House is passing the bill to resume feeding her http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7212079/ Bush says he will sign it. They may start feeding her again tomorrow :)
House is passing the bill to resume feeding her http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7212079/ Bush says he will sign it. They may start feeding her again tomorrow :)
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html
"When Hemingway put his brains to the wall with a shotgun, that was style."
- Charles Bukowski
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman
Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.
Robert,
Are you agreeing with the statement that putting "brains to the wall with a shotgun" shows style? Also, are you likening the removal of a feeding tube to shooting someone with a shotgun?
Are you agreeing with the statement that putting "brains to the wall with a shotgun" shows style?
Yes. He picked his time and place, as coldhearted as it sounds.
Also, are you likening the removal of a feeding tube to shooting someone with a shotgun?
No. Neither am I encouraging suicide. I do believe euthanasia should be legal, if only to keep the ghouls and body snatchers from eating the flesh off the bones of the dying.
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman
Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.
A lot of the same information but from a differant perspective - http://www.terrisfight.net/
Debt Crisis 2011: All the ostensible nobility in the world notwithstanding, we have run out of other people's money to spend.
Kind of like how the Flat Earth Society has a different perspective on the shape of the planet than does a cosmologist.Originally Posted by ksquared
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman
Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.
Since when does Congress have the right to review the judgments of state courts? The SCOTUS refused to hear this case, so Congress decides to make up law as they go along? (Thank God they had time in the midst of the life and death steroids crisis to deal with this!) Good for that Pinellas County judge, he has some cojones and knows the law is on his side.
There was a very interesting article in the NYT about this yesterday. The persceptive was that neurosurgeons and others who work in this field are very hesitant to take the word of family members on the "recovery" of their loved ones, for the obvious reasons. This woman's cerebral cortex is liquifying, the signs of life are reflexes. I'm sure her parents see her eyes open and read cognition into that, as we all associate sentient awareness with open eyes. Unfortunately, we are wrong.
This is a privacy issue, does this woman have the right to say when she wants to die? Does her husband represent her wishes? Over 15 years the Florida courts, with much medical and other testimony have said "yes" to both these questions.
I hope this is a wake up call re how the far religious right is seeking to hi-jack our democracy. Some of their propaganda is unbelievable, e.g. this woman will suffer an agonizing death. When did Florida turn into the gulag? She will be given narcotics as a matter of course, although the physicians agree she is beyond realizing pain.
The hypocrisy here is astonishing: feeding tubes are withdrawn on a regular basis from patients who are in less dire straits than this woman. Bread and circuses.
What bothers me most about this case (I don't follow it that closely) is that Congress has passed a law for her and her only. This will set a precedent for every other case that wants to pull support. Have your medical directive in place now!! Congress has better things to do than legislate for the individual.
Lee Prewitt, ABOM
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What I wanna know.... is why all the righty's are not freaking out over her medicaid coverage?
yeah... Terri is on Medicaid... lots of money being spent to keep her alive.
I cannot believe that we are playing political football with someones life. It's disturbing. Deeply disturbing.
Jana Lewis
ABOC , NCLE
A fine quotation is a diamond on the finger of a man of wit, and a pebble in the hand of a fool.
Joseph Roux
But a differant perspective none the less. After all, how can one reach a sound conclusion without looking at both sides of any issue.Originally Posted by ksquared
A lot of the same information but from a differant perspective - http://www.terrisfight.net/ [/QOTE]
Originally posted by Robert Martellaro
Kind of like how the Flat Earth Society has a different perspective on the shape of the planet than does a cosmologist.
Debt Crisis 2011: All the ostensible nobility in the world notwithstanding, we have run out of other people's money to spend.
I guess that's the crux: it's not the job of the Congress to reach, or act, on a conclusion in these circumstances. And do you really think that after all this time and some 19 judges involved in this, both sides have not been looked at? I think the parents have had their say--clearly the husband has been trying to get the feeding tube removed for years. I believe their complaint is not that they haven't been heard, it's that they haven't won the case.
The natural instinct is to feel sorry for these folks, but at what point does it become about being selfish and putting one's own needs before that of the patient? Let the poor thing go.
Originally posted by Robert Martellaro
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html
Originally Posted by ksquared
A lot of the same information but from a differant perspective - http://www.terrisfight.net/ [/QOTE]
Originally posted by Robert Martellaro
Kind of like how the Flat Earth Society has a different perspective on the shape of the planet than does a cosmologist.
Originally Posted by ksquared
But a differant perspective none the less. After all, how can one reach a sound conclusion without looking at both sides of any issue.
Originally Posted by ksquaredI'm not sure why you are using my post as a basis for your comments. I don't see where I offered an opinion or to share my own conclusions. All I did was post a link with a differant perspective to the one posted by Robert. Do you not think it's important to look at both sides? Or were you just using my post as a spring board for your own conclusions.But a differant perspective none the less. After all, how can one reach a sound conclusion without looking at both sides of any issue.
chm2023 wrote: I guess that's the crux: it's not the job of the Congress to reach, or act, on a conclusion in these circumstances. And do you really think that after all this time and some 19 judges involved in this, both sides have not been looked at? I think the parents have had their say--clearly the husband has been trying to get the feeding tube removed for years. I believe their complaint is not that they haven't been heard, it's that they haven't won the case.
The natural instinct is to feel sorry for these folks, but at what point does it become about being selfish and putting one's own needs before that of the patient? Let the poor thing go.
Debt Crisis 2011: All the ostensible nobility in the world notwithstanding, we have run out of other people's money to spend.
My point, apparently poorly communicated, is that both sides have been amply looked at by the appropriate judiciary. If their conclusion differs from others', fair enough. But its disingenuous in my opinion to suggest (as Congress has)that both sides have not been studied to death (no pun intended).
Thanks for elucidation.My point, apparently poorly communicated, is that both sides have been amply looked at by the appropriate judiciary. If their conclusion differs from others', fair enough. But its disingenuous in my opinion to suggest (as Congress has)that both sides have not been studied to death (no pun intended).
not change the subject but:
Can’t I post on a controversial issue without one of you dissing my poor little reputation? You are more than welcome to disagree with anything I post here. After all, isn’t that what public debate is all about. But I personally prefer a more direct approach (gasp, does this make me a conservative?). If you have issues why not just post them here (openly and honestly) or send a PM. I fail to see where my asking for a clarification was “touchy” but than we’re all entitled to our own opinions. ;)
Debt Crisis 2011: All the ostensible nobility in the world notwithstanding, we have run out of other people's money to spend.
Originally posted by Robert Martellaro
Kind of like how the Flat Earth Society has a different perspective on the shape of the planet than does a cosmologist.
Declaring that the earth is flat is not perspective, it's nonsense. I looked at terrisfight.net and most of what I read was dogma and delusion. Here is their mission statement...
"To cause a change in the guardian laws that bring about a situation like Terri's. Current guardian laws can allow a spouse to have complete control over a loved-one's life and death and can clear the path for euthanasia of that loved-one, against the immediate family's objections."
No, they want the church to make these decisions.
"To aid Terri and her immediate family by providing the resources they need to protect Terri from a court-ordered dehydration and starvation death."
Well, at least they admit that they are ghouls.
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman
Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.
Originally posted by Robert Martellaro
Kind of like how the Flat Earth Society has a different perspective on the shape of the planet than does a cosmologist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksquared
But a differant perspective none the less. After all, how can one reach a sound conclusion without looking at both sides of any issue.Isn't the "family" entitled to have a perspective regarding their own "daughter"? To have their voices heard if you will. Whether you believe it to be nonsense or a delusion, right or wrong, it is still a perspective. I don't see anything in the definition of the word "perspective" that there can be only one (perspective).Robert Martellaro: Declaring that the earth is flat is not perspective, it's nonsense. I looked at terrisfight.net and most of what I read was dogma and delusion. Here is their mission statement...
PERSPECTIVE: noun.A view or vista. A mental view or outlook: “It is useful occasionally to look at the past (earth is flat) to gain a perspective on the present ( earth is round)”.
Last edited by ksquared; 03-22-2005 at 04:33 AM. Reason: added voice heard comment
Debt Crisis 2011: All the ostensible nobility in the world notwithstanding, we have run out of other people's money to spend.
I, for one, am furious that congressmen/women performed this travesty. Her husband was on the Today show this morning and asked a question that I would love answered:
"Why this person and this feeding tube? Hundreds of people have their feeding tubes removed annually and they see fit to fight for this one."
Were the others not worthy? Did they not get enough press? I am a proud republican, but will reevaluate my local republican reps based on their vote on this issue. It is unconscionable that they are interfering in a private family matter.
This is a family issue albeit 2 that don't agree, but who gives the government the right to interfere? No one! Talk about a slippery slope! This one is slimy!:angry:
~Cindy
"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Catherine Aird-
I believe these decisions do not belong in government. They are personal. I was very dismayed this year when I looked closely at a living will and DNR's. I resent the government stepping in or as far as that goes a care giver, parent, or a healthcare worker who can't let go.
I have seen close up those, whose quality of life is not near what they wanted their lives to be. I see the deterioration that Alzheimers brings. The next individual had 4 strokes in three days, confined to bed because of severe osteoporosis and she says this is a terrible life because they are cognitive of what is happening. To not be yourself and to remember who you were before is awful.
My choice, end my life by myself because our country treats animals better than hunmans while I am cognitively ok than to die a tortured death because some one wants to hang on to the remnants of the shell of who I was. The other, if it happens suddenly, DNR.
My husband knows me better than my parents or siblings ever will. That is what becoming a spouse is about. Aren't the words, a man should leave his parents and a woman should leave her home and become one.You discuss these things with your spouse. You very rarely tell your parents simply because they gave you life. To hear that Terry's parents think they are in charge is greatly upsetting to me.
I am very close to my daughter and having had to face a 50/50 chance of survival, in her teens from a severe injury, I made up my mind that if she could not breathe on her own or had a life similar to this case, I would honor her wishes and allow he to pass on. Her advantage was that she was so young and physically fit. She was never the same as before and that was so difficult. She made it and is doing well but it was difficult and still is. She is fortunate to regain alot of things an dbe so disciplined.
In the Schivo case, arm chair quarterbacking by people, medical experts who haven't physically evaluated an individual and records should not be considered. Her parents can't let go and seem to want to control her since she is their daughter and do not want to acknowledge her vows to her husband.
Liberal that I am. Bev
ab
Last edited by marquess; 05-15-2005 at 01:05 AM.
How do you get the country's mind off of a lousy Social Security pseudo-plan, failing Medicare, an unpopular war, high gas prices, high healthcare costs, the widening disparity between rich and poor, etc., etc., etc.?
Focus everybody's attention on Terry Schiavo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
????????
Don't waste your time (or raise your BP) with the reputation comments. Some I have received are beyond belief, apparently a lot of cyber-rage out there!!
At the end of the day, I believe that Ms S will be put to rest, which after all is the only thing of importance here.
Last edited by chm2023; 03-22-2005 at 10:24 AM.
Gleaned from the media circus on this: absent a living will, the law/custom is to look to the spouse, then the adult children, then parents, then siblings.
I have sent all my kids a message asking (well demanding really) that they get this done pronto.
``This court concludes that Theresa Schiavo's life and liberty interests were adequately protected by the extensive process provided in the state courts,'' Whittemore, who held a two-hour hearing yesterday in Tampa, wrote in a 13-page opinion. He said he refused to order the feeding tube reconnected because he didn't see a ``substantial likelihood'' that the Schindlers would ultimately succeed on the merits of their case.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...top_world_news
I think it was happenstance: the parents are unusually persistent (and deluded IMO), and perhaps Jeb Bush (whom I like a lot) saw this as a way to cement his right wing bona fides? The Congressional republicans, led by Tom (middle name ethics) DeLay, saw this as a wedge issue that would benefit them--pro life, pro family etc. (Not that the dems covered themselves in glory either, how 'bout a little political courage folks!) I believe, as illustrated in your post, this is backfiring on them big time. Most folks, dem or rep, lib or con, see this as a cruel intrusion into highly personal matters.
Last edited by chm2023; 03-22-2005 at 11:06 AM.
Originally Posted by chm2023Shocking, just plain shocking…. But thanks for your concern with my BP and my time. I prefer spending a bit of time on those things that are within my control (rep points) as apposed to one area that isn't (what the courts will decide for Ms. S’s). We are in complete agreement on one thing though, may Terri rest in peace.Don't waste your time (or raise your BP) with the reputation comments. Some I have received are beyond belief, apparently a lot of cyber-rage out there!! At the end of the day, I believe that Ms S will be put to rest, which after all is the only thing of importance here.
Cruel intrusion, perhaps. But it did serve its purpose as it brought into focus at the national level one of the most difficult and important controversies facing us today (imo). That’s why, it’s so important that we allow the voices of all sides to be heard, including the extreme fringe groups, left and right, and whether we agree with them or not. There are people being kept alive against their wishes just as there are people who are dying when someone else makes the decision for them if their wishes are not known. As technology increases and our moral compass and values continue to shift, it will not be getting any easier. Decisions we make today will shape the landscape and set the tone for how these life and death decisions are made in the future. For every action there is a consequence, for better or for worse.Originally Posted by chm2023
Most folks, dem or rep, lib or con, see this as a cruel intrusion into highly personal matters.
Last edited by ksquared; 03-28-2005 at 01:21 PM.
Debt Crisis 2011: All the ostensible nobility in the world notwithstanding, we have run out of other people's money to spend.
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