recent grooved rimless chipping-New?

**harry888** · 11-07-2005, 08:59 PM

I've noticed in the last two years that the incidence of grooved cr-39 lenses chipping has gone way way up. Progressive, SV, FT, transitions, no difference they all seem to be chipping more.

We now do all grooved in Poly but can't understand why we never had this problem 5 or 10 years ago.

Anyone have an idea why? Is it the newer frames?

Harry

**Eye See** · 11-07-2005, 09:37 PM

Could be due to a lot more lenses are AR coated and that makes them more brittle. Also there seems to be more frames these days that do away with the plastic figure eight liner and have opted for a metal piece instead. It has absolutely no give and will chip right away. I feel trivex is the lens material of the future. It is as strong as poly but as clear as CR-39.

**For-Life** · 11-07-2005, 09:39 PM

Could be the frames. Thinner metals and less caution for flexibility.

Also, I find lenses are being surfaced with a thinner CT.

**LENNY** · 11-08-2005, 10:17 AM

quality of the frames went down and down and down......

**For-Life** · 11-08-2005, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by LENNY

quality of the frames went down and down and down......

It is funny that you say that. I find some companies frames (mostly designer brands) have dropped incredibly, but yet I have more and more frame companies come into my store with much better quality frames than several years back, and at a cheaper price.

**DoubleD** · 11-08-2005, 12:24 PM

Harry,

which lens manufacurer is used (if known)?
Over the past years, plastic resin has changed in most manufacturers for both added UV protection and higher yields manufacturing. End result has been slightly "harder resin". Of course this is mostly "educated guess".

**eromitlab** · 11-08-2005, 06:36 PM

I've noticed that in the past couple years, too. One cause could be the poorer quality of frames that seems to have flooded into the market. Another is some of the wacky shapes designers are coming up with... I've had to pull a few off the shelves because of the sharp corners and weird ways the frames are constructed. Metal retainers in the place of vinyl figure eight liner is also a usual suspect in many of the cases I've seen.

of course, the main reason for my store is the carelessness of patients who do not really value the investment that is their eyewear.

CDOT · 11-08-2005, 11:21 PM

Another insight...

I have used the auto groove features on a few different edgers, The weco 450 uses a rotatating bit; the kappa (and clone) uses a wheel like a standard groover... I have seen many, many more chipped lenses come back with the weco due to stress risers from a not so smooth groove. What does your lab use? Have they changed machinery?

**eromitlab** · 11-09-2005, 06:12 PM

My lab, as well as many of the other labs my company has in this area have Kappa edgers. My Kappa's disc is old, but it still cuts a darned clean groove in plastic and poly lenses (trivex is a different story). However, I do notice that when I do redos from other stores, the grooves on the lenses to be replaced are not very clean. I was always told to clean the groove out completely before mounting, as this can cause a split or a cracked groove, because of the uneven pressure being placed on the lens.

**Chris Ryser** · 11-12-2005, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by eromitlab

I was always told to clean the groove out completely before mounting, as this can cause a split or a cracked groove, because of the uneven pressure being placed on the lens.

If anybody has problems with splitting and cracking gooves...............he should remember or know that on the original NYLOR frames initiated by Essilor in the late 50s only glass lenses were used and they did NOT crack or split. Therefore it has to do with improper grooving.

**morinput** · 11-12-2005, 05:54 PM

I think alot of the problems stem from most of the newer frames having no plastic "figure 8" liner. Metal in a groove that is probably 1mm on both sides in anything but poly or trivex is a recipe for disaster.

**eromitlab** · 11-12-2005, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by morinput

I think alot of the problems stem from most of the newer frames having no plastic "figure 8" liner. Metal in a groove that is probably 1mm on both sides in anything but poly or trivex is a recipe for disaster.

... and lab techs pulling the filament drum-tight on the lens. I've personally seen lenses split only minutes after mounting, only to find that some monkey of a lab tech had pulled the wire too tight. I did it too a few times in my earlier days, until my training coach steered me in the right direction.

**milesdavis** · 11-12-2005, 09:56 PM

try trivex..

**Chris Ryser** · 11-13-2005, 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by morinput

I think alot of the problems stem from most of the newer frames having no plastic "figure 8" liner. Metal in a groove that is probably 1mm on both sides in anything but poly or trivex is a recipe for disaster.

A metal V groove is ok and should be no problem, however a metal liner that goes into the groove is a no no. That would be a faulty frame design and such frames should NOT be purchased and sold. If such a such a liner does not fit the goove an lens curve you will have problems.

You can not blame everything on lab technicians or lens materials.........there are also frame designs that have not been well developed for the intended purpose.

**eromitlab** · 11-13-2005, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Chris Ryser

A metal V groove is ok and should be no problem, however a metal liner that goes into the groove is a no no. That would be a faulty frame design and such frames should NOT be purchased and sold. If such a such a liner does not fit the goove an lens curve you will have problems.

You can not blame everything on lab technicians or lens materials.........there are also frame designs that have not been well developed for the intended purpose.

while I agree with you, there are many more cases where careless, improperly trained lab personnel are to blame. Working for a company that will hire a fry cook from McD's and make him a lab manager maybe 6 months to a year down the line, I see poor workmanship more often than I'd like to.

but, you're very right about bad frames... and it seems that my company likes to buy every naughty frame they can get, simply because they look "cool." Then again, how long has it been since semi-rimless frame design has actually been practical and stylish?

**Chris Ryser** · 11-14-2005, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by eromitlab

while I agree with you, there are many more cases where careless, improperly trained lab personnel are to blame. Working for a company that will hire a fry cook from McD's and make him a lab manager maybe 6 months to a year down the line, I see poor workmanship more often than I'd like to.

While being in a totally different field today than the old lab work..............I still can not understand that today's labs do not have at least one guy that has specialized knowdlewdge and training to do the more tricky operations.

It looks to me that the edging machine suppliers are selling their machines equiped with all their gimmicks with one slogan...............you do not need any qualified persons anymore, the machine will do it all automatically !

In the mid sixties when I set up a surfacing and finishing lab I received from Coburn in Muskogee, then a family business, a catalogue with a sexy blonde in shorts operating the generator................meaning you could do without qualified personel.

Coburns salesman, Bob Roberts, explained that these machine were so advanced that you could actually hire people off the street and have them make lenses. He marked the order on the inside of a match book and they delivered a full lab 2 month later.
However I learned very fast how wrong it was to believe such sales techniques and had to hire better people at much higher salaries who could provide good work and jobs.

I still believe that even a computerized machine does not have the feel in its finger tips that a seasoned lab technician can provide. So you should aply some pressure to your labs that purely rely only on the abibility of latest technique machinery and forget the human factor of expierience.

I still have an old Essilor hand groover out of the old days when Essilor's NYLOR frames were the number one selling rimless frame world wide. There is no computer to it................either a guide with a suction cup or the good operaters just did it by hand and all on glass lenses.................and funny enough there where none of the problems you are talking about.

**eromitlab** · 11-14-2005, 06:31 AM

you're so right about the computerized machinery... in my heart, I don't really like relying on machines like the kappa or SGX to do my work for me. It's great that I have these machines at my disposal, don't get me wrong, and it does save me time and allow me to produce an average of 4-7 jobs per hour when I'm by myself with no real stress. They take some of the worry out of the equation and I look at them like I look at my microwave... it's great when I need something hot in a pinch, but I'd rather heat my water on the stove. Unfortunately, it does open the doors for companies to hire non-qualified personnel, for much less money.

and I know the essilor groover, the Rainyl groover, right?? I used one a few times when I was a tech... the lab manager then brought it from the private lab he used to run. we used to use it when lenses weren't cut quite right by the kappa... ;)

I know I am well-trained... and it's a credit to the people that trained me. The work I produce is of the highest quality, if it weren't I'd be driven to figure out how to make it better. Unfortunately, I know that kind of dedication is rare in this business now, since everyone is out to make a quick buck, rather than a long-term relationship with a patient and creating return business.

Caring about the work you produce costs too much money and time now... at least that's what they think.

**For-Life** · 11-14-2005, 09:50 AM

We are actually looking to move from a Delta to a Kappa and get the groover. So I would like to hear your opinions.

The main reason why I like this auto groove is that time is becoming a problem and I know sooner or later new help will be brought in. I want it to reduce training time everytime someone new does it.

**Chris Ryser** · 11-14-2005, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by For-Life

The main reason why I like this auto groove is that time is becoming a problem and I know sooner or later new help will be brought in. I want it to reduce training time everytime someone new does it.

Whatever auto groover you get.................keep your old hand groover, if you have one, for the touchy jobs that need an a few expierienced fingers and a human brain.

**For-Life** · 11-14-2005, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Chris Ryser

Whatever auto groover you get.................keep your old hand groover, if you have one, for the touchy jobs that need an a few expierienced fingers and a human brain.

I will. Actually, the boss ended up buying the machine.

**eromitlab** · 11-14-2005, 10:21 PM

The Kappas are great machines... the groover does save time, as well as the automated pinbeveling feature. The are a little slower than most edgers I've used, but the amount of customization with jobs is great. I've got mine set up to even read frame properties I set up on surface jobs, I just scan the barcode and feed the machine. It saves a lot of time when you're busy. The macro functions are also pretty handy for the less experienced. Keep it clean and well-lubricated and it will be a workhorse for years to come.

**Chris Ryser** · 11-15-2005, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by eromitlab

The Kappas are great machines... the groover does save time, as well as the automated pinbeveling feature....................................I just scan the barcode and feed the machine. It saves a lot of time when you're busy. The macro functions are also pretty handy for the less experienced.

eromitlab, you made a good statement as per above, but I have a question referring to your last post were there seems to be a contradiction..............

Originally Posted by eromitlab

you're so right about the computerized machinery... in my heart, I don't really like relying on machines like the kappa or SGX to do my work for me.

Could there be any negative side or function to it, that you have not mentioned ?

**eromitlab** · 11-15-2005, 08:28 AM

ah, Mr. Ryser... you have just described me in one word... "contradiction." ;)

I don't like relying on these fancy machines, simply because I don't like the fact that they tempt me to forget about how to actually do things by hand. They make life easier, sure... but you can't forget how to fix a lens in case this machine goofs it up. They are not infallible... and I have seen my fair share of oopsies come out of a Kappa, and thank goodness that I could still do things the old way... or else I'd have to remake them.

the only major downside to the way they run is that if it's out of calibration, and you don't have the metal calibration gauge on hand... you're screwed. Forget grooving or pinbeveling... or drilling on the newer ones. There are some flaws in the way it's laid out internally, but that seems to be all round with edgers based on this chassis... but I only bring that up because I spent two and a half hours last night trying to fix a display cable and having to restrip the thing down about 3 times to get at the interface board, replace it and to jimmy the display cable a little, which seems to have a short in it. That means I'll be stripping it down again on Wednesday or Thursday. joy.

the water lines are an issue... if they are still making them with steel hard lines going to the sink, they are horribly prone to clogging if you don't keep your water and filter clean. The workaround is to cut them out and replace with reinforced vinyl tubing, which I did on a particularly old one.

There are tons of mechanical and technical gripes I have with the machine (and a few other G.C. machines)... but for all its flaws, it still performs better than anything I've used so far. I'd take a Kappa over anything else if given a choice.