George Bush's 2000th Murder Victim
So, we've hit the grim milestone of 2000 soldiers killed in Iraq. Bush falsely used the deaths of over 2000 innocent people in Manhattan to justify a war which has killed 2000 soldiers thus far in Iraq. As if the deaths at the WTC weren't horrible enough, there are now tens of thousands of people missing loved ones, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, fathers, mothers and friends all because of Dubya.
And who voted for him again? 'Twasn't I. Do you think it was worth it?
Please do not politicize the loss of 2000 of my brothers.
By telling the truth, finklstiltskin is trying to SAVE your brothers who are still alive. Support our troops - bring 'em home alive!Originally Posted by rbaker
You forget something: as an American, they were 2000 of my brothers and sisters, too. Do you deny that the entire war is political? Have you ever heard that pride comes before a fall? George W. Bush's cockiness and pride has led to the fall of thousands of people...falls to their deaths.
Oh, and thanks, Spexvet.
Justification of OUR country's actions is realized when you look into the eyes of an individual who has lived most of their life under a dictatorship and now can experience the freedom(s) some Americans take for granted. The road there is sometimes not a pleasant one. But until you put yourself in the position to look into those eyes, keep on riding the blame train. Believe me, someday it will derail.
Rbaker: Thanks for the words. They are appreciated by your brothers.
You speak as if "OUR" "brothers" actually want to be over there! Of everyone I've spoken to who has been to Iraq or is in Iraq now, only about 10% of them actually believe in their Commander in Chief's bullsh!t "justification". The others just want to be at home with their friends and families.
While I agree with you, this thread will get you into trouble.
You're satisfied trading dead Americans for dead "others"? I'm all for helping them help themselves (give them weapons, training, etc.), I just don't want Americans to die.
as we all stupidly got iraq and ourselves into this mess, we ought to at least follow though and finish off and leave a stable country, to not do so would compound the cataloge of crapp even further
If I was king, I would have told Hussein to step down and give the country back to the Iraqi people, or we will annex the entire Rumaila oil field and give it to Kuwait as restitution for their 1991 invasion, on the condition that Kuwait offer equal political and legal rights to women (and they'll do it for the oil and land). Without the flow of oil money Saddam and the Bath party would lose their ability to project force beyond their borders, with the worlds third largest oil reserves left in friendlier and more rational hands. The resulting civil war, battle for power, and famine might kill less Iraqis than the 300,000 Iraqis lost in the Iraqi-Iran war.
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman
Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.
Everyone wants to be home with their family and friends. I don't think in todays world any military action would be deemed other than political. Trade dead American's for others? I don't want to see anyone dead. Today's society is much more touchy feely than 50 years ago. And death of anykind is not acceptable for any reason. I accept and respect everyone's opinion on this thread as their own.
And Jacqui your correct, this thread is trouble.
I never said I agreed with the FXXXXXX war, I just comented that now we collecivly have made a mess, we ought to sort the mess out
I agree, as you can see from my tagline, below. But Americans least of all.
Jacqui's middle name is trouble.;) She's not scared of nothin'!
QD01,
My post wasn't directed towards you, I was just trying to change the nature of the discussion away from calling people murders to something slightly less inflammatory.
In my opinion we've been bled enough, and it's time for the Iraqi people to fight there own war for freedom. If they don't succeed then it's the failure of the Iraqi people, not our failure.as we all stupidly got iraq and ourselves into this mess, we ought to at least follow though and finish off and leave a stable country, to not do so would compound the cataloge of crapp even further
Regards,
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman
Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.
Thank you, Spexie ;)
finkl, just curious-what should we have done instead?
I am sure our men and women soldiers want to come home, but when you join the military and sign up to defend your country you know it is possible to be sent to war and perhaps lose your life. Am I sad that we have lost so many, absolutely. Am I proud to live in a country where men and women volunteer for such danger, no question. I find myself curious if you have ever served in the military yourself. I agree that it is a big fat mess and seems like an exercise in futility but we can't just cut and run and leave all those people hanging...
Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others. -H. Jackson Brown Jr.
If the only tool you have is a hammer you will approach every problem as though it were a nail
What "we" should have done instead? You mean what Bush should have done instead? He shouldn't have lied to his people and the rest of the world by invading another country on false pretenses (WTC attacks, WMD's). "We" should have checked "our" so-called "intelligence" and then checked it again before invading. No country has the right or responsibility to invade a sovereign country. (I personally believe political assassination would have been a much better choice than full-scale invasion, although I do not know how feasible that would have been.)
Supposedly, the goal of the invasion was to remove Saddam Hussein from power. That was accomplished two years ago, even before his capture in 2003 (did I mention that it happened two years ago). We have remained in Iraq, where we do not belong, drawing terrorists in like a big, stinkin' pile of sh!t draws flies...and it is a big, stinkin' pile of sh!t that we're in over there. We are supposedly still there to protect the Iraqi people from the terrorists, which is odd because we are the reason the terrorists are killing innocent people!
As long as we are there, the Iraqis themselves have every right to fight us. I mean, if a foreign country invaded the United States, you can be certain that we'd be 100% justified in fighting them, right?
As for the foreign insurgents, the above statement does not apply. I believe they have as little right to be there as we do. But they are there to attack us and the puppet government of Iraq, and they surely would not be there if we hadn't invaded in the first place.
Although my father was in the U.S. Air Force for 20 years, I have not served in the military, and would never do so. Growing-up, I often thought about it, but always decided against it. Thank heavens I did not join. When one of my best friends returned from Bosnia, he said, "I watch TV shows about prison a lot because it p!sses me off that convicted criminals get treated so much better than I did in the Army." He was in the 10th Mountain Division, I believe. With treatment like that, it's a surprise that anyone ever reenlists.
Keep in mind that we are talking about the Cradle of Civilization here. Iraq (once Babylon) has probably been populated longer than any other country or area in the world. It has been through many wars and seen many disasters over the thousands of years of its existence. I understand that we are a big, bad superpower, but it's not like everyone in Iraq would die if we just 'got ghost' and left.
I tell you what would happen if we decided to leave tomorrow, though: thousands upon thousands of families would be ecstatic to have their fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends and family members back home, safe and sound. Our economy would probably improve in many ways as well. There would be thousands more people spending money over here, and we wouldn't be sinking untold billions into a false cause.
All around, the best idea is to BRING THEM HOME!!! Can I get an "Amen?"
Fink
This past April I attended my old Marine Corps squadron reunion at the MCAF New River where I had the opportunity to spend four days with my recently returned brothers. I heard nothing but support for the Commander In Chief and our policy of bringing democracy to the people of both Afghanistan and Iraq. These fine young men have freely chosen to take an active roll by serving their country and CIC.
I am also active in VFW and DAV and we are blessed with new members who have recently returned from duty in these troubled areas. It seems the majority of the problems that we discuss concern the interference of politicians and lawyers in tactical matters.
So, I find your statement, quoted above, difficult to believe. It certainly does not reflect my experience.
Finally, the brotherhood that I speak of is the brotherhood of the warrior and in particular of the Marine Corps. You could never measure up so I understand and forgive your ignorance. If I offend anyone, so be it.
Finkl said-What "we" should have done instead? You mean what Bush should have done instead? He shouldn't have lied to his people and the rest of the world by invading another country on false pretenses (WTC attacks, WMD's). "We" should have checked "our" so-called "intelligence" and then checked it again before invading. No country has the right or responsibility to invade a sovereign country. (I personally believe political assassination would have been a much better choice than full-scale invasion, although I do not know how feasible that would have been.)
Supposedly, the goal of the invasion was to remove Saddam Hussein from power. That was accomplished two years ago, even before his capture in 2003 (did I mention that it happened two years ago). We have remained in Iraq, where we do not belong, drawing terrorists in like a big, stinkin' pile of sh!t draws flies...and it is a big, stinkin' pile of sh!t that we're in over there. We are supposedly still there to protect the Iraqi people from the terrorists, which is odd because we are the reason the terrorists are killing innocent people!
As long as we are there, the Iraqis themselves have every right to fight us. I mean, if a foreign country invaded the United States, you can be certain that we'd be 100% justified in fighting them, right?
Karen said-it is possible that W did think therre were WMD there, he wouldn't have been the only one. They can hide and move those things if they choose to, If Saddam had nothing to hide, why all those years of not letting inspectors in.
If Iraq was full of people who weren't killing each other as well as being populated by a small group af fanatics who would love to see all Westerners dead that example of us defending our own soil if attacked would work for me but until the Reps and Dems start killing each other in the streets and using chemical weapons that analogy is too apples and oranges for me
finkl said- Although my father was in the U.S. Air Force for 20 years, I have not served in the military, and would never do so. Growing-up, I often thought about it, but always decided against it. Thank heavens I did not join. When one of my best friends returned from Bosnia, he said, "I watch TV shows about prison a lot because it p!sses me off that convicted criminals get treated so much better than I did in the Army." He was in the 10th Mountain Division, I believe. With treatment like that, it's a surprise that anyone ever reenlists.
I tell you what would happen if we decided to leave tomorrow, though: thousands upon thousands of families would be ecstatic to have their fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends and family members back home, safe and sound. Our economy would probably improve in many ways as well. There would be thousands more people spending money over here, and we wouldn't be sinking untold billions into a false cause.
All around, the best idea is to BRING THEM HOME!!! Can I get an "Amen?"
Karen said-My husband and my brother are Marines (former) My hubby was over there in Desert Storm. While the conditions were not ideal over there, being stationed in Hawaii and Japan was a bit better than prison. How does your dad feel about all this?
Sorry, I can't figure out how to quote you and respond in segments. You would think after all this time on the board I could master that
Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others. -H. Jackson Brown Jr.
If the only tool you have is a hammer you will approach every problem as though it were a nail
Bring them Home, eventually yes.
Can you get an "Amen" for your statement, NO.
Fink is a pure nut cake. He admits it right under his name. Anything he says about our President is his own little warped mind at work. If most of us thought like him we would be living under Saddam.
Go pick your nose punk and have lunch.
So we know what you think of Fink, what do you think about the issues in the thread?
I will be forever shocked and sickened at the quickness of those free-loaders to express their negitive opinion in reguards to Iraq. 2000 dead, you consider this a "milestone" while those of us who have served understand that there have been 2000+ milestones. Every death is tragic, one no more than the other. What you fail to understand is this is their job. This is what they train to do. But you will never understand, because you would never serve. Your opinion and that of all the free loaders like you is meaningless. Dont continue to be an arm chair quarterback. Get in the game and then come back and give us your commentery.
I guess this is the trouble Jacqui was speaking of:(
Paul:cheers:
I accept that the folks you met at those functions support our presence in Iraq. If a veteran did not support our presence in Iraq, s/he would be unlikely to participate in those organizations and/or functions. My own experience was with a man in our industry who sold frame display fixtures. He was an MP in the reserves and had done a tour in Iraq, as had his brother. He told me that his brother came back, and left the service, and he, himself, lost his faith in God while in Iraq. He was disgusted by our involvement in Iraq and with his experience. He returned to Iraq for a second tour (not by choice). Paul Karpowich, who worked for Eye Designs, was killed in Mosul on December 21, 2004.
Your assertion that someone "could never measure up" is baseless and arrogant. If I offend you, good!
We live in a less than perfect world and we all make mistakes. However, I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN. I had 4 uncles serve in WW2, one in the Korean War. My youngest son is a CMsgt in the Air Force and has almost 20 years in service to his beloved country. He was in the first gulf war.
His ideals are this, and I quote, " GOD first, then family, then Country. He is a true patriot as well as all the men and women he serves with. Most all the folk in our armed services are true believers in the America way. They sacrafice much and are willing to lay down their life if nessecary to keep our freedom. It is their willingness to sacrafice that allows the "fink" and others like him to have the freedom to spout off.
We have no choice, we must carry this fight to them there and not here.
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