I went to check out a new optical shop (mainland China) to see what product they were carrying (occupational habit). Almost all their Safilo ophthalmics (Dior, Gucci, Polo, Ralph Lauren, YSL, Burberry, Armani) said "Made in Japan". It seemed a fair amount of the product was titanium and looked great. Does anyone know if Safilo manufactures out of Japan or is this likely bogus product?
Not that I will cry if it is copied because I have my own gripes with Safilo.
Doc
I'll take the Japanese titanium version any day.
drk,
I have to tell you it really looked great, especially the Dior product, but I do want to know if it is real Safilo product. The colors and quality were something else.
I would have taken some photos but taking photos of businesses, buildings, etc in China is a no no.
Doc
All of my Diors are made in Italy. None that I have are titanium.
Doc, go back to the store and ask them for prices............that should give you an indication if they went from Japan to Italy and then to China. Everybody ads a little to the cost so they should have a decent chinese selling price or be expensive.Originally Posted by DocInChina
DocInChina,
All Dior, Gucci, Polo, Ralph Lauren, YSL, Burberry, and Armani frames are marked "Frame Italy" in the US. I would be very suspicious due to China's propensity towards patent and copyright infringement.
Regards,
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman
Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.
Chris,
I should have mentioned the prices earlier...they were the same retail prices as we would have charged in US. The shop I went into is part of a large national eyeglass chain in China.
The quality of the shops in China, at least the bigger cities, has dramatically improved over the years that I have been here. The real estate prices are comparable to big cities in the US but obviously the labor costs are significantly different. The product looks great in alot of shops but hard to know for sure if they are selling real product. In any case it seems some of these companies are making money here.
Doc
This is a requirement for the USA only. In Canada for examples the requirement is for example "Made in China".
This does absolutely not mean that it is so. If frames go from China to Italy and a final eassmbly is done there they becone an Italian product.
Almost right Chris,
A frame must go through a major change to be stamped made in Italy.
Ex. If the frame is made in china and painted in Italy = Made in Italy. If it is just put together in Italy that is not legal. (But I'm sure it is done anyway)
Also I believe sunglasses can be made in China and if the lenses are made in Italy and put in in Italy = Made in Italy
This sounds kind of strange to me. If they were Knock Offs they would put made in Italy on them. They would already be breaking the law anyway. This is a strange one.
It seems the Safilo product labled "Made in Japan" is in fact Made in Japan and is real. I would love to tell everyone what a mess the situation is in China with brand names, licenses, etc. The truth of the matter is it does not exist in any way, shape of form. Whoever registered the name first owns the name in China...period. Despite the WTO affording protection to product names/brand names that are sold in at least 5 WTO member countries, this protection ceases to exist in China. As a matter of fact, if the worldwide authorized owner of the brand tries to sell in China, they can be closed down by the company that is registered in mainland China having rights to that name.
This reminds me of the internet 5+ years ago when people would park domain names.
Doc
DocInChina: "It seems the Safilo product labled "Made in Japan" is in fact Made in Japan and is real."
Doc, thanks for the follow-up research.
My understanding is that 45% of Safilo production is from Safilo's Italian factories, 15% from a Safilo factory in Slovenia and 40% from Asia. I'm not at 100% confidence but am fairly certain on this data. (It is from public info albeit not easy to find. Non-Safilo sources in the Italian optical business have indicated these are reasonable numbers. Does not make it correct of course.)
Much of the Asian production is out-sourced in China but Safilo does hold an ownership stake in one large China factory - Elegance International, who is a major producer for them. I had been unaware of the Japan source. I had guessed that all of the 40% was China. Doc - any idea who it is in Japan?
The claim of mis-marking is not uncommon. There certainly are illegally marked frames sold in the US. The rules re substantial transformation are complex however and the portion with illegal markings are far less than many believe. US Customs will follow up on claims of mis-marking. If anyone believes you know of a case, let them know. There is significant political pressure on US Customs to police the issue.
As we think about Safilo's mix by country of origin marking it is easy to infer cheating - certainly 40% of the Safilo product most of us see is not marked China. It is important to realize that most of us only see the minority side of Safilo. Rx frames only produced 46% of their sales last year. The growth of sunglasses has been very large for all the big players. The magnitude of the change is somewhat hidden from the traditional Rx optical world. Also only 35% of Safilo sales are in North America. If the Rx mix is constant geographically, only 16% of Safilo's sales are Rx frames in North America. That group is likely a very high % truly made in Italy.
It is natural to hate the big guys but it is more likely the small guys that cheat on country of origin markings. At the LUX and Safilo level they likely follow the law. They are too visible and have too much to lose. Too many people from small and mid size competitors, raw material suppliers and equipment folks visit frame factories around the world on a daily basis and they all talk to one another. If the big guys were cheating, someone would nail them. Actually LUX and Safilo tend to be victims of copies and are on the side taking action against cheaters.
Afraid not. I do know about Elegance Eyewear but did not know Safilo owned some of that company. I do know (from the Safilo website) that Elegance owns 25% of the Safilo China company.
I hope I did not come across hating Safilo...I do not. I was just trying to point out how backward China is with regards to international business practices.
Doc
...and yet we're big trading partners with China...:angry:
I would complain too but, um...my company is registered in China.
Doc
DocInChina: "I hope I did not come across hating Safilo...I do not."
You did not but others have implied mis-marking by the large Italian firms. Interesting that no one cites specifics nor mentions telling US Customs.
DocInChina: "I do know about Elegance Eyewear but did not know Safilo owned some of that company."
Safilo owns 23% of Elegance. Elegance's annual report is not out yet (March fiscal year, I think), so the last data I saw is old. It showed 46% of Elegance's production went to Safilo. It's likely to be approaching 60% now.
DocInChina: "I was just trying to point out how backward China is with regards to international business practices."
There is a glass half empty, half full issue. China is backwards but relative to where things were only 20 years ago, amazing progress has been made. Relative to the industrialization process in the US, overall China has evolved comparably and in some respects faster. Duly noted that in some respects they lag behind the US's historical evolution. The rate of change there is accelerating and in the right directions. They have further to go and they acknowledge it.
drk: "and yet we're big trading partners with China... :angry: "
If it troubles you, don't buy made in China product and if you suspect mis-marking inform US Customs.
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