Calling all Gerber Gurus!

[Jubilee]

OK.. so my ealier rant about service and parts are still valid.. but our loaner generator also received the dreaded -32V and data corrupt kiss of death

So since tracking down a power and possible chip issue down can take a day in of itself, we were guided to take the optoisolator board (the part I still have no ETA on from Gerber 6 weeks after order) from the loaner and put it into our machine.

Well the tech said follow the instructions on page 5-98 of the SGX manual, and follow the steps for 5.50... So I was an idiot and didn't really look this over, it seemed simple enough and I started in..

Well that particular section was on the removal/replacement of the Electrical Enclosure. I don't want to switch entire enclosures since more than likely our -32v error on the loaner is located somewhere in that area. My boss said she would call Diagnostics while I picked up my child and took him to the grandparents.

When I came back to the store, the information she received on the optoisolator board was that it isn't the power supply, or the solid state relays, and it was where the data cable actually connects into, and plugs into the servo board..

This confused the heck out of me. The data connection is a serial port. The port is one end of a cable that runs from the back of the machine where the data cable plugs into, to the CPU board. The data cable plugs into serial port one, and the other end plugs into the communication sub board on the CPU board. The other end doesn't have a data connection on it, but has one end that plugs into the CPU board as well..

My boss thought that this implied that what they call "optoisolator boards" are in reality serial cables. It doesn't make sense why I have been waiting forever on these parts if they are cables and not boards...

But being desperate and praying for luck, I switched the cables from the loaner to our machine. Still get remote host offline errors.. Replaced servo board, same error. Replaced CPU board, and transfered chip and this time got a modem initializing message which I took at the time as a positive since it was trying to communicate.. still got remote host offline. Tried replacing the I/O board with no luck as well..

Are any of you guys and gals out there familiar enough to
A: tell me if the optoisolator board is really serial cables or
B: describe to me what the board really is
C: have any other ideas or suggestions to get this baby back up

Thanks in advance for the help!

Cassandra

[impact500]

Jubilee: <<the part I still have no ETA on from Gerber 6 weeks after order>>

I wish I had a meaningful technical suggestion. I do not. Six weeks and not even a delivery estimate is ridiculous, however. Why can't Gerber take the part out of a unit in inventory?

In a press release a week or two ago, Gerber indicated that they were writing down Gerber-Coburn inventory by as much as a couple million dollars. So they have too much inventory (the press release) or too little (lack of service to you) or planning is that bad (too much of what customers don't want and too little of what customers need)?

I see you are in Indy. In the good old days JR and GE out of Ft. Wayne perhaps could have solved your problem. But Gerber found them expendable I guess.

[shanbaum]

OK.. so my ealier rant about service and parts are still valid.. but our loaner generator also received the dreaded -32V and data corrupt kiss of death

So since tracking down a power and possible chip issue down can take a day in of itself, we were guided to take the optoisolator board (the part I still have no ETA on from Gerber 6 weeks after order) from the loaner and put it into our machine.

Well the tech said follow the instructions on page 5-98 of the SGX manual, and follow the steps for 5.50... So I was an idiot and didn't really look this over, it seemed simple enough and I started in..

Well that particular section was on the removal/replacement of the Electrical Enclosure. I don't want to switch entire enclosures since more than likely our -32v error on the loaner is located somewhere in that area. My boss said she would call Diagnostics while I picked up my child and took him to the grandparents.

When I came back to the store, the information she received on the optoisolator board was that it isn't the power supply, or the solid state relays, and it was where the data cable actually connects into, and plugs into the servo board..

This confused the heck out of me. The data connection is a serial port. The port is one end of a cable that runs from the back of the machine where the data cable plugs into, to the CPU board. The data cable plugs into serial port one, and the other end plugs into the communication sub board on the CPU board. The other end doesn't have a data connection on it, but has one end that plugs into the CPU board as well..

My boss thought that this implied that what they call "optoisolator boards" are in reality serial cables. It doesn't make sense why I have been waiting forever on these parts if they are cables and not boards...

But being desperate and praying for luck, I switched the cables from the loaner to our machine. Still get remote host offline errors.. Replaced servo board, same error. Replaced CPU board, and transfered chip and this time got a modem initializing message which I took at the time as a positive since it was trying to communicate.. still got remote host offline. Tried replacing the I/O board with no luck as well..

Are any of you guys and gals out there familiar enough to
A: tell me if the optoisolator board is really serial cables or
B: describe to me what the board really is
C: have any other ideas or suggestions to get this baby back up

Thanks in advance for the help!

Cassandra

I'm going to forward your post to the most knowledgable SGX tech I know - problem is, he may not be in until Tuesday.

I will also forward it to our Senior Management team. Believe me, these people have been trying to solve these inventory problems; they just haven't completely succeeded - yet.

I was under the impression that the optoisolator on the SGX was a chip - they usually are. It converts the low-level electrical signals on the serial line to flashes of light, which are detected by a photocell and converted back to the same electrical signals as before (all inside the chip). The point of doing that is to electrically isolate the generator from whatever it's connected to via the serial line (usually a computer), which protects both the machine and the computer, especially when they're powered from different service panels - there can be a potential between the ground conductors on different panels. We fried a few machines and computers back when the SG-8 came out and we started connecting machines to computers, so the SGX got an internal optoisolator. There are external ones as well, that look like gender-changer or null-modem connectors.

The bit about "initializing modem" sounded a little odd. Did anyone have you run the serial port test?

Lastly, I suggest that you follow do what field service tells you to do - that is, if they tell you to swap the electrical enclosure, do that.

Send me a private message with your e-mail address and other contact information.

p.s. The change in Gerber's sales organization (the reference to JR and GE from FW) had nothing to do with "expendability". It had a lot to do with Satis' purchase of Loh.

[Jubilee]

Let me give you the long version of the story with our generator.

Basically I was cutting a lens, and mid process received a spindle error. The power had just flickered, and I thought it was due to the drop in electricity at the moment and rebooted. When I went to restart the lens, it wouldn't pull the data and I kept receiving "remote host offline".

After spending most the afternoon checking data connections and networking, it was decided that the line running from our systech box from the main server, to our generator data port was bad. Called in a networking service tech and they came to the store to run new wiring two days later.

In the meantime, we tried to check in our machine to try manually keying in the information. The spindle was still not actuating, and we ended up replacing the spindle speed controller, the speed sensor, and the motor itself. (the former motor was actually throwing sparks..)

After they performed all their diagnosis on the network connections, it was discovered that not only was the line running between the server and the generator blown, but the systech box itself was compromised, and the port the line was plugged into was now also bad. The tech basically compared it to a near by but not direct lightening strike... In the meantime we tried the alternate network connections game and bounced between our generator and our tracing system.

Unfortunately, our generator was then receiving "job load failed" errors. It was explained to me that "remote host offline" is a problem in receiving data, where "job load failed" means the data is corrupt. After speaking with the diagnostics center, they told me that the first part to replace would be the opto isolator board, and other possible issues would be any or all of the 3 main boards. So I ordered everything it could possibly be and after I got the first b/o notice on the opto isolator board, we ran to Cincinnati to grab a loaner sight unseen, fresh from the field, but operational SGX.

I would have sent them ours, but they don't connect into the same network as the stores do, and thus they don't have the ability to test the connections and software settings the way we do in a store...since originally we were told it was a software issue.

Anyway..

If the optoisolator is a chip, shouldn't we have already replaced it with one of the 3 main boards. I can't think of what other boards are on there, but I will certainly view the schematics of the boards again for something I may have missed.

Thank you all for trying to help me solve this issue

Cassandra

[Aarlan]

Gotta love this high tech stuff... Our old 108 could be fixed with almost no difficulty. Too bad we get charged exorbitant amounts for all the new tech with all the bells and whistles, and while we're still paying for it, we have to be off line and pay a kings ransom for a technician to come look at it. I guess it's not good 'business' to make a product that lasts a long time...not enough profit in that (Not a rant about just Gerber btw, they are no worse than most others.)

AA

[GOS_Queen]

Cassandra -

We have a Gerber generator in our lab. Your post seems to prove my theory that every major holiday weekend it shuts down... (we're still waiting on ours to do that).

We LIKE shuttling jobs to other stores ... we LIKE that ... LOL

Sorry I have nothing to help you other than (hopefully) some leviaty ...

Karen :p

[shanbaum]

Too bad we get charged exorbitant amounts for all the new tech with all the bells and whistles, and while we're still paying for it, we have to be off line and pay a kings ransom for a technician to come look at it.

You've obviously never had to ransom a king.

[Jubilee]

Well I dove into the schematics today, and followed Robert's thinking about a chip. It seems that the optoisolator is a chip that used to be connected to the servo board at J3.

If it is chip, why isn't it on one of our boards.. it isn't even on the old one! I am beginning to wonder if the part I have been waiting on for 6 weeks is even made anymore, and if it is one of the many changes made in the board structure and layouts since the SGX even came out.

I found out from our diagnostic tech that there have been many revisions made to the SGX. And no one seems to have any updated schematics or maintenance/repair information to include these changes. The motors they send us can differ based upon the board style we use.. etc...When we had to replace our power supply we had a dickens of a time getting an updated wiring schematic for the enclosure, and ended up with a gerber tech hand drawing one since they don't have a size that is easily faxed.

I would really hate to think that I have had a generator sitting in my stock room for 6 weeks waiting on a part that isn't needed and/or won't solve the multiple issues at hand.

We tried to manually run again today and the spindle sounded like it was gearing for take off.. that was after I had to replace the Theta motor after repeated theta servo errors...

Was instructed to put the loaner back together and go from there. Well we are still having the -32v errors and data corrupt...Well since the calibration isn't holding properly and the three we pushed through didn't meet standards, I am not going to waste mine or my associates time with it. Shuttle time

It looks like on Tuesday at dawn, I am going to be in Cincinatti with two broken SGX's. Since our ADQA was touring the area with our RQC maybe they will take our request more seriously for a better surge protection system.

Cassandra

[Jubilee]

Cassandra -

We have a Gerber generator in our lab. Your post seems to prove my theory that every major holiday weekend it shuts down... (we're still waiting on ours to do that).

We LIKE shuttling jobs to other stores ... we LIKE that ... LOL

Sorry I have nothing to help you other than (hopefully) some leviaty ...

Karen :p

*chuckle*

We were discussing that today. This whole mess started the week before Memorial Day (May 21st to be exact). I remember that so clearly as I stressed to the maintenance hotline why we needed someone to come before the holiday and not after. Nothing like shuttling at a store and not running the majority of them because you are fielding alternating calls from your RQC, the support center and store maintenance. While the other lab manager empathizes but is a bit pissy..

I guess we are lucky in the sense that we can drive to the Equipment Center. On the other hand, you know you have too many issues when not only do you know them by name... but they know you by name as well.

The biggest frustration is the help other managers seem to give about.. well if you would take care of your equipment.. if you would clean it.. etc..

We do clean every night. Everything it recommends monthly we do weekly, the weekly we do daily etc.. Our store has known electrical issues. Heck one electrician came up with no or faulty grounds in the majority of our outlets in the lab. We replaced 8 ballasts so far this year, and I find it amazing that the latest issue occured after a series of storms that caused the machines to reset 4 times in an hour. That is with line conditioners on every machine.

The last time we had a visit with our ADQA and RVP, I even photocopied all the various maintenance requests, and included a condense version of our equipment log. Estimated cost over the past 5 years due to electrical issues, $100,000. That doesn't even factor in the additional burden on other stores we cause, or our own manpower repairing equipment etc. I don't understand why we have to fight for a 7grand store wide surge protection system when we have already paid that on this one issue alone...

Money back guarantee, 10 year warranty, great references, and will buy back system at half cost if/when we move... why not?

[Rich R]

MMMm Optoisolator board, I believe it connects to the rs232 serial ports, try switching to the other port since you have a serial port 1 and serial port 2, you probably want to change the one on the back to the other port and then also on the cpu board where it connects to, that may work. Also make sure to go into the config menu and go to ports make sure the extra port is set to 9600 baud.

may help ?
Rich R.

[Jubilee]

I tried switching ports.. but didn't think of checking config for modem... I will try that in the morning..


Thanks for a tip!

Cassandra

[impact500]

Jubilee: <<I found out from our diagnostic tech that there have been many revisions made to the SGX. And no one seems to have any updated schematics or maintenance/repair information to include these changes. The motors they send us can differ based upon the board style we use>>

Gerber and Coburn both used to be a great companies. It is sad to watch the current entity fade.

Some on OptiBoard attack foreign firms that expand in the US via their financial capability. I call that capitalism. The sadder case and seldom addressed here is the market share gains by foreign firms due to superior innovation and technological competency. That is the truly sad and more telling case and Gerber-Coburn is an example.

[Chris Ryser]

Some on OptiBoard attack foreign firms that expand in the US via their financial capability. I call that capitalism. The sadder case and seldom addressed here is the market share gains by foreign firms due to superior innovation and technological competency. That is the truly sad and more telling case and Gerber-Coburn is an example.

You being a member of one of the foreign firms seem to be un informed about the the ESSILOR press release of about 2-3 weeks ago.

Gerber Coburn Strengthens Relationship with Essilor Instruments

Two Companies Sign Three-Year Distribution Agreement

SOUTH WINDSOR, Conn. – Gerber Coburn and Essilor Instruments, a division of Essilor International, Paris, announces the continuation of their unique partnership by executing another three-year distribution agreement.

What you actually are saying is that ............ by foreign firms due to superior innovation and technological competency........................
they have made such a big mistake by teaming up with such a sad case company.

I doubt that ESSILOR considers Gerber-Coburn a sad case and it would be either that you made a dead wrong statement gloryfying the foreign overseas companies or that ESSILOR is stupid.

[Blake]

If the problem was strictly a data communications issue, you should be still able to enter jobs manually.
One of my biggest frustrations with the Gerber equipment was the lack of documentation. I don't necessarily blame Gerber for that - I am sure that LC's Equipment Center bears some of the blame. But it's not good when they track everything by the serial number on the machine, and it turns out their info. for that S/N is wrong!
If the optoisolator boards are bad, and you can't get replacements, maybe it is possible to bypass them. I haven't so much as looked at an SGX in months, so I can't begin to suggest how, but maybe it can be done.

Good luck to you. I've been there and know how it feels. Since you're so close to the Equipment Center, maybe you could coax (or threater, as the situation requires) one or two of the experts there into coming in to personally look at it. :)

[Jubilee]

Well it seems like the updated version of the servo board schematics I found, shows that the slot the optoisolators plugged into as no longer used...

And the machine apparently has many other issues than that.. I just couldn't diagnose the full extent without fixing what I know is bad...

Anyway, I will be leaving here at 3:30 am Tuesday to tote them to Cincy and let the big boys handle it.

I am done with all equipment repair for a while. Took the opportunity to replace my orbit drive in the polisher that someone stripped the set screws in, and when I finally got the last bolt loosened after a 15 min fight with it, I flew forward, and smacked my head against the corner of the slurry bowl. Now I have a lovely bruise with a white line going through on my forehead.. and a slight concussion Hey but it is at least fixed!

BTW, I don't mean this to be a bask Gerber thread. I certainly don't place the entire blame on them. It is just frustrating waiting on parts forever, and no one explaining to you why or when they might be in. I understand if something is delayed due to materials, other vendors, manufacturing issues, etc.. I just get irritated at the lack of communication about these issues so I have something to tell MY boss...

Cassandra

[impact500]

Chris Ryser: <<You being a member of one of the foreign firms>>

I do not work for a foreign firm as we have discussed before. Please stop making false statements.

The Essilor - Gerber agreement was extended. It is a sales agent arrangement. It's logical for both parties and not of great consequence financially to either side. It does not contradict the statements I made. It actually confirms my view. Gerber Coburn apparently can't develop an adequate product line themselves so they need to distribute Essilor equipment.

[shanbaum]

Chris Ryser: <<You being a member of one of the foreign firms>>

I do not work for a foreign firm as we have discussed before. Please stop making false statements.

The Essilor - Gerber agreement was extended. It is a sales agent arrangement. It's logical for both parties and not of great consequence financially to either side. It does not contradict the statements I made. It actually confirms my view. Gerber Coburn apparently can't develop an adequate product line themselves so they need to distribute Essilor equipment.

Whether the Essilor-Gerber arrangement is "of great consequence financially" to Gerber depends on the meaning you impute to the subjective term "great", so I can't say your statement is manifestly false; on the other hand, were I to say anything about that, I would probably simply remove the "not".

As far as our inability to develop an "adequate product line [our]selves" is concerned, your characterization is completely wrong. The decision to distribute someone else's finishing equipment (first made on the order of 15 years ago) reflects a choice made by our management, and nothing more. One cannot say anything about our development capabilities, or lack thereof, based on that choice.

[GOS_Queen]

I am done with all equipment repair for a while. Took the opportunity to replace my orbit drive in the polisher that someone stripped the set screws in, and when I finally got the last bolt loosened after a 15 min fight with it, I flew forward, and smacked my head against the corner of the slurry bowl. Now I have a lovely bruise with a white line going through on my forehead.. and a slight concussion Hey but it is at least fixed!

Cassandra

OUCH !!

Karen :hammer:

[impact500]

Shanbaum: <<As far as our inability to develop an "adequate product line [our]selves" is concerned, your characterization is completely wrong. The decision to distribute someone else's finishing equipment (first made on the order of 15 years ago) reflects a choice made by our management, and nothing more. One cannot say anything about our development capabilities, or lack thereof, based on that choice.>>

Of course the decision was made by management. The issue is why did they make that decision.

Given the choice of selling an in-house product of comparable performance vs. one designed, made and branded by an external partner, which choice will tend to produce the better margins? I suspect in-house. Hence the decision to partner with Essilor, leads to a reasonable inference that Gerber product development is lacking. My statement "Gerber Coburn apparently can't develop an adequate product line themselves so they need to distribute Essilor equipment" is not refuted by your response.

The poor response encountered by Jubilee (6 weeks and not even a delivery estimate for a part) and Gerber-Coburn's financial results reinforce a conclusion that there are serious problems there. Both Gerber and Coburn were great companies that innovated and contributed to the industry. Over the past five or more years, GC has been beaten by competitors that are more technologically innovative and who make better products.

Why are sales falling? Why is the division losing money? If you were designing an adequate product line, I suspect the results would be better. Proof? No. Reasonable inference? Yes.

[Jubilee]

I wanted to thank shanbaum for having a tech give me a call. Even though I didn't have my machines there, he was still very helpful to talk to and cleared up a lot of the confusion for me.

Now I am just praying that we get our electrical repairs done soon, because I am at a point where I don't want to put ours back online (whenever we get it) till it is. I am tired of dealing with all the ruckus...

Cassandra

[shanbaum]

Jubilee, I hope they get your problem solved.

Impact, I would simply point out the following: you say that Gerber and Coburn "used to be great companies". I gather from that, that you believe that there was a time in the past when they each had "adequate development capabilities", which, you believe, they no longer have. You base that assertion on the fact that Gerber now distributes someone else's finishing equipment.

However, Gerber made the decision to distribute someone else's finishing equipment before it developed the SGX and the Step One, two of its most innovative products. Indeed, the team that Gerber had in place at the time it made the decision to distribute rather than develop was a superset of the team it had had in place from its beginning.

Coburn, meanwhile, had been distributing someone else's finishing equipment since the early seventies, long before it produced its most innovative products (the Lensmaker and SL/2).

It's certainly true that Coburn enjoyed a position of absolute market dominance in the 70's and 80's (at least domestically), and that it no longer does. However, back when Coburn enjoyed that position, they could hardly have been characterized as innovative - the newest technology they were selling in those years were the cylinder machines, which dated from the early 70's. Everything else was downright ancient.

There are a lot of factors that contributed to this decline in market position, most of which I'm not prepared to discuss publicly. You can be assured I do so privately.

As for our current capabilities, I think the Eclipse blocker, DTL generator, and Dimetrix auto-blocker are good indicators that we're not completely bereft of ability. In fact, I can say without hesitation, that were our management to decide to develop tracers and edgers again (we do make a really good finishing blocker), our engineering team would surprise you.

[impact500]

Shanbaum: <<I gather from that, that you believe that there was a time in the past when they each had "adequate development capabilities", which, you believe, they no longer have. You base that assertion on the fact that Gerber now distributes someone else's finishing equipment.>>

There are actually three reasons why I deduce that Gerber Coburn lacks adequate product development.

Shanbaum: <<Gerber made the decision to distribute someone else's finishing equipment before it developed the SGX and the Step One, two of its most innovative products.>>

If the reason for the Essilor deal no longer exists, why was it renewed? I believe it is a reasonable inference that if you had comparable products that the in-house product would be more profitable and hence you'd sell it exclusively. Since GC renewed with Essilor, I draw the inference that Essilor has a superior product. Proof? No. Reasonable view? Yes. My reason #1.

Gerber Coburn sales have fallen from $101 million in FY99 to $78 million in FY04. Customers in aggregate provide the best view. They are departing GC. My reason #2.

If one tallies GC segment profit and allocates corporate overhead and interest pro rated by divisional sales, GC has lost money in aggregate over the past four reported FYs. If the product line were strong and if "our engineering team would surprise you" why can't you make a profit? My reason #3.

Duly noted that FY05 data should be reported next week. I'll be here swiftly to apologize if the numbers have improved.

[shanbaum]

If the reason for the Essilor deal no longer exists, why was it renewed? I believe it is a reasonable inference that if you had comparable products that the in-house product would be more profitable and hence you'd sell it exclusively. Since GC renewed with Essilor, I draw the inference that Essilor has a superior product. Proof? No. Reasonable view? Yes. My reason #1.

I didn't say the "reason for the Essilor deal no longer exists," but then, I don't accept your assertion that the Essilor deal (nor the Indo deal, nor the Weco deal) were made because we weren't capable of developing product, but for a number of reasons, most of which were strategic in nature, and had, in fact, little or nothing to do with our development capability.

You "draw the inference" that Essilor has superior product (and they are certainly superior to all of the products we have not developed), and then claim that we lose money and customers selling it. Well, we have lost money some quarters, made money others, but those numbers are a matter of public record. I suppose I could (but won't) argue in response that we lose money precisely because we're selling Essilor equipment. I will argue that GC's difficulties over the last couple of years have little to do with development (something about which you appear to acknowledge you can only infer), or with product (outside of the generator line, which is being rectified), and a lot to do with the integration of back-office and manufacturing operations from among the three separate Gerber divisions, which has been, uh, challenging.

[Chris Ryser]

Gerber Coburn sales have fallen from $101 million in FY99 to $78 million in FY04. Customers in aggregate provide the best view. They are departing GC.

Gosh........................and I still remember all those huge swinging Coburn parties during the OLA's for many years.

[eromitlab]

oy... more assurance for me when I have to call G-C on Monday morning with a whole bevy of equipment problems (SGX, Step One Lite, Triumph Tracer and Edger) and a laundry list of parts to order for the lab I have just been transferred to after I just finished completely rebuilding my first assignment (not that I can complain, one of the main reasons I requested this lab is because I like rebuilding stuff), which is why I have disappeared for the past few months for those that noticed. Since it's also closer to home, I hope to have a little more spare time soon.

But anyway, I just tried to plug an external keyboard into my Step One Lite this evening (seems the lower keypad has gone kaput), powered up the unit, and recieved a lovely three beep alarm that just keeps repeating. I think the many years of abuse have finally taken their toll on the poor thing. The casing is missing screws, there's too much wax in the reservoir, the cooling fans and power supply whine like an air raid siren, there's so much dust built up around the interior that vaccuming it out is not even possible (scraping, maybe). Keep in mind this is just the one unit... and there's a whole bunch more I can say about it, but anyhow, does anyone have an idea of what the heck is the matter with the thing? I have my own suspicions (i think the PC inside it is probably beat)... but I'd like some input from some other folks before I go testing my theories.

I'll probably have other questions in a few days after I start pulling things apart (there's an old Optek cylinder machine in the back room that looks like it might work, with a little love and a new set of bearings)... but I offer my thanks to anyone who has some advice to give about this particular issue.