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Thread: EU Constitution...

  1. #1
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    EU Constitution...

    For several reasons, I've been closely following the ratification process for the EU constitution. While I think it is economically best for the US to have the constitution defeated (and Europe less united), I am thunderstruck that the citizens of France and the Netherlands could be so myopic in their political vision!

    I suppose I can now understand the feelings of some of my French friends who could not comprehend how Americans could vote for W. It seems patently obvious to me that unification of Europe would benefit Europeans in the long run.

    Anyway, recent events also make me ponder whether the American constitution would have been ratified under the auspices of today's media. The state representatives had a hard enough time reaching the compromises that went into the constitution. Can you imagine the difficulties if all the citizens of the various states had constant updates on the content of the constitution- as well as an endless diatribe from those opposed to its passing.

    I'm not suggesting that the media- or the First Amendment- is a bad thing. I'm simply wondering if a totally informed public is really amenable to cooperation among peoples. Of course, there are other issues the Europeans have to deal with that the Founding Fathers didn't have to contend with. Namely, completely established individual governments with different philosophies of governance.
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
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  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    I think people tend to forget that the citizens of the US had more than a decade of living under the Articles of Confederation prior to drafting the Constitution so had very recent experience in the folly of trying to be neither fish not fowl--neither united or seperate.

    Your question re the media is an interesting one. I think we live in odds time: I suspect that people in the early years of our country were better informed with a fraction of the media exposure we have now. (Think of the Lincoln/Douglas debates and how that discussion riveted the country and informed the ongoing discussion of slave states/free states. The only other debate in modern times with that kind of notoriety was the Nixon/Kennedy, and most of the buzz around that was Nixon's sweating!!!)

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    I think drawing comparisons between the ratification of the U.S. constitution and the European version is rather difficult as the documents are fundamentally different in scope. Our constitution was some three pages long and laid out the skeleton for an effective republic. The European version was some 500 pages long, full of burecratic minutia and included such things as a game preserve for the Lapps in Scandinavia, and specific crop quotas for French provinces. Would you want that sort of thing enshrined in our constitution? I doubt very much I vote for a constitution requiring Ventura County (my county of residence) produce no more than 1,000 metric tons of strawberries per year. Add to this the general feeling in Europe that the governing bodies of the E.U. are run by unelected or indirectly elected officials and that it's becoming a huge buraucracy and this vote doesn't surprise me in the least.

    Pete, your point about a strengthened European ecomony coupled to greater integration is well taken and I believe that the French, Dutch, English etc. are mostly cognizant of that fact but they don't (didn't) feel this was the best way to get there. I don't actually believe that the media had much to do with it but I haven't been travelling in Europe recently so my sense of the European media is suspect.

  4. #4
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    I agree that the scope is much greater. Of course I wouldn't want hundreds of pages of minutea enshrined in our Constitution. In fact, I don't really want it enacted into Federal Law. One of the reasons for the brevity and limit of scope of the Constitution was the compromising nature of the document. Every detail you add creates greater complexity in getting a general accord.

    So, we started out with a simplistic form of Federal government (and then proceeded to load it up with tens of thousands of pages of regulatory minutea). Sigh...

    PS- Of course regulation is necessary. Interestingly enough, however, Europeans usually come from highly regulated societies (in fact, some of the most ardent opposition in the Netherlands came from those most committed to socialism). Again, economically, I would love to see the Europeans remain as fractionalised as possible. From a European perspective, however, unification makes so much sense it almost defies logic to fight against it!
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Pete, what is it about the EU Constitution that you think would lead to a stronger European economy?

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    Yorkshire Grit optispares's Avatar
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    And From Europe

    never thought i ever say this but thankyou france for a big NON
    http://www.optispares.btinternet.co.uk

    jack


    It is by universal misunderstanding that all agree. For if, by ill luck, people understood each other, they would never agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin
    Again, economically, I would love to see the Europeans remain as fractionalised as possible. From a European perspective, however, unification makes so much sense it almost defies logic to fight against it!
    Yup! From a US-centric view point the apparent defeat of the European Constitution is great economic news. Now all we can start hoping to see the Yuan floated and the eventual fractionalization of China (a la the USSR but to a smaller degree) and then we can start worrying about India. Then Indonesia.

    Seriously, however, presuming the Europeans can't pull it together the US probably has 3rd largest monocultural population and possibly higher. We have the 3rd largest raw population. We are easily the largest industriallized country (well, depending on how you consider China and India) with Russia and Japan 150 M and 175 M people behind us. At this point the only likely contenders for the global front runner position are China, Japan and a united Europe. Good news for us I guess, particularly considering our horrific trade imballance.

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    I'm told the US constitution can be fitted onto two sides of A4 paper.

    Even supporters of the EU constitution seem unable to say what it contains in its hundreds of pages.

    No wonder the voters of France and Holland decided to give their politicians a good kicking.
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  9. #9
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Pete, what is it about the EU Constitution that you think would lead to a stronger European economy?
    Imagine each of the United States existing as independent nations: maintaining independent militaries, independent governmental bodies for administering commerce, and having to ratify individual courses of action as they arose by arguing them out in each state's legislature... It seems clear to me that the European community would benefit by ratifying a stronger union- if only to accomplish less duplication of bueracracy (sp?)!

    And look at their foreign policy! Quite frankly, regardless of what W likes to say about the allies, the US can live with or without the cooperation of any single European country. France won't play along? Heck, we'll just count on the Brits to give us some legitimacy by "not going it alone" (and I applaud the British government for their assistance). In other words, the single voices of France, Germany, etc. are pretty much just lost in the wind. The unified voice of a unified Europe would carry a bit more weight. In effect, we'd have to cater to the Russians, Chinese, Aussies, or Japanese when we needed an outside partner if we couldn't convince the EU to cooperate.

    Reality has changed- Europe in general is a common commercial entity, whether they really feel like realizing it or not. Additionally, with the end of the Cold War, America is not going to continue to prop up the European economy (which is what we did during the Cold War as we used Western Europe as our buffer against the Iron Curtain). No offense intended, but America pumped a lot of its manufacturing to Europe during the Cold War (and lost a lot without choice to China, Mexico, the Philippines, etc.). Part of the dollar's recent "weakness" is by design- it makes manufacturing in America more attractive.

    In the coming years, the Europeans can look forward to a full-scale economic world war with China, Japan, and bluntly- with the US. My assertion is they will fare much better with more- rather than less- unification. A look at the their factories and labor unions should be sending a clear message to Europeans- you cannot just keep rumbling along like its the 1980s. Auto makers are beginning to tell unions in countries like Germany that layoffs will be occurring- whether they like it or not. The French cannot expect the 35 hour mandated work week to keep most people employed in the future (I think its 35, someone may know better).

    Frankly the economy that is poised to dominate the future (IMO) is the Chinese. They are leveraging the size of their emerging market to demand technological infusion from their trading partners, their government is such that it can control commerce tighter than their trading partners, and their (unrealistic) refusal to adjust their currency helps in the short run.
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
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    Essilor of America

    http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74

  10. #10
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    Eu ratification

    Perhaps France is not interested in a "stronger Europe". Traditionally, a stronger Europe generally meant a stronger Germany or a stronger "other" in general. France has a very healthy scepticism regarding the whole issue of "globalization" in general and feels that her very special culture, traditions and history are being threatened. Whereas we in the U.S have almost universally adopted the mantra of the global village it usually involves imposing ourselves on other cultures. For example, our Hollywood blockbusters have pretty much decimated the delicate French film industry. After all, even in France their subtle, intellectual and thought-provoking films cannot compete with Terminator. Likewise, their agricultural industry was predicated on little family plots producing unique regional specialties. How can this compete with massive American farms that can produce similar (but inferior) products at a far lower cost. By swamping the markets with cheaper but inferior products we are driving the French to emulate this strategy. The end result is that many of the products that were so special and unique to France are disappearing. The French have always enjoyed a fairly easy-going, perhaps lazy, way of life with long vacations and a definite emphasis on quality of life. They now have to compete with American, British and German economies that promote the work ethic and get more productivity out of their employees. A genuine fear of American economic and political imperialism, coupled with an almost hereditary distrust of British and German growing clout are probably contributing factors to the reluctance to give up any of their independence to the EU.

    Ilan

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