... I however believe that being able to get all products from one place is a great service.

Not really. After all, I don't complain about poor "service" if I walk into a Sears and ask for a brand of television they don't carry or if I walk into a Burger King asking for a Big Mac. And this was certainly not the original poster's belief, either. After all, he asked about the service independent of product (since he already knew that he could no longer get a particular product.

Service is a measure of how well you perform your duties for your customer. If a laboratory simply cannot offer a particular product, they are certainly not failing to perform their duties well (which for a lab would include customer service, work quality, turn-around time, and so on). If anything, the product manufacturer is restricting service to the laboratory's customer. Now, I will concede that if a laboratory has access to a popular product and doesn't provide it to the customer in a timely manner, product availability could indeed become a "service" issue in this situation.

Let us say that I got into an automobile accident and needed repair to the suspension, engine, and cosmetics (body) of my car. I know a number of places that would be able to handle all of this work in one stop.

Those places are not going to warehouse every part for every car though. Remember that each progressive lens design requires a massive inventory requirement. Further, if they do not have access or are restricted from using a particular brand, they will simply supply you with an aftermarket part.

But, bringing this argument a little closer to home, suppose a patient walks into a dispensary and asks for a Calvin Klein frame. The dispenser isn't allowed to carry Calvin Klein, but instead carries Giorgio Armani, Neostyle, and several other designer brands (probably more than she needs). Is that dispenser providing poor customer service?

The more work you do at one location the greater your discount as well. Having to 'chop' up their business will lead to decreased volume discounts and profitably.

Again, your assumption here is that the customer must use a particular brand, which is obviously not the case. Adam, it sounds like the crux of your argument is against the Varilux Distributorship restrictions. I think it is neither true nor fair to say that a Zeiss-owned laboratory will now offer poorer service because Varilux refuses to sell lenses through them. After all, Zeiss-owned laboratories have no issues with selling Varilux lenses. ;)

If you get good "service" from your laboratory, and they can no longer offer a brand you had been using, you would simply decide whether they offer a comparable product (which may be just as good or even better) or whether you want to sacrifice the "service" you get from this laboratory for the sake of offering the same brand. And keep in mind that these laboratories generally still sell other lenses from the very same manufacturer.

If Cherry Optical stopped offering Varilux lenses, would all of your customers go somewhere else?

[Darryl Meister]

It got broken up as you quote..................but now the cartel is starting up again. This time it will probably be for a longer period of time

Although manufacturers and laboratories have been intimately involved with each other since the latter half of the 1800s, with manufacturers sometimes buying independent labs and independents sometimes buying manufacturer labs, we still have plenty of independents around to prove that the sky isn't going to be falling anytime soon for them. ;) And they are certainly in more control of their own future than any lens manufacturer.

[Cherry Optical]

I think we mostly disagree on your definition of "service," as well as who should ultimately take reponsibility for it.

Definition of service: Work done by one person or group that benefits another;

......I don't complain about poor "service" if I walk into a Sears and ask for a brand of television..........or walk into a Burger King asking for a Big Mac. And this was certainly not the original poster's belief, either. After all, he asked about the service independent of product (since he already knew that he could no longer get a particular product.

You are allowed to define service however you would like. I for one believe service is work done by one person or group that benefits another. Therefore if company A is unable to do service X, they provide less service than company B that is able to do service X. Using your examples, imagine if you would (however unhealthy it may be), a fastfood restraunt that did provided Burger King, McDonalds, Taco Bell, Wendy's, and Hardees food all on one menu. That place would provide more of a service to its customers.

Service is a measure of how well you perform your duties for your customer. If a laboratory simply cannot offer a particular product, they are certainly not failing to perform their duties well

Here you are talking about the quality of service, not the actually amount of service provided.

Now, I will concede that if a laboratory has access to a popular product and doesn't provide it to the customer in a timely manner, product availability could indeed become a "service" issue in this situation.

Would you also concede that if a laboratory did not have access to a popular product that it once did have access to it would then provide less of a service to the customer?

suppose a patient walks into a dispensary and asks for a Calvin Klein frame. The dispenser isn't allowed to carry Calvin Klein, but instead carries Giorgio Armani, Neostyle, and several other designer brands (probably more than she needs). Is that dispenser providing poor customer service?

Ahh ha! Maybe here is the problem. I am not talking at all about the quality of service or customer service, I am debating the overall amount of service they are able to provide. In this case of the patient looking for a Calvin Klein frame the dispensor is not offering poor quality service. They are however providing a service that does not match that of the demand of the patient walking in the door. It will be up to the dispenser to convince the patient of the quality/style of the GA & Neostyle frame. However, I feel this patient may have their hearts set on the CKs... therefore they may go elsewhere. However if I were that dispenser I would go out of my way to find a CK frame for the patient.... read The Go-Getter and/or The Nordstrom Way.

And Darryl... It may have been about 12 months since you have watched it, but a great example of customer service is the Santa in Mircle on 34th street. Macy's (i believe) didn't have the products so Santa told the folks where to go and get them... hmm... gets me thinking.... Maybe instead of telling these newly purchased Zeiss/Sola lab customers that they are unable to fill Varilux orders, they could tell them to send their orders to Cherry Optical? Just an idea......

not fair to say that a Zeiss-owned laboratory will now offer poorer service because

Less service, not poor service. I tried to read over everything I have posted and I don't believe I ever stated the service would be poorer in quality, just less in quantity.

If Cherry Optical stopped offering Varilux lenses, would all of your customers go somewhere else?

LoL! Let's put it this way, I would need the pockets of Zeiss/Sola or Hoya to keep us going and at the same time probably have to send a number of fine Laboratory Opticians and ABO certified Customer Service agents to the unemployment line for awhile. :angry:

Adam

[Cherry Optical]

......and independents sometimes buying manufacturer labs, we still have plenty of independents around to prove that the sky isn't going to be falling anytime soon for them. ;) And they are certainly in more control of their own future than any lens manufacturer.

Great point. This is exactly why we have hired someone (very low paying job) to control our accqusitions and mergers. We plan to send her to the Essilor National Sales Meeting in January to talk with ELOA members. Someone needs to be around to buy them up, right? LMAO.

Adam

Perhaps this thread should be moved to a different fold now?

[Darryl Meister]

You are allowed to define service however you would like. I for one believe service is work done by one person or group that benefits another....

Even by your definition, service implies some sort of effort (i.e., "work"). Having an extra product line is not "work" -- at least beyond putting the initial stocking inventory on your shelves.

I am not talking at all about the quality of service or customer service

Exactly. You are attempting to define "service" as product availability (even restricted product availability, since we are talking about a product that just isn't available to the laboratory).

imagine if you would (however unhealthy it may be), a fastfood restraunt that did provided Burger King, McDonalds, Taco Bell, Wendy's, and Hardees food all on one menu. That place would provide more of a service to its customers

Actually, there are already several chains that do this. For instance, Long John Silver's-A&W combined restaurants and Kentucky Fried Chicken-Pizza Hut-Taco Bell combined restaurants. While I don't think anyone has ever accused this approach of providing more "service" to the consumer, it certainly provides them with more menu options.

I am not talking at all about the quality of service or customer service... I tried to read over everything I have posted and I don't believe I ever stated the service would be poorer in quality, just less in quantity.

Actually, your initial statement that started this whole conversation was: 2) Quality decreases. I don't think there is anyway you can rationalize this statement strictly in terms of product availability. ;)

Would you also concede that if a laboratory did not have access to a popular product that it once did have access to it would then provide less of a service to the customer?

Of course not. That was the whole point of my thread??? Now, if the laboratory had a choice in the matter, it might be a different story. But, like I said, you can't go into Burger King complaining about poor service because they don't offer the Big Mac.

We plan to send her to the Essilor National Sales Meeting in January to talk with ELOA members.

As long as you guys aren't courting them to buy you, which would throw a wrench in Chris's whole "Evil Cartels wiping out the helpless independents" conspiracy theory. ;)

[QDO1]

the right product, good price, on time with excelent and poignant advice, and a aftersales policy that is supportative - thats a good service.

[Darryl Meister]

the right product

I think that we're struggling over what constitutes the "right" product at this point. If Adam is a Varilux distributor, I suspect that he is more or less contractually obligated by Varilux to promote the Varilux brand in lieu of other products. Consequently, he might very well see loss of the Varilux line as a reduction in "service," though his customers using other brands might see the loss of the SOLA, Armorlite, Zeiss, Hoya, or other brand as a reduction in service as defined in these terms. In any event, none of this has much to do with "quality."

[Chris Ryser]

In any event, none of this has much to do with "quality."

Comparable to your gas station. Same quality all over..................different brands...........same price...........all made in the same refinery.

[QDO1]

Comparable to your gas station. Same quality all over..................different brands...........same price...........all made in the same refinery.

Chris there is a lab manager on this forum asking pretty basic questions about prisim thinning on PPL's.. to that end, I would not say all products are alike. Presumably he is allready supplying lenses to outlets, with or without thinning, regardless of the developers laid down criteria. On that basis, It wouldnt be too hard to imagine that from prescription form to patients nose... Dispensing, surfacing, coating, glazing, setting up and checking, fitting etc. there are a number of soft areas that could cause a problem with a pair of spectacles, so your comparison is not quite right

[Cherry Optical]

As long as you guys aren't courting them to buy you, which would throw a wrench in Chris's whole "Evil Cartels wiping out the helpless independents" conspiracy theory. ;)

O no! Sooner or later they will start consoliding these small branch locations into larger (EURO) style super labs.

Am I the only one that belives the great "We are not going to change anything. Current management will remain in place." is the kiss of death? How many times have you heard that statement only to see a huge restructing within 18 months.

Darryl: My comment about quality was about the products produced, not the service provided. Just as with TRIVEX, you and I are unable to find a 100% agreement on the definition and amount of service provided. I am going to stand by my statement that being able to do more equals more service and that quality is indepedent of quantity. To clarify, just because a lab is able to supply all products does not mean they will have a high quality of service, it does however mean they provide more of a service than those unable to provide as many products.

As far as being contractuly obligated to promote Varilux, you are of course right. However that does not mean we all walk around with crooked Es on our foreheads. Products I have grown very fond of include TRIVEX, Freeform PALs, and INDO Superfin plastics all of which are non-Essilor products.

The service issue is dead to me now. I believe we have agreed to not understand what the other is trying to say.

Adam

[Darryl Meister]

I believe we have agreed to not understand what the other is trying to say.

Or at least we understand what the other is trying to say, but don't necessarily agree with it. ;) Nevertheless, it makes for some interesting conversation.

[Chris Ryser]

Dispensing, surfacing, coating, glazing, setting up and checking, fitting etc. there are a number of soft areas that could cause a problem with a pair of spectacles, so your comparison is not quite right

King, I know where you are coming from...............your point is well made and I fully agree in principle.

However on this continent..........mainly in the USA, where in more than half the states of the USA the optical retail market is not regulated.

You can be a garbage collector today and an optician tomorrow and do all the things you describe in above quote.

Therefore to a learned professional and I suppose you are one in the UK, it does not sound right, but it could very well be the case in the USA.

Under these conditions my posting could not only be the result of a dream, it could also be possible.

[Andrew Weiss]

Here's a real-world example of the dilemma Darryl and Adam are showing us:

Our office recently decided to go with trace & transfer with an outside lab rather than invest in upgrading our in-house lab. I was asked to recommend at least two labs to the owners for consideration. The final two were an independent lab and a lab recently bought by Zeiss/Sola.

Both labs were comparable in quality (accuracy, finish, etc.). Both were comparable in service and competence (well-trained, consistent staff, excellent account representatives). Both were comparable in price, and both offered us similar, steep prompt-payment discounts. Both were local enough to give good turn-around time. Both used the same tracer.

The differences? The independent lab had for its in-house AR Satis' Endura and EZ. The Zeiss/Sola lab had Teflon and Carat Advantage. The independent lab had a full lens product range, including Zeiss/Sola products (Gradal, Individual, Sola One, Spectralite, etc.), Rodenstock Life and XS, and Varilux Comfort/Panamic. The Zeiss/Sola lab had everything except Varilux.

In the end, I recommended the independent lab. Despite my misgivings about Endura EZ, I had more misgivings about the possibility of transferring those patients who wear Comforts into a Zeiss/Sola progressive. The independent lab can send lenses out for Carat Advantage and Alize. The Zeiss/Sola lab can't get Varilux, and even though I am not a big Varilux fan and do not fit new progressive patients to Comforts or Panamics as a rule, we have a fair number who are already in Comforts and that, to me, was a bigger issue.