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Last edited by QDO1; 10-28-2005 at 08:32 AM.
Spexvet it's obvious what you're getting at. It doesn't change whether the fetus is human or not.
I edited the post. Is it ok, now? My wife had a miscarriage, so I do want to be sensitive. I truly do not want to offend, but it is an important, and valid, point.Originally Posted by Chairtime
When behavior does not match rhetoric, actions speak louder than words.
Don't think he was being insensitive. It allows a woman to grieve her loss which is important to her being OK for the rest of her life. I have a friend that does post abortion grief counseling (which includes naming the baby and saying goodbye) that is helpful for the same reason.
I am involed in some pro life stuff (no suprise I am sure) and one of the presentations given shows from conception the developement of the fetus. Since almost immediately following the egg being penetrated by the sperm changes start to happen I find it hard to argue with the fact that some kind of life is going on right away. It very specifically outlines each stage of developement from 24 hours to 3 days to 1 week etc. That is empirical enough for me I guess.
Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others. -H. Jackson Brown Jr.
If the only tool you have is a hammer you will approach every problem as though it were a nail
But is it "a person" as the thread asks?
Yes, a fetus is a person. A very, very small, young person inside a mother's womb. Abortion is killing a person. Abortion is done out of ignorance and/or selfishness.
\
Don't worry I am not offended.
No, I didn't have the option to. As soon as it was confirmed, I was sent to emergency surgery. The baby died at 9 weeks gestation, but I was still carrying 4 weeks later. Infection was a primary concern, I had enough time to call my sister and I was knocked out till next morning. When I woke, I was given a lovely little folder on how to grieve and cousellors who specialize in this area.
I was informed that the methods used in this situation make it impossible to have anything to see or hold due to size, and they say a funeral wasn't recommended, and I couldn't afford it.
Looking back, I think it might have been beneficial if I did. Instead I was upset that I had nothing to hold, the only pictures were ultrasounds to confirm the location of implantation. I cried and I cried. I did name the baby, and write a letter to her, and my son even asked if he could say goodbye. He will occasionally tell me that we will see her in heaven, along with our cat that passed in Jan. Because families are forever.. and that includes babies and pets :)
Cassandra
"Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland
sends u warm thoughts
We lost a little son, too, to miscarriage. There was no doubt in anyone's mind as to whether he was a person or not. He was (and is) loved from the minute we knew he was given to us.
We'll see him again, and then be together forever.
As a dad, I'm proud to say I've already got one of my kids in heaven...now I've got to keep helping the other two!
(P.S. QDO1, you suprise me.)
Wow, that means people are people from the womb to the tomb. What a radical concept!
why do I surprise you?
Is abortion right if the mothers health is at risk?? - where should the line be drawn? Should the line be drawn?
This is almost like that chicken before the egg question. Because of the circles I move in I know people who either had their mothers advised to have an abortion and are alive and well today (and their mothers are too) and people who were advised to have abortions because their babies were at risk of deformity etc and the babies are either just fine or did have problems but the parents are glad they chose to carry to term. So obviously sometimes advising abortion is the wrong answer in those situations-had those babies been aborted it would have been for no reason.
One of the things that gets lost in these discussions over abortion, when is it a baby, no one can tell me what to do with my body etc is what happens to the woman who decided to have an abortion emotionally after the fact. We all focus on the baby (or blob of tissue depending on your opinion) and things that happen to the women like inability to concieve later, studies that show increased risk of breast cancer in women who have had abortions, depression, substance abuse and other things get left out entirely. I think women who are concerned about their rights and choices need to be better informed about what this could do to them, much less the baby. I can tell you it is tough to be a member of that club and I know lots of women who have the same issues.
Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others. -H. Jackson Brown Jr.
If the only tool you have is a hammer you will approach every problem as though it were a nail
I agree. I am friends with a woman who had an abortion due to her health. She tried carrying the baby, and spent weeks in the hospital. With three children at home wondering if mommy was going to live or die, and spending over a month trying to save both of their lives, the doctors told her that she had a 80% chance of dying trying to have this baby, and the baby had only a 10% chance of making it..if she didn't die first... The decision was made to abort.
That was 15 years ago, and she still cries when she talks about it to this day. She knows that it was important for her to be there with her husband to raise her family, but still feels like it she is to blame for the whole situation. She didn't do something right. That she might have fought the odds. She calls herself a murderer..
There are a lot of side effects that go along with abortion that most people don't think through. I worked with a group in college (psych minor), and many of these young women regret making their choice. Guilt, depression, fear, and actual physical illness and scars manefest themselves more than not. Many were failing in school, and seemed to punish themselves for their actions. These young ladies decided to abort out of fear of telling their folks, ruining the dream of finishing college and getting a career, waiting till their lives were in order, etc.. And then after going through with it, they were so depressed and distracted that they ended up skipping classes, dropping out, and failing to make those dreams come true.
I know of three ladies who are having trouble conceiving, that now wonder if the pregnancy they aborted was their only chance at having a child? Did the process scar the womb, or is it psychological? Those are issues they are having to work through now. It is bad enough when you have difficulty conceiving, but then to be wondering if your past actions caused this?
I would hate to be there...
Cassandra
"Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland
I think it depends on how you answer my first question in this thread. Is it a person or not? If it is, then it's one of your children. Would you kill one of your children to save your own life? Not me.
looks like we agree on something
I'm sorry, but this one bugs me. It's just not true.
source
In February 2003, the National Cancer Institute (NCI) convened a workshop of over 100 of the world’s leading experts who study pregnancy and breast cancer risk. Workshop participants reviewed existing population-based, clinical, and animal studies on the relationship between pregnancy and breast cancer risk, including studies of induced and spontaneous abortions. They concluded that having an abortion or miscarriage does not increase a woman’s subsequent risk of developing breast cancer. A summary of their findings, titled Summary Report: Early Reproductive Events and Breast Cancer Workshop, can be found at http://www.cancer.gov/cancerinfo/ere-workshop-report
Breast Cancer maybe not. More neurotic breakdowns of the psych in later years, definitely.
Still no reason to kill your own children.
It does increase the chances of the unborn child dying an unnatural death... which is a bit awkward for that child, as it isnt big enough to fight for itself, or vocal enough to argue its case. Why should the right of the mother always have precidence to that of the child? The only case I can think of is where it is absoloutley certain is that both the mother and the child will die unless there is intervention - an ectopic pregnancy for example
Last edited by QDO1; 10-30-2005 at 02:52 AM.
since I've seen literature that says opposite guess we'll just have to disagree
Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others. -H. Jackson Brown Jr.
If the only tool you have is a hammer you will approach every problem as though it were a nail
If you'll read carefully what I said--try new things! You might enjoy it!--I didn't actually advocate it, I just mentioned that one of the propaganda points that's used is totally false.
Honestly. If I distorted what you said the way you distort me, I'd probably have to accuse you of wanting to kill all children. Get a grip, Rimmy.
I apologize, but I'd rather not "agree to disagree". You can do that over matters of opinion, and as it either does or doesn't cause breast cancer, it falls more into the realm of fact. So, that said, care to source your literature? Mine, I think, stands up fairly well. The National Cancer Institute seems to have it laid out clearly:
The relationship between induced and spontaneous abortion and breast cancer risk has been the subject of extensive research beginning in the late 1950s. Until the mid-1990s, the evidence was inconsistent. Findings from some studies suggested there was no increase in risk of breast cancer among women who had had an abortion, while findings from other studies suggested there was an increased risk. Most of these studies, however, were flawed in a number of ways that can lead to unreliable results. Only a small number of women were included in many of these studies, and for most, the data were collected only after breast cancer had been diagnosed, and women’s histories of miscarriage and abortion were based on their “self-report” rather than on their medical records. Since then, better-designed studies have been conducted. These newer studies examined large numbers of women, collected data before breast cancer was found, and gathered medical history information from medical records rather than simply from self-reports, thereby generating more reliable findings. The newer studies consistently showed no association between induced and spontaneous abortions and breast cancer risk.
When I get my hands on the info I will gladly post it so you and I can discuss. I meant to pick it up at the event I attended a few weeks ago and did not. But I will add this as food for thought.
" This conclusion is remarkably reminiscent of the National Cancer Institute’s (NCI) statement given on its “Cancer Facts” web page on “Abortion, Miscarriage, and Breast Cancer Risk,” carried on the NCI website since the spring of 2003.4 On this “fact sheet,” the NCI concludes that “having an abortion or miscarriage does not increase a woman’s subsequent risk of developing breast cancer.” The trouble is, to accept this conclusion, one needs to dismiss almost half a
century’s worth of data which do show a significant link between abortion and an increased risk of breast cancer. Beral et al. suggest that those previous studies “yielded misleading results,”5 and that one should trust the largest, most recent studies (i.e., those which show no ABC link). Such apparently knowledgeable pro- nouncements seem just a bit too self-assured in an age when concerns about women’s health reign supreme. "
taken from www.abortionbreastcancer.com/Brind_NCBQ.PDF
these guys lay out their side pretty clearly too.
Last edited by karen; 10-30-2005 at 03:06 PM.
Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others. -H. Jackson Brown Jr.
If the only tool you have is a hammer you will approach every problem as though it were a nail
I look forward to it. On this sort of thing, it's not so much what I think is right or wrong, but what's true and accurate. I have a problem with bad information, but I have serious issues with misinformation. :)When I get my hands on the info I will gladly post it so you and I can discuss. I meant to pick it up at the event I attended a few weeks ago and did not. But I will add this as food for thought.
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