George Bush's 2000th Murder Victim

[finklstiltskin]

Keep those personal attacks coming! It means your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. I feel sorry for those of you brainwashed by Fox News/White House PR because it seems that you can't think for yourselves.

Blind patriotism is not good, and it is not healthy. One group of people stand-out in my mind as blind patriots...have you people ever heard of the National Socialists in Germany? Maybe you know them by the more familiar name of Nazis. They were blind patriots, and they didn't seem to be bothered much when their country invaded other countries, either. And Hitler gave plenty justification for their terrorism, as well. I know, I know. I should never compare Bush to Hitler or us to Nazi Germany, but I'm far from the first person to be reminded of that.

And yes, Bill, I am a pure nutcake. I was diagnosed as Bipolar 2 years ago, and it is part of who I am, but does not affect my intelligence or common sense whatsoever. What is your Dx?

Oh, and since when does anyone in the US military do anything "freely"? You lose your freedom when you enlist.

[spartus]

If there be one principle more deeply rooted than any other in the mind of every American, it is that we should have nothing to do with conquest.
--Thomas Jefferson

[chm2023]

It's as clear as the nose on your face: Bush et al did not think thru the severity of the problems we would encounter upon deposing Saddam. You don't impose democracy with the business end of an M16. Iraq was held together by a dictator; given a choice, will they choose to unite as a democratic nation? No--read the new Constitution, it is analogous to our Articles of Confederation with regional autonomy trumping nation interests at each turn. It doesn't take ESP to see where this lead.

One of the arguments I keep hearing from pro-war crowd is that we can withdraw once we "train" enough Iraqis to provide protection. (I will point out this is a movable feast, never appears to draw any closer). Question: who is "training" the insurgents? They certainly seem to have been able to jump into the fray from the get-go. What does this suggest?

My prediction is Bush will "declare victory"--doesn't this sound familiar--and start withdrawing troops shortly before the midterm elections.

As to the military supporting the Iraq policy, let me give you something to chew on: one of the hardest crimes to successfully prosecute is art forgery. Why? People who invest a great deal into something don't want to hear they made a bad decision. Better, and less painful, to turn a blind eye.

[spartus]

Heh. "Peace with honor."

If history's truly going to repeat itself, it'll be his replacement doing the withdrawing.

[QDO1]

Iraqi civilians killed so far (estimate)Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq

Min
Max
26732
30098


Plus the Allied forces body count + Iraqi military body count = total lives lost

Is one life worth more than another?

[finklstiltskin]

As to the military supporting the Iraq policy, let me give you something to chew on: one of the hardest crimes to successfully prosecute is art forgery. Why? People who invest a great deal into something don't want to hear they made a bad decision. Better, and less painful, to turn a blind eye.

Awesome analogy. I doubt our conservative friends will get it, though.

[Bill West]

Prov 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

[drk]

Fink, bro.

You are naiive. No problem, you will get older and wiser.

Nonetheless, what's distasteful is your use of words like "murder", and your disrespect for authority, which, no doubt, doesn't end with (or begin with) the president.

Please use a more measured tone, and try to give a modicum of respect for the institutions of this country that you are a citizen of. Work within the system, and act like a grown up.

Unfortunately, you have some poor role models, what with the super-liberal media, websites, nutcases, "documentaries", etc. That's not the way it used to be, bro, when you were five years old.

I sure didn't like Bill Clinton, but I didn't post that he was a "this" or "that", or go off on any wacko tangents, like Hillary and Bill had Ron Brown killed, or whatever.

No one is going to get anything done in this country with the incendiary rhetoric.

Are you interested in getting something done, or just "enjoying" the rush of "speaking out"?

[finklstiltskin]

Prov 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

You would quote one of the few times the Bible directly contradicts itself. Maybe you should have read the verse after that:

Answer a fool as his folly, that he not be wise in his own eyes. (Proverbs 26:5)

And maybe this one will strike you:

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, `You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, `You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. (Matthew 5:22)

I love it when warmongers start throwing around religion. It reminds me of the Crusades...again!

[finklstiltskin]

Fink, bro.

You are naiive. No problem, you will get older and wiser.

Naive? Moi? Very funny.

Nonetheless, what's distasteful is your use of words like "murder", and your disrespect for authority, which, no doubt, doesn't end with (or begin with) the president.

So, killing a human being with a gun or a bomb is not murder? Then, what is? And you're right. I have absolutely no respect for George W. Bush. A person does not deserve my respect simply because some uninformed people gave him the title of president. I'm sure you had little respect for Clinton, or am I being naive again?

Please use a more measured tone, and try to give a modicum of respect for the institutions of this country that you are a citizen of. Work within the system, and act like a grown up.

A measured tone? Maybe you should deliver this line to the people who are attacking me personally instead of addressing the subject at hand. Oh, wait...you'tre one of them, too. Take your own advice, Doc. Oh, and why should I let someone tell me to grow-up when they keep calling me "bro" like some blond-headed surfer dude?

Unfortunately, you have some poor role models, what with the super-liberal media, websites, nutcases, "documentaries", etc. That's not the way it used to be, bro, when you were five years old.

I watch very little TV and very rarely listen to the radio. This "liberal media" crap I keep hearing about is a big joke. The cable news that I do watch most is Fox News, actually. You know, the mouthpiece of the White House?

I sure didn't like Bill Clinton, but I didn't post that he was a "this" or "that", or go off on any wacko tangents, like Hillary and Bill had Ron Brown killed, or whatever.

I don't seem to get your point, but then again, I am a fool, according to Bill West. And I'm sure he'd know a fool when he saw one.

No one is going to get anything done in this country with the incendiary rhetoric.

Are you interested in getting something done, or just "enjoying" the rush of "speaking out"?

I get no rush when I speak out. I have been speaking out for 29 years now, so I've built up a tolerance to it, I guess.

[mrmac]

I have talked to over a dozen soldiers, both men and women, that have retuned.ALL said it was worth doing and would be proud to go back if needed.

[QDO1]

So no one answered my question... shame on you

Is one life worth more than another?

A lot of people in the the US profess to be conservative christian and ignore the following:

• Love thy brother, bla bla bla
• Do not murder - or whatever the commandments say

but you are happy to wage a sloppy war

[OptiJim]

but you are happy to wage a sloppy war

Is any war not sloppy?

[Chairtime]

Do you think it was worth it?

This is a tough one. Considering the numbers of dead that you stated, and what has been accomplished, I don't think it has been worth it really.

On the other hand, I do believe there are many things worth dying for, and obviously the troops agree. Giving a life and taking a life are two very different things. However, I don't necessarily think that Bush should just call the whole thing off. I agree with the notion that we owe it to the dead to finish what they died for.

[Spexvet]

...I do believe there are many things worth dying for,...

But what is worth killing for?

[finklstiltskin]

I agree with the notion that we owe it to the dead to finish what they died for.

Although I feel you have made an excellent point here, I'd hate for another 1000 Americans to die over a war based on false information (or blatant lies). Actually, I'd hate for even ONE more American, Iraqi, Briton, or ANYONE to die over Bush's little vendetta.

[Chairtime]

But what is worth killing for?

Not much, if anything.

[ziggy]

So no one answered my question... shame on you

Is one life worth more than another?

YES, IN SOME INSTANCE

[QDO1]

YES, IN SOME INSTANCE

for example?... remembering that inocent iraqis have been killed in a proportion of at least 10:1

[Chairtime]

Is one life worth more than another?

No.

[ziggy]

EXAMPLE: my kids, their lives are worth more than other lives. Chairtime, got kids?

QDO1,off subject, you sign your post as "KING" is that your sirname?

[finklstiltskin]

EXAMPLE: my kids, their lives are worth more than other lives.

So, are your kids worth killing someone else's kids? Because whoever you kill for your children are the children of someone else.

Don't get me wrong. I have a son and daughter and would not hesitate to kill to protect them. I just like to argue. :D

[Chairtime]

This is a good one. I do have kids. Are their lives worth more than other lives? No. Would I kill to save them? Yes, even though I believe it is wrong.

[rbaker]

So no one answered my question... shame on you

Is one life worth more than another?

A lot of people in the the US profess to be conservative christian and ignore the following:

• Love thy brother, bla bla bla
• Do not murder - or whatever the commandments say

but you are happy to wage a sloppy war

Yes, one life may be worth more than another. Society makes this decision every day in the courts. Women make this decision every day in Planned Parenthood clinics. Occasionally history demands the decision to be made by governments.

Ask you elders if the lives of the English people were worth more than the life of Hitler and the German military. Ask this of the parents and wives of the American warfighters who went to Europe and were maimed and killed to preserve the freedom that you enjoy today. I want you to ask the survivors of the Holocaust whether one life is worth more than another.

But for the grace of God and those willing to put their lives on the line you would probably be toasting a rat on a stick in a concentration camp in Herefordshire today.

[OPTIDONN]

No matter what party we may belong to, if any, I think that we all can agree that war sucks. The idea of stopping war is noble and should never be discouraged even if the war is deemed appropriate. And yes death is death wether it is done through execution for crime, murder for fun or through international conflict, the result is the same. We do give differant names to differant types of death to help ease our concious. We don't want to think of our selves as no differant than Nazi's that were killed in WWII. We don't want to think of them as murder victims. I do feel that at times war cannot be avoided but to try and call Bush a murderer and turn a scornfull eye towards the government because they do not hold your beliefs does nothing to further your cause. I am very Republican and will openly admit it. I don't see the Demecrats as the enemy, there have been many great Democrats and no doubt there will be many more. I did not agree with Clinton on almost anything but I knew that to always undermine him and the government would only create more hostility. Instead I realized that I may not like him but I love America, he was the elected head and was therefore my American President and as such I felt that support should be given to that office. I just don't like people on both sides shouting as loud as they can creating a verbal conflict. Rapist, drug user, murderer, nazi, communist, etc. etc. are names that most american presidents have been called. All it does is make the person saying it look like a school child trying to vent thier frsutration the only way they know how and thats through verbal conflict, which is often the first step towards physical violence.