Fake Crizal?

[uluvbs]

Now that we're on the subject . . .

I've seen a couple posts on here from people claiming they ordered Crizal lenses and got something else. I thought it was just me.

-1- A couple months ago, I ordered Crizal Alize poly lenses from a certain online merchant, and later on another optician I visited told me my glasses were defintely not Alize, and he could tell this when he went to clean the lenses, he said. (The lenses were only a couple months old, if that matters.) I called the merchant who sold them, and they said they checked the invoice from the lab and that "Crizal Alize" was on it. The mystery continues.

-2- I am about to order Resolution poly lenses with Alize from a place in Connecticut with an in-house lab. But another optician just informed me that they are not allowed to put Alize on non-Essilor lenses and that I couldn't possibly be getting that coating. He says they are just telling me it's Alize and are putting on a something similar.

Can someone please advise me on points 1 and 2 above?

Thank you much.

[AWTECH]

I am not sure what Essilor allows as far as the application of Alize. It would not be unreasonable for them to restrict the application to Essilor only lenses.

Alize has the marketing name to the optical world. It is by far the best known hydrophobic. Hydrophobics have been used for years, theirs is just an improved version, easier to clean.

What you care about is performance.

Is the hydrophobic bonded to the lens surface?, not just rubbed or dipped on, without a chemical reaction to the lens AR? If it is not chemically bonded it will wear off much faster than a hydrophobic that bonds to the surface of the AR.

What is the contact angle of the hydrophobic you are getting? Unfortunately there are not instruments to measure contact angle at retail locations so you have to believe the source of the information.

Alize is a good product and if you order it you should get it, if they want to subsitute an equal they should be able to provide you with information to prove it is equal or at least very similar.

Lenscrafters just agreed to pay $102,000 in a case settlement. They were accused of supplying what the customers were ordering. They naturally denined anywrong doing with the agreement to pay! You be the judge if they really did anything wrong or did they just decide to be nice and pay penalties for fun?

[karen]

-2- I am about to order Resolution poly lenses with Alize from a place in Connecticut with an in-house lab. But another optician just informed me that they are not allowed to put Alize on non-Essilor lenses and that I couldn't possibly be getting that coating. He says they are just telling me it's Alize and are putting on a something similar.

Can someone please advise me on points 1 and 2 above?

Thank you much.

You can put Alize on non Essilor product, just not all of it. You can put it on their poly (Airwear) so Resolution is possible but I am not sure. Pete, are you out there? Is Resolution an approved material??

P.S- I think you should not order from online merchants for lots of reasons but this is reason enough-how do you know what you are getting if you don't really know who you are geting it from-they could get their product from anywhere. If they are not authorized Varilux distributors the product they are getting is grey market so who knows....

[chip anderson]

When you git right down to it, on line opticians are fake opticians so why shouldn't a patient expect fake product?

[Jubilee]

Lenscrafters just agreed to pay $102,000 in a case settlement. They were accused of supplying what the customers were ordering. They naturally denined anywrong doing with the agreement to pay! You be the judge if they really did anything wrong or did they just decide to be nice and pay penalties for fun?

Ok.. a couple of questions here...If they were supplying the customers with what they were ordering, then why is there a lawsuit? Do you have any specifics for this case?

I know that we can get Crizal. I have ordered them, and received them complete with the certificate of authenticity verifying it is the real deal. I also know that the improved reflection free was marketed to us as the equivilant of the original Crizal... I personally try to dissuade people from purchasing it, just because it takes a lot longer for us to get (in some cases more than a month) and most patients don't want to pay the extra $100 we charge on top for Crizal compared to Reflection Free.

Cassandra

[Chris Ryser]

As having invented, been the first one to come up with hydrophobic coatings and topcoats back in 1987. ......................and as

Having manufactured and sold these products ever since, from large corporations to independents and small coating companies around the world I am surpirsed that you people out there are still walking around in the dark about knowing what it is all about in principle only.

1) AR coat (whatever name it is called)

b) applied in vaccum coating unit

b) applied chemically by dipcoating or spincoating


2) Hydrophobic coating. (whatever name it is called)

a) applied by evaporating a pill of polysiloxan (a few different makes available) in the vacuum chamber.

b) applied by dipcoating in a polysiloxane solution and curing it.


3) Sealer Topcoat (whatever name it is called) Seals the surface makes it slippery and easy to clean.

a) applied in vaccum chamber by heating and evaporating a concentrate of organopolysiloxane onto the surface.

b) applied by dipping into a organopolysilaxce solution and then curing it.


4) Sealer Topcoat (providing all characteristics described in 3) but additionally providing permanent anti - fog and anti-static properties).

a) application in vacuum chamber not possible at this time.

b) applied by dipping into solution of organopolisiloxane containing the required additives, and curing it.


Version 4) is widely used in Europe and the far East while in the US one of the large players is applying it without advertising the benefits.

I hope you accept above as a fair description of the basic application of the AR coating process at this stage of time. All the applications are just as good as they have been done by the individual lab, but properly applied each and every one of above techniques will provide good results.................and the rest is just plain advertising and hype and or bad mouthing..

[Joann Raytar]

I also know that the improved reflection free was marketed to us as the equivilant of the original Crizal

I thought Crizal had a scratch resistant coating that Reflection Free NP didn't. I know that our lab lists RF as a seperate product from Crizal. I also notice that we have far fewer returns with Crizal.

[Chris Ryser]

I thought Crizal had a scratch resistant coating that Reflection Free NP didn't. I know that our lab lists RF as a seperate product from Crizal. I also notice that we have far fewer returns with Crizal.

AR coatings originally applied on glass lenses had no adhesion problems as the AR coating material consists of SIO2( silicone dioxide) which is also glass.

The coating material does not properly adhere on plastic lenses a thermo cure hard coat (siloxane, in the silicone glass family) to give a proper bond to the plastic lens surface. As follows:

1) Plastic lens

2) Hard coat

3) AR coating

There is no hard coat on top of an AR coating of any make.

[Jacqui]

There is no hard coat on top of an AR coating of any make.

Why not??

[Jubilee]

I thought Crizal had a scratch resistant coating that Reflection Free NP didn't. I know that our lab lists RF as a seperate product from Crizal. I also notice that we have far fewer returns with Crizal.

For us it is listed as a seperate coating that Reflection Free, and any Crizal has to be sent to a different lab as well. I know of several associates who have called the Reflection Free lab, and asked about the differences... and were told that they were equivillant. When asked further, they were told the difference was Crizal had tighter controls and it had the better warranty, and that is why it cost more.

I know we have had better results since the improved version rolled out. Is it the same? I don't know. I still don't tout it as such to the patients that come in and ask for Crizal by name, but I have a manager who gets upset at me everytime because she was one of the people who was told it was the same.

Please note that it is being compared to the original Crizal and not the Alize.

To compete with Alize, LC partnered with Essilor to roll out the Scotchgard Anti-reflective lens. The promotional materials they rolled out for it lists the same one touted by Alize. Better scratch resistance, hydrophobic, oliophobic, anti-static, etc. Of course no one in presenting the new coating to us, could explain whether it was on par with Alize, or if it was supposed to be better.

Cassandra

[Chris Ryser]

Why not??

Because a scratch coat has a thickness of 2 microns and would neutralize and nullify any effect of the AR coating properties.

I know of several associates who have called the Reflection Free lab, and asked about the differences... and were told that they were equivillant.

They are most probably right, Reflection Free is ESSILOR..............Alizee is ESSILOR..............so the Reflection Free is using the Alize procedure for lenses sold to LC so that nobody can complain they are selling the Alize to LC.

[rolandclaur]

Chris.. you seem to be very knowledgeable about the application of various topical coatings on lenses.. Would you be able to direct me to a resource (other than your brain)!!! that would give me more insight and knowledge of the exact procedures of how those coatings are applied.. Thanks

[Chris Ryser]

Chris.. you seem to be very knowledgeable about the application of various topical coatings on lenses.. Would you be able to direct me to a resource (other than your brain)!!! that would give me more insight and knowledge of the exact procedures of how those coatings are applied.. Thanks

rolandclaur, start by going on my website at http://optochemicals.com there is tons of information, I got for sure at least 10-15 pages dealing with coatings of all sort and types.

By the way coatings in the optical were always used so,ewhere else before they started in the optical. So, usually the optical is hanging well behind other industries.

If you imagine that I was marketing a coating similar to the ESSILOR Alize, different application already in 1987. So tell me how far they are ahead of the game with their latest products.

[AWTECH]

This tread keeps talking about one Essilor product compared to another. As Chris has stated they are all similar.

The main difference is the standards used to control various manufacturers processes. For example the hard coating and how it is etched to accept the AR. This is different for different materials and can even vary from a poly lens made by two different manufacturers. This is due to the mould release agents used are different from one manufacturer to another. To best control results in the ideal AR lab you would have a different production line for each lens type and manufacturer. This would yield very predictable results, but most labs can not offer this they have to put the same hard coating on many different types of lenses.

Warranty is another issue. Each manufacturer can offer a longer warranty if they know the conditions that the lens is coated under.

Thermal hard coatings have a shelf life and if they are not replaced as required you do not get a good bonded hard coat. Two labs can use the same materials and if you get lenses from one when the hard coating is new and lenses from the other when the hard coating is six months old, you will find a difference in quality of the AR, even though the AR itself is applied in exactly the same manner.

Know your lab and their capabilities. Know their standards, and remember if you want a lower price you can find it but in most cases your quality will be lower the lower the price.

[chip anderson]

"Thermal hard coat bonding have shelf life and if they are not replaced"

Does this mean that in addittion to shelf-life they have a predictable in use life and we should be selling coated plastic lenses as "a one-year" or a "two-year" or "whatever-year" product and: 1) the mfg. should inform us of this. 2) we should advise patients that "unless you replace your lenses (or coatings) at x interval this is not the product for you?

Chip

[AWTECH]

Chip, I do not mean that the hard coatings have a shelf life after they are applied and thermally cured. The shelf life is after they are manufactured but before they are applied and thermally cured.

Once thermally cured, they last a long long time.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was not clear with my explanation.

[edKENdance]

Am I the only one getting a hard on reading this?

/Jedi Hand wave

I did not just type that.

[slaboff]

I can tell you for sure that you cannot get alize' on a resolution lens

[Chris Ryser]

I can tell you for sure that you cannot get alize' on a resolution lens

Some newly aquired labs by ESSILOR in Quebec are advertising the following:

Do you really believe that they are doing different processes between pure Essilor and their subsidiaries that run the products under other names?

Most probably what they wont do under one name they will under another using the same procedure and you guy's are paying more for one than the other.

[For-Life]

Chris, sounds like Trio Easy Clean

Different name for the Province of Quebec

[edKENdance]

*cough* ScotchGuard *cough*

[For-Life]

*cough* ScotchGuard *cough*

So at Lenscrafters when you buy a scotchguard lens do they give you an inferior lens at no extra charge? (just kidding Ed, I know you do not do that)

[Chris Ryser]

Chris, sounds like Trio Easy Clean

Different name for the Province of Quebec

Does not matter what it is called..............same Essilor process.