Page 1 of 8 123456 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 182

Thread: Four year degree program

  1. #1
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Gold Hill, OR
    Occupation
    Other Optical Manufacturer or Vendor
    Posts
    4,401

    Four year degree program

    I would like to respond to a couple of recent threads that brought up the subject of a four year degree program for Opticians. I graduated from a two year program back in 1969. I have subsequently earned a BS in Computer Science and an MBA in management. I am a proponent of continuing lifelong formal learning. That being said, I have considerable doubts that a four year degree program would improve the professional status or earnings of the dispensing optician. Here are a number of discussion points for your consideration:
    • Is opticianry a profession or a craft?
    • How long does it take to teach the required body on knowledge in an academic environment?
    • Who regulates and determines performance standards us on a national level?
    • Should academic and performance standards be required to practice opticianry?
    • Should all of this discussion be dropped and a free market prevail?
    Today, fewer that 10% ( my educated guess ) of the people performing the duties of opticians have a formal education of any duration, much less two years. Perhaps the first goal should be to bring the great mass of unwashed up to some minimum standard of practice. We did seem to be taking some baby steps in this direction in the mid sixties. However, these efforts suffered a reversal to the point where many feel that today’s “ABO” is a joke – certainly not a high standard that we can be proud of.


    We have no strong organization that is capable of effecting educational or performance standards across the fruited plain much less influencing legislation favorable to opticianry on the national level. At present, we have no uniform standards for the practice opticianry in the USA. Some states regulate it while other states adopt a laissez-faire attitude and there is really not that much difference in wages or performance standards between the states.


    Where will future leadership come from? Should we even bother?

    Dick Baker
    www.aerovisiontech.com

  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC, USA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    2,009

    4-year Degrees

    ...actually are utilized to teach a different level of thought. A person who achieves a Bachelor's Degree will earn (on average) 1 million more over a lifetime than those with high school diplomas. Not because we teach them to dispense or fit contact lenses better than anyone else, but because we teach them higher-level thinking skills. They learn more than technical subjects, and include things like management, critical thinking, communication, the sciences, and a number of other things not taught in most 2-year degree programs. They "round out" the individual and prepare them for more than just providing a technical service. Is Opticianry a profession? I really do not know any more, but I am one who approaches it that way. I want us to be more than we currently are. I hope we can achieve that goal, and I am convinced that through education we can. As to regulation; it is typically done on a state level, not a national one. I think sometime we get too caught up in the state issue. My state is better than your state...........it really does not matter. What does is education and training. Our main problem is we lack common ground. In most professions there is a defined sphere of knowledge one must attain prior to entry into a profession. In Opticianry, that training and education piece varys widely across the country. We must develop some standard of education and training that will prepare us all similarly to achieve any positive development. The free market should not be relied on to produce competent practitioners. Only through education can we advance, and provide the public with excellent Opticians. Back to the earning potential........one does not need a degree to be in most businesses, but the MBA is 25% of all graduate degrees. Education is a good value. For Opticians it should be a requirement.

    Warren

  3. #3
    Bad address email on file
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Windsor, Canada
    Posts
    314
    Dick and Warren:

    I don't agree with a 4 year program for opticianry. Since there is not enough theory to fill 4 years, you are advocating the incorporation of business administration and communications studies. That is the educational equivalent of a "Bic Mac combo." You can't just group studies together to create a degree program.

    Academic opticianry is not a business discipline. It is also not a profession in the usual sense. A lawyer or a physician is a professional because of the 'higher level thinking' and judgment necessary to practice it. Opticianry is more of a skilled trade. Nevertheless, I still think opticianry should be regulated in the same way an electrician must be licensed and regulated.

  4. #4
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kansas City, Kansas, United States
    Occupation
    Lens Manufacturer
    Posts
    3,700
    Since there is not enough theory to fill 4 years
    Warren might be referring to a traditional BA/BS degree with opticianry as a major. This would typically require no more than 50 to 60 credit-hours in ophthalmic science, which you could easily fill if you included lens fabrication and the basics of ocular refraction. (Optometry programs have to fill twice that.) As I mentioned in another thread, there is actually a four-year BLA program in Kansas City for ophthalmic medical technologists. I think the biggest issue though would be the ratio of earning potential to college years, compared to other four-year disciplines.

    Best regards,
    Darryl

  5. #5
    Bad address email on file
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Windsor, Canada
    Posts
    314
    I think where we all agree is that we want opticianry to live long and prosper. My best belief is,

    #1. Opticianry will NEVER give automatic financial success. Unlike some other professions where even the least qualified make a lot of money. Opticians should think of themselves as in the same category as hair stylists. The worst will make minimum wage. The best can make a lot.

    #2. Opticianry's best chance at survival is to focus on the extreme fashion side of the business. This would differentiate opticianry from optometry and offer insurance against commoditization.

  6. #6
    Master OptiBoarder
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC, USA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    2,009

    Higher level thinking.....

    ....is required of Opticians, at least those that are successful. An academic degree usually requires a liberal arts component. For example, a CPA does not take all their classes in accounting. English, Math, Science, etc. are all a part and parcel of the degree requirements. "Academic" Opticianry is typically an Associate Degree today, and the coursework is largely ophthalmic science; the job skills necessary to perform the tasks required of an Optician. But the successful Optician learns (somehow) to communicate and function in the business world. They attempt to trouble-shoot visual problems experinced by patients, although not to the level many think. Most contemporary Opticians have focused too much on the ""fashion" side of the industry and could not find the power of a lens in a given meridian if their life depended on it. how can we truly analyze an Rx if we don't understand optics? We have become folks who are "trained" versus someone who is truly "educated". There is a distinct difference. Opticians need to re-think the direction we take and look more to education to meet our goals. Optometry has done that are are very successful today because of it, and we should model ourselves after them.

  7. #7
    Master OptiBoarder ziggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati,Ohio
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    1,133
    One way to get a four year degree is to combine it with management, marketing, or design. The biggest issue is getting 27 states to see the need for any education requirments. Untill that happens, even a two year degree is a waste.:angry:
    Paul:cheers:

  8. #8
    Master OptiBoarder
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC, USA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    2,009

    The Value of Education

    I must respectfully disagree. Most states do not require a license to sell shoes or cars, but a business degree can be very helpful. Those with a degree are much more successful on average than those without one. Education cannot be measured just in licensed states, and can prove invaluable to anyone. I encourage you to re-think your thesis here, I would be pleased to send you links to hundreds of studies across the country who may be better equipped to change your mind, or you can simply do a google search on the value of education.

  9. #9
    Master OptiBoarder Lee Prewitt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Snoqualmie, WA
    Occupation
    Optical Wholesale Lab (other positions)
    Posts
    691
    I agree with Warren for the most part on this. I think a 4 year degree can be very helpful for new opticians coming out. Jason: You have the benefit of many years of experience and I'm sure a few very hard lessons learned in the field. Now imagine a new optician who has a very solid background in not only optical theory and the skills associated with that but also a great business or marketing background as well. Would you not likely want to hire someone with those skills? You have talked about franchising your concept in other threads. You want those to be successful, right?


    Opticians will never be like electricians. The reason is that electricians have very strict enforcement of the requirements. You must enter an apprenticeship and work towards your license otherwise you don't work. Opticians on the other hand...well we know that answer don't we? I would love a 4 year degree opportunity. I have a 2 year and I am proud of it. Try working in a corporate setting without a 4 year.

    My rant and 2 cents.
    Lee Prewitt, ABOM
    Independent Sales Representative
    AIT Industries
    224 W. James St.
    Bensenville, IL 60106
    Cell : (425) 241-1689
    Phone: (800) 729-1959, Ext 137
    Direct: (630) 274-6136
    Fax: (630) 595-1006
    www.aitindustries.com
    leep@aitindustries.com

    More Than A Patternless Edger Company

  10. #10
    Bad address email on file
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Windsor, Canada
    Posts
    314
    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald
    I want us to be more than we currently are. I hope we can achieve that goal, and I am convinced that through education we can.

    ...Optometry has done that are are very successful today because of it, and we should model ourselves after them.
    Most opticians think the same way you do. Who doesn't want status and esteem? But its a huge mistake to try to emulate optometry. It's already being done too much. That's why the public confuses the two professions. It's nice that you want opticians to be 'more', but it won't help the profession as much as being 'different' from optometrists. The best way to do that is to exploit optometry's weaknesses, not try to beat them at their strengths.


    P.S. If optometry and opticianry both required a 4 year degree, would you really choose opticianry?

  11. #11
    35yroldguy
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Guatemala
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    400
    Today,what are the requirements to be an optometrist?How do those reguirements differ for say 20 years ago?



    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Carruthers
    Most opticians think the same way you do. Who doesn't want status and esteem? But its a huge mistake to try to emulate optometry. It's already being done too much. That's why the public confuses the two professions. It's nice that you want opticians to be 'more', but it won't help the profession as much as being 'different' from optometrists. The best way to do that is to exploit optometry's weaknesses, not try to beat them at their strengths.


    P.S. If optometry and opticianry both required a 4 year degree, would you really choose opticianry?

  12. #12
    35yroldguy
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Guatemala
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    400
    I am a old optician. I have a BA degree and a A.S. in Health optics. Every person should have a good education regardless of what specialty they want.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Prewitt
    I agree with Warren for the most part on this. I think a 4 year degree can be very helpful for new opticians coming out. Jason: You have the benefit of many years of experience and I'm sure a few very hard lessons learned in the field. Now imagine a new optician who has a very solid background in not only optical theory and the skills associated with that but also a great business or marketing background as well. Would you not likely want to hire someone with those skills? You have talked about franchising your concept in other threads. You want those to be successful, right?


    Opticians will never be like electricians. The reason is that electricians have very strict enforcement of the requirements. You must enter an apprenticeship and work towards your license otherwise you don't work. Opticians on the other hand...well we know that answer don't we? I would love a 4 year degree opportunity. I have a 2 year and I am proud of it. Try working in a corporate setting without a 4 year.

    My rant and 2 cents.

  13. #13
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    in Naples FL for the Winter months
    Occupation
    Other Optical Manufacturer or Vendor
    Posts
    23,240
    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker

    That being said, I have considerable doubts that a four year degree program would improve the professional status or earnings of the dispensing optician.
    Dick Baker
    www.aerovisiontech.com
    In Europe opticians actually do learn for 4 years these days. When I did my optics it was 3 years and then increased. I still think that the European system is far superior to the ones on this continent. In order to manage an optical store you even need a masters degree.

    Most decent professions do require proper training and as proof they are handed a diploma as proof of competence.

    Just watch the Luxottica owned optical retail outlets. European owned chain stores situated in Europe employ highly qualified personal with all the degrees needed and more. They are also very successful. One chain in Germany controls 40% of the German market. Some conversion to equalize Luxottica stores to the european system could just about be in the coming and then goodby independent retailers that do not have the diplomas hanging on their walls. The large chains do have the funds to advertise the facts that, (in case it would happen), their stores are being staffed with highly qualified employees.

  14. #14
    What's up? drk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Occupation
    Optometrist
    Posts
    9,385
    Quote Originally Posted by 35oldguy
    Today,what are the requirements to be an optometrist?How do those reguirements differ for say 20 years ago?
    4 yrs. undergrad, 4 yrs. Opt. College. Residencies becoming more common. Same thing 20 yrs ago. Now, 35-40 yrs ago, it was a 6-yr program.

    I'm an outsider on this topic. I do think that opticianry has different levels. A dispensing optician would not necessarily need the full college education to succeed. A 2-yr intense program would be sufficient, probably. But master opticans would definitely need another 1-2 yrs. Master opticians would be the lens designers, lab owners and managers, i.e., those that have to know all that there is. Math and physics (optics) are required, and that's pretty serious stuff.

  15. #15
    What's up? drk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Occupation
    Optometrist
    Posts
    9,385
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser
    In Europe opticians actually do learn for 4 years these days. When I did my optics it was 3 years and then increased. I still think that the European system is far superior to the ones on this continent. In order to manage an optical store you even need a masters degree.

    Most decent professions do require proper training and as proof they are handed a diploma as proof of competence.

    Just watch the Luxottica owned optical retail outlets. European owned chain stores situated in Europe employ highly qualified personal with all the degrees needed and more. They are also very successful. One chain in Germany controls 40% of the German market. Some conversion to equalize Luxottica stores to the european system could just about be in the coming and then goodby independent retailers that do not have the diplomas hanging on their walls. The large chains do have the funds to advertise the facts that, (in case it would happen), their stores are being staffed with highly qualified employees.
    Yeah, and they probably get paid a "pretty deutschmark", too. In the US/Canada, maybe not!

  16. #16
    35yroldguy
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Guatemala
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    400
    Funny. My uncle got only a 4th grade education. He was in construction in the 40's and 50's in California. Self-made man he was. Made lots of money. Putting restricitions on different occupations does say what the successes of failures that person will have throughout the carreer of that individual.

    Still an education is very beneficial. Some folks just have lots of brains and some others know what just plain hard work is! You do not always get something for nothing!

    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    4 yrs. undergrad, 4 yrs. Opt. College. Residencies becoming more common. Same thing 20 yrs ago. Now, 35-40 yrs ago, it was a 6-yr program.

    I'm an outsider on this topic. I do think that opticianry has different levels. A dispensing optician would not necessarily need the full college education to succeed. A 2-yr intense program would be sufficient, probably. But master opticans would definitely need another 1-2 yrs. Master opticians would be the lens designers, lab owners and managers, i.e., those that have to know all that there is. Math and physics (optics) are required, and that's pretty serious stuff.

  17. #17
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kansas City, Kansas, United States
    Occupation
    Lens Manufacturer
    Posts
    3,700
    Just a couple of points:

    1. In all fairness, and to further extend Warren's point, a 2-year AAS degree in opticianry will get you a job as an optician. But a 4-year BA degree in opticianry would get you any job that is looking for someone with a "college degree." Look through a typical Classifieds section. While many employers are obviously looking for a degree in a particular discipline, just as many don't care about the specific degree -- they just want to know that you are a college-educated adult. Consequently, I think it would open more doors for you.

    2. That said, unfortunately, college degree programs in opticianry have generally not fared well. Many of the two-year programs are struggling, many have already folded. This reflects my belief that we're seeing more and more non-career opticians entering the field. Most practicing opticians today have had virtually no preparation in ophthalmic technology before working in the field, and their employers very rarely require it. This undermines the traditional "college" paradigm, which generally requires completing your education before pursuing your career. Given this low demand, you are unlikely to see many four-year programs.

    Best regards,
    Darryl

  18. #18
    Master OptiBoarder
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC, USA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    2,009

    Sad but true, Darrell

    A 4-year degree is a goal, however. DRK is correct in his assertion that there are levels. We need to look at it that way, and I have said so many times before. I see a place for Opticians to serve in a mid-level practice role much like Nurse Practiitioners or PAs. It can happen if we recognize education for its intrinsic value and move ahead. We will not gain higher income or status overnight....it will be slow, but it will happen eventually if we just try. As you indicate, a degree is beneficial. Unfortunately, some in Opticianry seem to continue to fight the concept. People come now to find a job, not a profession. Someone said the chains would not allow us to move ahead.....I don't blame them, and quite frankly I wasn't intending to ask. They want to minimize payroll as much as any businessperson, but the same chains hire Pharmacists at 90k a year. They saw the need to expand education and move ahead, and we can to....but an education is a prerequisite.

  19. #19
    Rising Star
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Tennessee
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    267
    This is an extremely interesting and timely topic. As most of you know, Dr. McDonald and I have been outspoken advocates of formal education for opticians. With that said, you also know the personal and professional price we have both paid for that position. When the concept of a formal educational component for the apprentice optician was suggested in this state, the Tennessee Dispensing Opticians Association fought the idea through every venue and at every juncture. When the idea went down in flames and the OAA adopted the concept of minimum educational standards based on the Tennessee model, this state society was the only one to oppose it on a national level. When defending their opposition to education one of the state leaders told me “all you’re trying to do is keep a lot of good people out of opticianry.” Is the Tennessee society somehow different? Not really. They just lacked finesse in their defense of ignorance.

    Is it possible for an optician to learn all their job skills by hanging out at the workplace for a few years? It certainly is! It’s also possible for nurses, physical therapists, dentists, and podiatrists to do the same since you certainly don’t need to go to college to empty a bedpan, bend an arm, pull a tooth, or fit an insole. What makes opticianry unique is that it is the only health related area that I can think of that has consistently rejected the educational model and demanded that their scope of practice remain firmly rooted in the 1940’s model. Without the ubiquitous college degrees of other fields, we remain relegated to bending frames, taking a PD, arguing over seg height, and polishing the skill necessary to sell the second pair.

  20. #20
    Master OptiBoarder Lee Prewitt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Snoqualmie, WA
    Occupation
    Optical Wholesale Lab (other positions)
    Posts
    691
    You are so right. Take this a step further (actually lower) What allied health position does not require at least a 2 year program? X-ray? Nope. Dental hygenist? Nope. Physical Therapist? Nope again. Optician? Sure, you are eager/cute/articulate/enter own adjective etc. I can't believe that TN would fight such a thing. WA is looking at requiring a 2 year degree to get your license but the time reference is like 10 years down the road!! Grandfather all existing people in, up the CE standards, and all new people need 2 year degree minimum. I don't get it.
    Lee Prewitt, ABOM
    Independent Sales Representative
    AIT Industries
    224 W. James St.
    Bensenville, IL 60106
    Cell : (425) 241-1689
    Phone: (800) 729-1959, Ext 137
    Direct: (630) 274-6136
    Fax: (630) 595-1006
    www.aitindustries.com
    leep@aitindustries.com

    More Than A Patternless Edger Company

  21. #21
    35yroldguy
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Guatemala
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    400
    That is what optometry did a long time ago. Look where they are now!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Prewitt
    You are so right. Take this a step further (actually lower) What allied health position does not require at least a 2 year program? X-ray? Nope. Dental hygenist? Nope. Physical Therapist? Nope again. Optician? Sure, you are eager/cute/articulate/enter own adjective etc. I can't believe that TN would fight such a thing. WA is looking at requiring a 2 year degree to get your license but the time reference is like 10 years down the road!! Grandfather all existing people in, up the CE standards, and all new people need 2 year degree minimum. I don't get it.

  22. #22
    Bad address email on file
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    colorado
    Posts
    73
    The idea of a four year degree seems so unbelievable to me, especially in the state that I live in you can be stocking shelves one day and the optical store manager the next day. And I have gone into some of the stores to eaves drop on the opticians and I am truly impressed with some of the replies they come up for customer complaints and questions. It would be nice to see ANY required schooling for opticianary.

  23. #23
    Master OptiBoarder
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC, USA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    2,009

    Unbelieveable?

    I also have heard some excellent sounding comments from Opticians all across the country who consider themselves quite accomplished. But I also see them in CE lectures trying to learn even the simplest optical concepts. I agree Opticians can learn a great deal without a degree, but it simply amazes me to see this continual questioning of the need for education. Do you like those untrained folks doing what it is you do? I certainly don't and want us to be better. What possible problem do you h ave with that concept!!!!!! And by the way, the correct spelling is OPTICIANRY............

  24. #24
    Underemployed Genius Jacqui's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Frostbite Falls, Mn.
    Occupation
    Optical Wholesale Lab (other positions)
    Posts
    7,417
    As I said in another thread, I'm all for a 4 year optician degree. My own degrees are BSIE, BSIT, BSN, will finish my MBA this summer and may finish my MSN in Ophthalmic Nursing.
    Last edited by Jacqui; 05-18-2005 at 01:50 PM. Reason: Spelling

  25. #25
    OptiBoard Novice
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Prewitt
    I agree with Warren for the most part on this. I think a 4 year degree can be very helpful for new opticians coming out. Jason: You have the benefit of many years of experience and I'm sure a few very hard lessons learned in the field. Now imagine a new optician who has a very solid background in not only optical theory and the skills associated with that but also a great business or marketing background as well. Would you not likely want to hire someone with those skills? You have talked about franchising your concept in other threads. You want those to be successful, right?
    It seems obvious that most opticians who take pride in their profession would approve of a 4 year education opportunity, yet the fact remains that today such a program is not available. How can new opicians who genuinely want opticianry to be their career improve on what education they do have? I am new to the field, with only about 6 months experience under my belt. There are no formal education programs in my area, and the optician who was training me recently changed jobs. How do I improve? What do I teach myself? If no formal education is available, how does a new optician advance in their knowledge?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. 1 year Opticianry program anywhere??
    By Nada in forum Professional and Educational Organizations Discussion Forum
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 01-19-2007, 06:28 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-09-2005, 06:38 PM
  3. Toledo Optical Named Transitions 2003 Lab Of The Year
    By Newsroom in forum Optical Industry News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-05-2004, 10:56 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-18-2003, 06:34 PM
  5. 21st Century Optics Named Transitions 2002 Lab Of The Year
    By Newsroom in forum Optical Industry News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-24-2003, 01:00 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •