Four year degree program

[chip anderson]

Wm: Don't know about horses, but it's never a problem to lead an optician to drink. If you don't the business will.

[wmcdonald]

Thanks for the humor! It is almost 5:00.........

Warren

[Jason Carruthers]

Just want to clarify your stance.

Opticians can and should move into new areas that can and will be exciting for them. If all they are to do is measure PDs and take seg heights, you are correct. To advance an education is required. I am and always will be proud to be an Optician. Education has opened up many doors for me and I want my peers to be able to experience the same opportunities. But......you can lead a horse to water....the drinking part you cannot make them do. I believe if we had stronger requirements, we would draw higher calibre folks. We will never be extinct!

It sounds like you're saying that if opticians stay in their current roles of dispensing, then you agree with me that a 4 year degree requirement will cause extinction. If so, that's exactly what I believe.

When you say "move into new areas" I assume you are talking about prescribing? If so, I agree that opticians should move into prescribing glasses, which of course, would require education. But I still think that a 4 year degree is unnecessary.

To all opticians who think people need a 4-year degree to dispense glasses, I have one question. Why are you not optometrists?

[Darryl Meister]

I don't think a degree requirement for opticians will render them extinct, and I believe that many countries in Europe require just that. I also believe that it would, in fact, raise the quality of patient care and elevate opticianry as a career choice. That said, I think it is very unlikely that we will ever see a degree requirement for ophthalmic dispensing in the United States.

And, frankly, I think a 4-year degree program in opticianry would be a very hard sell at this point. After all, there is no requirement for even a 2-year degree, and many of the 2-year programs have also experienced poor attendance figures over the past two decades (several have closed). I couldn't imagine a significant number of individuals applying to a 4-year program. Unfortunately, many opticians just "end up" in this field; they seldom make a deliberate career choice that requries a significant investment in time and cost (and a college program requires both).

However, I think a 2-year degree requirement would have been a very sensible approach, and a 2-year program could certainly cover the vast majority of what a dispensing optician and contact lens fitter should know. But, again, I wonder if we haven't already let this occupation slide too far to ever achieve any real minimum education standards.

[35oldguy]

Maybe it is boring! Being an optician you deal with that customer from a different perspective and it is more exciting! Can you imagine saying over and over again "is this better or is that better"!

Just want to clarify your stance.It sounds like you're saying that if opticians stay in their current roles of dispensing, then you agree with me that a 4 year degree requirement will cause extinction. If so, that's exactly what I believe.

When you say "move into new areas" I assume you are talking about prescribing? If so, I agree that opticians should move into prescribing glasses, which of course, would require education. But I still think that a 4 year degree is unnecessary.

To all opticians who think people need a 4-year degree to dispense glasses, I have one question. Why are you not optometrists?

[35oldguy]

Darryl:

Since you live in KC I wonder if you remember the program put on by the Harmons for opticians. I do not remember but there was another person and Harmon that gave this study course that helped them pass the ABO. Help I do not remeber the details but if you can let me know.

Most opticians this is the way they passed the ABO before they watered it down. These were people that studied after work to get some type of recognition. They were proud to put this certificate on the wall to show to their customers that they were qualified.

This study course was the only way many opticians could get their certificate. In Kansas at one time there was only 4 opticians that had 2 year degrees from a accredited optical school. The optical school that I think all four of us went to was Ferris State in Michigan and it has closed.

The need for educated opticians is necessary! It should be mandatory to have at least a two year program.

I don't think a degree requirement for opticians will render them extinct, and I believe that many countries in Europe require just that. I also believe that it would, in fact, raise the quality of patient care and elevate opticianry as a career choice. That said, I think it is very unlikely that we will ever see a degree requirement for ophthalmic dispensing in the United States.

And, frankly, I think a 4-year degree program in opticianry would be a very hard sell at this point. After all, there is no requirement for even a 2-year degree, and many of the 2-year programs have also experienced poor attendance figures over the past two decades (several have closed). I couldn't imagine a significant number of individuals applying to a 4-year program. Unfortunately, many opticians just "end up" in this field; they seldom make a deliberate career choice that requries a significant investment in time and cost (and a college program requires both).

However, I think a 2-year degree requirement would have been a very sensible approach, and a 2-year program could certainly cover the vast majority of what a dispensing optician and contact lens fitter should know. But, again, I wonder if we haven't already let this occupation slide too far to ever achieve any real minimum education standards.

[Lynne]

We unfortunately have lost the schools Ed mentions, but all is not lost. There are many schools doing fine and growing, and in fact new programs as well. University of Arkansas Mountain Home has a new program that is Internet-based, as does Vermont and Hawaii. We lose a few and gain a few. The whole point is this; moving from state to state as Chris has mentioned will be easy wheh we have some common ground. If an Optician in NC and an Optician in California are similarly trained it will be easier to transport a license. Then legislation can come, much like Optometry is doing currently. Education is the key.

I wasn't aware of the internet school in Hawaii, we were under the impression that there were no schools for opticianry at all in Hawaii. Failed to find it with a Google, do you have the web address? Would be great if they do NCLE CE's too!! :)

In fact all our Optometrists and Pharmacists have to go to the mainland for training..... :( Only Oahu has a 4 yr school, at UH, and the neighbour islands have 2 yr Community Colleges, altho I think that Hilo on the Big Island does have some 4 yr programmes. Our Governor is pushing for a 4yr school on all the islands, but I guess the cost is too prohibitive.

For the Hawaii State License you have to obtain, and maintain, just the ABO and NCLE, simply because they don't have any educational entities instate. Welcome to the Islands!! Sure is nice here though! Anyone want to move over and start schools? :idea: On Maui only 11 State Licensed people, according to the State Website for Vocational Licensing a few months ago!! The more education the better, keeps the old grey cells in motion instead of coagulating!

[Darryl Meister]

Since you live in KC I wonder if you remember the program put on by the Harmons for opticians.

No, but I've only lived in Kansas City for about 4 years.

[Jason Carruthers]

Maybe it is boring! Being an optician you deal with that customer from a different perspective and it is more exciting! Can you imagine saying over and over again "is this better or is that better"!

You're right, Old Guy. But isn't that what opticians want anyway, to refract?

[Alvaro Cordova]

This is my take on the whole deal. I believe in education very strongly. I think that opticians should have at least an AAS in Ophthalmics. I think that a 4 year program should be introduced and have the 2 year phased out eventually. I know that there is plenty of material ranging from business, management to lens designing, fabrication and, of course, optics. I'm the type who wants to become better at what I do. From the sound of it, I'm not alone. Opticians are not a dying breed and opticianry is not a dying field. I know that the past few years have been bad though, but I see much change at least where I'm at. The crop of students taking the test mostly have BS degrees in various fields and have opted for the AAS in Ophthalmics. More importantly, many understand or are coming to understand the political nature of opticianry and are getting involved with their national and State organizations. The use of modern technology such as the internet (Optiboard for example :) ) are connecting people in ways that make them more aware of the plight to do something about what opticianry is going through. I'm really thinking that we're going to get over the slump real soon.

[jediron1]

Jason Carruthers
If opticianry required a degree, opticians would become extinct. Some candidates would be unable or unwilling to obtain a degree. The rest would become optometrists.[/QUOTE]


I don't know about extinct, but some in other states would drop out. All I can say from experience in N.Y. state is that it once was a proud state with the tuffest exam in Optical. Now it's just the MICKEY MOUSE ABO. H_LL when I took the N.Y. exam in 1973 we had 4 and half days of testing with every day of two tests, one in the morning and one in the afternoon with one day being Anatomy and Physiology and another day being the brutal Geometric Optics exam.

[HarryChiling]

So many points to discuss can't put my thoughts together.

In Maryland optometrists just got a steroid bill passed. They are trying to move into the pathology. As opticians we get nothing. We have no friends, we have no money, but we have numbers.

Numbers is where our strength lies.

What if our societys were to go non-profit and focus on getting more members to vote on issues and trying to bring about legislation and organize the numbers?

What if opticians had a union organize our numbers?

What if opticians created a lobbying group (nationally) use funding by our numbers?

If you want to get educated learn politics and the art of deception. Our field has been being played by both sides ODs and OMDs. I have never had an OD or OMD disagree with licensure, education, and credibility in our proffesion. However, that is what their lobbyists and money thrown at congress does.

Forget about education and national licensure this is the end game, it begins by organizing and rallying our cause. I for one would like to see a union or national lobbying group. I for one would donate $20-$50 a month for someone willing to fight on my behalf. This would have more impact on our carrer than trying to get education. The education will trickle down.

If opticians were to start fighting for more rights (fitting CL nationally, Refracting, ...). If these were the things we were fighting for naturally then the ODs and OMDs would bring the issue that our lack of education is what prevents that. This creates a need for the opticianry schools and the education, in turn craetes more demand for opticianry programs and schools then in turn validating our arguments to be allowed the rights.

We need to stride towards small goals and victories now with hope of creating momentum to attain our larger goals in the future.

[wmcdonald]

Harry,
The reason Opticians fight is that they have little invested. In many ststes, Opticians earn a great living for their educational level, which is none. I know many states where Opticians earn more that teachers, all with 4-year degrees; in fact most. No one isuggesting folks must go back to school, just that we need to make future Opticians better! Before we can have a feasible organization we must have common ground, and the ONLY way I can see to achieve that goal is through the training and education process. Canada is different. You actually have higher standards the we in the US. In many states here a hambergurger sales person can go to work as an Optician with no training at all. It is ridiculous. We are beyond the small goal approach you suggest, and moving rapidly to losing more ground. We need to start building competent practitioners who possess optical knowledge, not just sales clerks. There is a post that says that women make better Opticians than men. The first post says he likes to hire women because they (an I paraphrase from memory) are better sales people. That is bulll, and I want Opticians to move ahead. Refraction is but one thing we can do beyond asking Mrs. Jones if she like the blue or red frame best.

[Judy Canty]

I wasn't aware of the internet school in Hawaii, we were under the impression that there were no schools for opticianry at all in Hawaii. Failed to find it with a Google, do you have the web address? Would be great if they do NCLE CE's too!! :)

Check the NFOS (www.nfos.org) website for the information on Leeward.

[Judy Canty]

Harry,

That's what OAM and OAA are trying to do. Are you a member of either organization?

[jediron1]

So many points to discuss can't put my thoughts together.

Forget about education and national licensure this is the end game, it begins by organizing and rallying our cause. I for one would like to see a union or national lobbying group. I for one would donate $20-$50 a month for someone willing to fight on my behalf. This would have more impact on our carrer than trying to get education. The education will trickle down.

If opticians were to start fighting for more rights (fitting CL nationally, Refracting, ...). If these were the things we were fighting for naturally then the ODs and OMDs would bring the issue that our lack of education is what prevents that. This creates a need for the opticianry schools and the education, in turn craetes more demand for opticianry programs and schools then in turn validating our arguments to be allowed the rights.

We need to stride towards small goals and victories now with hope of creating momentum to attain our larger goals in the future.

I condensed your remarks. MCD and I have had this argument for a while. In N.Y. state ( if you read my post above ) we had one of the tuffest exams in the nation. Then one day the large chains thought that if we can get N.Y. to change it's licensing laws we can hire more Opticains at a lower rate. We fought that fight for almost six months and lost, I didn't notice anyone from any other state coming to help us when we needed it, they all sat back and said lets watch and see where N.Y. goes. ( We went to the MICKEY MOUSE ABO ) It would have been nice to have help from states like Florida where now licensing laws are tuffer, but they didn't. MCD is living in a fantasy world, you will never get all the Opticains together because each state has there own agenda and they won't band together because there are also many differences between states and regulations in each state. I believe it's 23 states have licensing and the others could care less. They ( Opticains ) make a decent wage so they don't want to rock the boat. Just my 2 cents

[OPTIDONN]

ok I just joined the Opticians Association of Illinois and will join the OAA but what exactly can I do to help advance the field? Is there anything?

[wmcdonald]

is correct. My argument is the we need education to advance, and research indicates the field is ready for it. If we cannot get together we may as well disband completely and forget about it. I am not arguing with you, just stating my opinion. I want Opticians to move ahead, and you appear to have given up. I am deeply sorry for you, and wish the best, but I will continue to fight to upgrade my profession as long as I can. It gets tough, but every now and then I get an email from someone who says thanks. That makes it worth the effort. So, I may be living in a fantsy world, but I often look back on some of the fathers of early Optometry. I am modeling my plan after their efforts. Do you have a plan, or are you only able to post negative comments about others. Do something proactie for a change if you can!

[Judy Canty]

ok I just joined the Opticians Association of Illinois and will join the OAA but what exactly can I do to help advance the field? Is there anything?

There sure is....become ACTIVE! Join committees, attend board meetings, make your voice heard, and of course recruit more active members. Remember...strength in numbers.

[Alvaro Cordova]

I condensed your remarks. MCD and I have had this argument for a while. In N.Y. state ( if you read my post above ) we had one of the tuffest exams in the nation. Then one day the large chains thought that if we can get N.Y. to change it's licensing laws we can hire more Opticains at a lower rate. We fought that fight for almost six months and lost, I didn't notice anyone from any other state coming to help us when we needed it, they all sat back and said lets watch and see where N.Y. goes. ( We went to the MICKEY MOUSE ABO ) It would have been nice to have help from states like Florida where now licensing laws are tuffer, but they didn't. MCD is living in a fantasy world, you will never get all the Opticains together because each state has there own agenda and they won't band together because there are also many differences between states and regulations in each state. I believe it's 23 states have licensing and the others could care less. They ( Opticains ) make a decent wage so they don't want to rock the boat. Just my 2 cents

Well, my site is about this. This is the reason I made my site. The more members I get, the more pressure we all can put on legislatures and governors. I think of my site as a union without the union dues. I created my website out of the paranoia that licensure can be taken away. I would urge anyone especially if you belong to your State organization to join my site and post whatver help you need should some type of attack come up.

[Alvaro Cordova]

Oh, any studies on education and opticianry would be appreciated. I found one on the NFOS website.

[Judy Canty]

They ( Opticains ) make a decent wage so they don't want to rock the boat.

But why be satisfied with a "decent wage" when we're worth so much more? Opticians have allowed everyone else in the field to define who we are and what we're worth. It's time to educate and legislate, just like Optometry has done for the past few decades. Websites alone won't get it done, education alone won't either. We need strong state and national organizations and an equally strong commitment to college-level education to move forward.

While I'm at it, remember that our national organizations appoint the members of the ABO/NCLE and if you're not an ACTIVE member of any of them, you have NO voice in how the exam looks.

[Alvaro Cordova]

ok I just joined the Opticians Association of Illinois and will join the OAA but what exactly can I do to help advance the field? Is there anything?

What is needed from all optcians is perseverence. Many get frustrated, So basically expect things to move slowly at times. That is the way legislatures move so try not to get too frustrated and make the erroneous conclusion that "nothing is happening." Whenever something comes up, send letters to the OAI to do something and of course you start writing letters, maybe even pay your legislative body/governor a visit. Be as proactive as possible. For example I'm writing letters now to gauge where most of the legislature in NJ feel about education and licensure.

[Alvaro Cordova]

But why be satisfied with a "decent wage" when we're worth so much more? Opticians have allowed everyone else in the field to define who we are and what we're worth. It's time to educate and legislate, just like Optometry has done for the past few decades. Websites alone won't get it done, education alone won't either. We need strong state and national organizations and an equally strong commitment to college-level education to move forward.

Websites would really be more for mobilization, disemination of information and education to both opticians and non-opticial related fields. So your right, that they alone can't really do anything per se, but it is the fact that one can mobilize on an issue that is of most benefit.

[wmcdonald]

We cannot win in the legislature. We have no funds to fight and what do we argue? What is the plan? What do you want your organizations to do? Legislatuve folks will never support a profession with no educational requirements, and very little common ground. Do you want more contact lenses? Do you want to support refraction? Or do you just want a license to have one and elevate salaries? Licensure is a dead issue until we plan for the future. Education must precede legislation, as Optometry has shown us.