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Thread: what AR are suitable for these type of lenses made with CR39 material

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    what AR are suitable for these type of lenses made with CR39 material

    Assuming that different AR is suitable for different lens, what AR is best for
    - Suitable AR for Shamir Office (CR39)

    - Suitable AR forShamir Piccolo (CR39)

    - Suitable AR forShamir Autograph (CR39)

    - I believe that Crizel Alize or Crizal is recommended for all Varilux (Panamic, Ellipse, Comfort, Readable), am I right?

    - Would there be any difference in benefit, i.e pros and cons, between Shamir Office and Vvarilux Readable for a low Rx (progressive) for computer pair?

    - It seems that there is no Varilux Panamic equivalwent in Shamir. is that the case?

    - What in varilux would be equivalent to Shamir Autograph?

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    Bad address email on file jbiggs114's Avatar
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    Any A/R can be applied to Shamir if the manufacter of the a/r allows it. The a/r that my lab uses is called NVISION, NVISION PLUS. It has a life warranty (meaning life of prescription) and the cost is less than Crizal. It has been around for about a year now and the company that applies it is located in optical village, columbus. ohio. The name of the company is NEXUS. I know of numerous labs in the south using this a/r with success.
    Also Zeiss can be applied to Shamir products. Zeiss Carat Advantage I hear is awesome.

    Shamir office is free of distortion above the 180 line. The cost is also less than the Varilux Readable.

    I would compare the Panamic to the Piccolo. Both have low fitting hts. The Panamic seems to have mre distortion pushed above the 180 line.

    Now Essilor owns the J&J lense and I have heard it can be compared to the Shamir Autograph. But like I said, I heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbiggs114
    I would compare the Panamic to the Piccolo. Both have low fitting hts. The Panamic seems to have mre distortion pushed above the 180 line.

    Now Essilor owns the J&J lense and I have heard it can be compared to the Shamir Autograph. But like I said, I heard.
    The Ellipse is probably closer to the Piccolo and Varilux Ipseo would be in the same genre as the Autograph. I have been pleasantly suprised with the Ellipse and mid-range vision and have had extremely positive results from the Ipseo. One thing to consider regarding the AR coating is warranty. When a supplier puts it's own AR coating on their own lens the usual warranty is 2 years, oftn when a third party AR is applied the warranty is 1 year. Best to check that out.
    "It's not impossible. I used to bull's-eye womp rats in my T-16 back home."


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    Thanks for the info.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbiggs114
    I would compare the Panamic to the Piccolo. Both have low fitting hts. The Panamic seems to have mre distortion pushed above the 180 line.
    Does that means piccolo is better than panamic? What's fitting height requirement on piccolo? Panamic is 18mm.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbiggs114
    Now Essilor owns the J&J lense and I have heard it can be compared to the Shamir Autograph. But like I said, I heard.
    The guy in SF lab said that autograph is better than piccolo. I don't know in what ways?

    Is zeiss carat advantage good for Shamir office, is it also good for Shamir Piccolo too? The guy in SF said $120 for Zeiss Carat. Isn't that a bit too much?

    One local place who was pushing Sola Access on me nows tells me that they can put Crizel Alize on Shamir Office. I am having a hard time trusting them since they didn't mention about different choices of lens to me in the first place.

    I just want one lab that can put anything I want (I may wnat different brand in different ones) in each of my 3 pairs eyeglasses but the one S seems to be the only one who can do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzenne
    I just want one lab that can put anything I want (I may want different brand in different ones) in each of my 3 pairs eyeglasses..
    When I said anything, I meant the lens. As far as AR is concerned, don't mean that I want an AR that is not available to that lens. I just want the best AR for that lens.

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    Shamir Piccolo can be fit at 16mm. This is the suggested fitting ht. from shamir and it is working well for all of the offices that I have using Shamir products.

    On coating I prefer Zeiss Carat Advantage. This is their latest A/R. A little pricy but worth it. Cheap a/r can cause nightmares.

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    Bad address email on file jbiggs114's Avatar
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    Go to shamirlens.com and check out all the info. on their lenses. Shamir has been designing lenses for many years and have designed many progressive lenses out there for other companies. For enough $'s they would design a line of lenses for you and I and we could give it a name and promote it.

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    If you were painting your Lexus... you wouldn't put Ford primer on a GM base coat, then spray Nissan top coat on, because it is not going to be stable, and would peel off and look terrible. Same philosophy appplies to spectacle lenses
    Always use the manufactureres own MAR coating - they dont spend millions on R&D for nothing

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    What AR then for office? here is my Rx for computer pair info

    Quote Originally Posted by jbiggs114
    I am sure that any private optical shop or O.D. office can get any lense you request. If they can't it is because they only want to support certain companies or the lab they use is probably owned by the lense company and doesn't want to supply them with it. If they say they can't get it from their lab asked them to contact a lab that does have the lense you want. After all, it is your $ being spent and if the lense you want is not a good choice for you the dispenser should be edcuated enough to explain why.




    The problem with all of them is that if I want to do something other than they recommend, they started acting weird. One place that use Varilux only, said, with a condescending tone that they could get me any len of any brand I want but said that they don't know anything about the AR on that lens, and they don't guarantee.

    The place where I was told that she could get me Shamir Office, the quote included Scratch protection, UV, and AR but she wouldn't say the type of AR and wants me. Knowing that AR issue, I wanted to know what AR the inluded one was to determine whether they were competent enough to recommend the best AR for that particular product but she wouldn't tell me. Then I asked whether they could put Zeiss Carat Advantage and she had to call the lab and got that info for me. Eventaully, she got mad at me saying that in her 25 years of business, she has not seen anyone asking questions like that. I replied that that didn't mean that those people were doing a better job. I ended up telling her that I has a Master's degree in Chemsitry and I am used to doing research, which was something they didn't seem to want me to do. I had already told her that people who gives me information will get my business and that I am not interested in saving a little bit $$ going all over the town. When she told me that the lens should be determined after picking a frame, I replied that the prescription would influence the lens I choose, and the lens information would influence my picking a frame and that I would not sacrifice my vision just because I am stuck on the fashion. Even the one in SF would say the bigger frame the better for computer pair using Shamir Office instaed of just answerign me the fitting height requireemnt on Shamir Office. So I must get complete information from this board and then find a place that would do what I ask. Thanks everyone for helping me. I really appreciate it. I need to get these eye glasse fast. I have lost too much time already for not coming to this board before and relying on the local places.


    Quote Originally Posted by jbiggs114
    Before making the choice of what lense to use, one should take a look at the rx and what size frame and understand what your visual needs are.






    My prescription for dress pair is

    +1.00 -0.75 150 - -

    -0.25 -0.50 040 - (Add 150)



    My prescription for computer pair is

    +2.00 -0.75 150 - -

    +0.75 -0.50 040 - -



    When I was posting in another thread, I forgot to give the Rx for computer pair. I was posting the dress version only when someone suggested to Shamir Office for my low Rx. I do know that computer Rx is derived from the dress RX. Can anyone confirm that Shamir office is *still* sutiable for my Rx for computer pair given above. I tried to read from a table at Shamir site for Office at http://www.shamirlens.com/office_availability.php but I am not getting what distance of office dynamic power I would get for my Rx.

    Again, what AR would Shamir Offcie recommended. Their website is quiet on that. The construction on the link for eyesglasswearer is not done yet.

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    [QUOTE=Jedi]The Ellipse is probably closer to the Piccolo and Varilux Ipseo would be in the same genre as the Autograph. I have been pleasantly suprised with the Ellipse and mid-range vision and have had extremely positive results from the Ipseo. [/qquote]

    Thanks for the info.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi
    One thing to consider regarding the AR coating is warranty. When a supplier puts it's own AR coating on their own lens the usual warranty is 2 years, oftn when a third party AR is applied the warranty is 1 year. Best to check that out.
    One place put it like this: standard for 1 year warranty and a better one for 2 year warranty which is a little more costly. For example this place said that they can do Shamir Office for me and I have a choice betwene Crizal (1 year) and Crizal Alize for $16 more (2 year). I wasn't told who would put the AR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbiggs114
    Shamir Piccolo can be fit at 16mm. This is the suggested fitting ht. from shamir and it is working well for all of the offices that I have using Shamir products.

    On coating I prefer Zeiss Carat Advantage. This is their latest A/R. A little pricy but worth it. Cheap a/r can cause nightmares.

    Is this Zeiss MAR for Shamir products, i.e Piccolo as well as Office? Crizal Alize wouldn' be MAR for Shamir, would it?

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    Wow! I can't believe that there is so much lack of information regarding AR. How long has AR been available? Well, your reps have let you all down.

    First, Crizal & Crizal Alize are mentioned here the most times. Crizal products are owned by Essilor and they control which lenses it will be on. Guess which lenses are on the list? The only other I know that are on the list besides Essilor are the Kodak Precise and Kodak Concise. The essilor labs and independant labs apply these and they both should have a 2yr warranty. Big brother here also gets a huge royalty from the independants.

    Then there are the other coatings mentioned (several). The other AR's are typically applied by a lab and not the manufacturer. These can be applied to most lenses. Well, guess who is short on information when there are problems with the AR; the labs of course. You need to be asking who is applying the AR; a lab or an AR manufacturer with a R&D group.

    When a quality AR stack is combined with a quality cushion coat/hardcoat and both are applied properly to a quality lens surface then you get a magnificant medical device called perscription eyewear. Any lack of knowledge about hardcoat structure, AR structure, lens quality before coating and the combination of these are a disaster and unfortunately the cause of that statement, "oh, that stuff. Yea I had it before and it came off. NO, I don't want that." :(

    Start asking questions about AR. Most reps don't really know much about it.

    Disclaimer: I do NOT work for Essilor or reccomend Crizal.

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    You are right most reps do not know and do not care to know. I am a lab rep and the reason I have been successful is because I take the time to learn myself and educate my accounts. A good lab rep also has an outstanding lab behind them. If the rep doesn't know how can you expect the lab to know. All reps are not just sales people some of us can actually do the lab work and the dispensing too.

    Crizal is mention more than any other because Essilor is so huge and widespread. Zeiss is also big, and they have been into lenses a very long time. If you have a Sony camera, it has a Zeiss lense. Many cameras have Zeiss lenses. Their coating can be applied to almost all lenses. Yor lab rep should have a list for you and info on all coatings. (if they are willing to share it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbiggs114
    You are right most reps do not know and do not care to know.
    That's what I found out.

    I have learned almost 2 months ago that Varilux, the Crizal or rizel Alize is MAR. The apst 5 days, I have been diligently trying to find out what would be MAR for Shmair products as in Crizal is for Varilux nd and still no info, not form any lab, not form this board, not even at shmairlens.com. There is no one to answer question on the phone; they only have automated tel system built for those who place orders. So far what I have found out is that Zeiss Carat Adavantge is good and recommended for Shamir Office and Piccolo but I get the idea that it is applied in the lab. So I still have no information whether there is MAR for Shamir lens or not.

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    Shamir does not have their own A/R. Sola has Teflon that they own. Zeiss has SET, GET, Carat, Carat Advantage and can be applied to anything and they also own Sola. Hoya has their own A/R , Hi-Vision, and Super Hi-Vision, these can only be applied to Hoya. Essilor owns Crizal and Alize and now can be applied to almost any lense, a couple years ago it could only be applied to varulix.
    Satis is a company that develops formulas for many companies. They will create a formula for you and I and we can have our own A/R, name it what we want and have it developed to be applied to lenses we want it to go on. They also owns the machines fresh out of their R&D to work with the A/R we have had them to develop for us. Now you and I shall be in the A/R business, we put these machine in as many labs as we can (or ones that can afford them and want to do their own a/r). Some labs have several A/R set-ups. They may have Essilors and also have Zeiss. Satis has created many well known A/R's (but never for Hoya) As far as I know Hoya Super Hi-Vision is the only A/R that is designed for Hoya lenses only.
    All A/R is applied in a lab.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbiggs114
    Shamir does not have their own A/R. Sola has Teflon that they own. Zeiss has SET, GET, Carat, Carat Advantage and can be applied to anything and they also own Sola. Hoya has their own A/R , Hi-Vision, and Super Hi-Vision, these can only be applied to Hoya. Essilor owns Crizal and Alize and now can be applied to almost any lense, a couple years ago it could only be applied to varulix.
    Satis is a company that develops formulas for many companies. They will create a formula for you and I and we can have our own A/R, name it what we want and have it developed to be applied to lenses we want it to go on. They also owns the machines fresh out of their R&D to work with the A/R we have had them to develop for us. Now you and I shall be in the A/R business, we put these machine in as many labs as we can (or ones that can afford them and want to do their own a/r). Some labs have several A/R set-ups. They may have Essilors and also have Zeiss. Satis has created many well known A/R's (but never for Hoya) As far as I know Hoya Super Hi-Vision is the only A/R that is designed for Hoya lenses only.
    All A/R is applied in a lab.
    Thank you so much for that information. Good to know that Essilor's Crizal and Alize can now be applied to almost any lens as I was puzzled about one place telling me these Ar with Shamir office. But this same place, which introduced me to the info on Sola Access (by the manager) told me that the AR for it would be Super Hi-Vision. Now, you information that "Hoya has their own A/R , Hi-Vision, and Super Hi-Vision, these can only be applied to Hoya." makes me wonder...

    I am definitely not filling my prescription at that place since for both dress pair and computer pair, at early stage, they had clearly showed interest in getting the business at my expense by failure to inform me (by the manager who has enough knowledge on Panamic, Comfort, and Ellipse and the Sola Access) that the frame I was thinking of using didn't have enough fitting height to get the benefit I was after. She was ready to take order for computer pair using Sola Access with my frame which only 15mm fitting height.

    I found a place not far from where I live when I was dropping off some clothes for alteration. I went there mainly to find frames. In the process, the guy there, though young was so thorough and ethical. He suggested me Zeiss Gradal Top or Hoya Lux Summit for dress pair, giving me 22 mm and 18 mm requirement respectively. At first, he was saying that the frame I was interested in might just make it for Hoya Lux Summit but he checked with the lab and gave me the expression that iI may not get max benefit."

    I am willing to wear a slightly bigger frame but I am a petite and anything slightly bigger than 16 mm or 17 mm seems to be big for me. Sigh. For Sola, he said that I would need at least 18mm while as the other place was almost ready to take order with my 15mm one and later told me that 16mm would eb fine which I think was due to the the reason that the other frame I liked - found it at their store - had 16mm.

    I can settle for Ellipse for dress pair but I need to come up with a solution for computer pair. Either get a really big frame and act like fashion or jut get a reading glass with AR so that I can use that pair to work on computer and read at the same time.

    Do you know anything about Ipseo? Is it older design than Ellipse? What's the fitting ht for that?

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    Sorry, I don't know anything about the Ipseo. The Ellipse can be fit to 14mm, but keep in mind the Hoya Summit Cd can also be fit at 14mm with the Super Hi-Vision A/R. Also Zeiss has the Brevity that can be fit at 16 and you could use the Carat Advantage A/R.
    Make sure when you are fit they use a lay-out chart for the lenses you are getting, take your PD, mark up the lense, use the frame you are getting and put it on the lay-out chart to see how much of the reading you will actually have when they are made. Ask them to do this.
    For computer use, the Sola Access is an older technology. I would choose the Shamir Office with Carat Advantage. My husband is a musician and that is what he wears. Before he wore a Zeiss RD with Zeiss A/R. It was good until newer technology came along with Shamir computer lense.
    Shamir, Zeiss and Hoya are premium products. Sola has been a little behind but I am sure this will change since Zeiss bought them out.
    All of this is so confusing to ones mind and changes happening all the time. This is probably the reason so many dispensers stick with one lense and one a/r company and it is usually the company their lab supports. Unfortunalty, some choose by the perks they get.
    Good Luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbiggs114
    Sorry, I don't know anything about the Ipseo. The Ellipse can be fit to 14mm, but keep in mind the Hoya Summit Cd can also be fit at 14mm with the Super Hi-Vision A/R. Also Zeiss has the Brevity that can be fit at 16 and you could use the Carat Advantage A/R.
    Make sure when you are fit they use a lay-out chart for the lenses you are getting, take your PD, mark up the lense, use the frame you are getting and put it on the lay-out chart to see how much of the reading you will actually have when they are made. Ask them to do this.
    I will ask; I will print what this info and take with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbiggs114
    For computer use, the Sola Access is an older technology. I would choose the Shamir Office with Carat Advantage. My husband is a musician and that is what he wears. Before he wore a Zeiss RD with Zeiss A/R. It was good until newer technology came along with Shamir computer lense.
    Shamir, Zeiss and Hoya are premium products. Sola has been a little behind but I am sure this will change since Zeiss bought them out.
    Thanks for the info on technology. At the place I found yesterady where I went ahead to get Shamir office - he hasn't ordered yet as he closed right after I left - he didn't really encourage Acarat. He was giving me 2 year warranty with what he called Zeiss super ET. I never heard that super ET term before. He said the price difference of $70 doesn't give twice as good but I don't think like that. I don't mind getting carat even if it gives me better clarity of any diffeference.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbiggs114
    All of this is so confusing to ones mind and changes happening all the time. This is probably the reason so many dispensers stick with one lense and one a/r company and it is usually the company their lab supports. Unfortunalty, some choose by the perks they get.
    Good Luck!
    This one said he fills Shamir office a lot. I notice that places that optometrist own with employees tend to stick to Access probably because it's just easier for the employee not to have to keep learning new things. I sure am glad that I learned about Shamir office in this forum. (At Pearle Visiosn, the guy who suggested me to get a computer pair, didn't even tell me the name when i aksed - I was thinking that there would be a name like panamic, Comfort, etc.. He asked more than once and he just said that it's computer pair. He wasn't new or young and is experienced enough not to say that to me. He just wanted to give me some generic one with polycarbonate lens. He made it sound like it could be done with poly only.) This has been a very eye opening learnign experince. I would have started a few years ago had I not been sickw ith surgery and nasal condition that didn't get diagnosed until things got out of control with weakness from the the surgery.

    Thanks a lot. I really appreciate it.

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    Zeiss Super ET is Zeiss's standard AR. It is a very good standard AR, but it isn't as scratch resistant as the Zeiss Carat, nor will it be as easy to clean.

    I disagree about the Sola Acess being old technology. I plan to learn more about the Shamir Office and am interested in trying it, but the Sola Access has a lot going for it also.

    Frankly, you would probably do fine in either lens.

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    Sorry, I should have said, Access is an OLDER lense than the Shamir Office. My bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbiggs114
    you have a Sony camera, it has a Zeiss lense. Many cameras have Zeiss lenses. Their coating can be applied to almost all lenses.
    Yes Zeiss make the lenses and the coatings for many cameras, and more often than not the lens will be glass, especially the outermost lenses. Having worked hand in hand with a coating manufacturer, and tested many of the coating products, I tell you again - do not mix the lens manufacturer and the coating applied

    simply:

    The hardcoat laquer has to match the lens substrate, and the MAR coating has to match the hardcoat - if you dont join all these things up, the coating has a short life.. The major coating manufacturers spend millions sorting these issues out in R&D, and for a good reason too, they produce stable products

    Each manufacturer has a different method and temperature for the initial clean for the products, the drying is very important too, the way the hardcoat laquer sets, and its drying temperature will be addjusted for the particular lens substrate etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1
    The hardcoat laquer has to match the lens substrate, and the MAR coating has to match the hardcoat - if you dont join all these things up, the coating has a short life..
    I beg to differ...................a hard coat holding and adhering properly to the lens surface has NOTHING to do with the AR coating properly adhering to it.

    There many hard coats on the market that have superb adherance to a lens surface and hardness as well .................however they are not suited for a good adherance of an AR coating whatever brand or make it is.

    Hard coats that are compatible with AR coatings and provide good adherance are readily available on the market and many or most independent AR coaters that promote their own brands are aware of it and are using them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser
    I beg to differ...................a hard coat holding and adhering properly to the lens surface has NOTHING to do with the AR coating properly adhering to it.

    There many hard coats on the market that have superb adherance to a lens surface and hardness as well .................however they are not suited for a good adherance of an AR coating whatever brand or make it is.

    Hard coats that are compatible with AR coatings and provide good adherance are readily available on the market and many or most independent AR coaters that promote their own brands are aware of it and are using them.
    here is some info from just one manufacturer

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoya
    HOYA

    http://www.perret-optic.ch/optometri...i__hoya_gb.htm

    Substrate Matching Process concept & process improvement:

    To assure the highest possible quality HOYA employs remarkable and sophisticated combined technology: the Substrate Matching Process concept. One of its key technological experiences is the index-matching hard coating. That means, for substrate index 1.5, 1.6 or 1.7, with the same specifications for the hard layer index.
    And, in order to complete this balanced process, based on the same philosophy, the multi-coat antireflection layer indexes are in perfect harmony with the basis substrate and hard layer index specifications.
    If this highly balanced technology is not applied, or the requested index matching philosophy is misapplied--for example with relation to 1.5, 1,6 or 1.7 index plastics--the incorrectly applied hard coating liquid 'alternatives' result in so-called 'Newton rings', caused by interference patterns, negatively affecting the appearance of the lens.


    The results of Hoya's efforts and know-how:

    In recent years, guided by its aims, know-how and long-term technological experience, Hoya has developed a number of high-quality plastic materials and treatments, with a number of striking and practical characteristics, based on Hoya standards. Safety, reliability, durability, scratch resistance, elasticity, UV-protection and transparency are key element for reflecting Hoya's differentiating quality aspects and advantages.

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    That is why Hoya A/R is so good and different than all the others is because of the substrate matching process. When you order 1.7 you get a/r that matches, when you order 1.6 you also get a/r that matches. They are not all mixed up and set through the same process.
    So, if you use 1 a/r for all lenses it works and can be good, but the properties does not match and you are not matching the a/r to the lense.

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