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Thread: A seemingly unique problem

  1. #1
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    Wave A seemingly unique problem

    Hi all! I'm new here, but I joined to pose a question about a problem that has troubled me for years and has elicited only chuckles from every opthamologist I've ever visited.

    Let me start by saying that I'm not the least bit color blind (yes, I'm a guy... I know that's an important factor in this case and hard to tell on a message board :) ). I'm farsighted, but only mildly so at this point. At the age of 45, my mom wears a +7.00 for distance and her eyes started getting bad at the same time in life that mine did (for the record, I'm 27 and have had eye trouble for ten years). Like her, I've been told that I will probably never be able to wear contacts because lens manufacturers don't make contacts for eyes with such flat corneas. I was fitted for some contacts yesterday, and the numbers on them are BC 8.7, DIA 14.0, and +.25 in each eye, and they're still too curved. My glasses are +.75 for distance and I've always been told that I have no discernable astigmatism.

    Please forgive my lack of familiarity with the lexicon of the eye care profession. My degree is in film and I currently work in international tax law. Don't ask.

    Like other hyperopic people, I have problems with eye exams because my eyes still try to accomodate distance vision, though I have to strain to see small details like the craters of the moon, the pinpoint light of stars, or the writing on road signs at night. Even then, I can't do it for more than a few seconds (though it is possible when I try), and doing it for too long gives me headaches.

    So here's my problem - colored lights on dark backgrounds. Every opthamologist I've ever been to has laughed when they heard the following story, and none have wanted to disuss it with me in depth.

    Simply put, I have problems seeing red, orange, yellow and white lights without my glasses. With my glasses on, they come into focus nicely. Conversely, I can see blue, purple and green lights perfectly with my glasses off, but they diffuse into obscurity when I wear any sort of correction.

    Has ANYONE heard of this? So far, noone I've gone to see has, and I'm at my wit's end.

    Let me give a few examples as to how this works in different situations.

    1. Think of a liquor store at night. They usually turn off the inside lights but keep their neon signs illuminated at all hours. Those signs are of many different colors. Without glasses, I can see the blue, purple and green lights (the cool end of the spectrum) at the same time and without difficulty, but red, yellow, orange and white lights (the hot spectrum) will be blurred. When I put my glasses on, I can see the entire hot spectrum at once, but not the cold spectrum. Additionally, I can't focus on the cold spectrum with my glasses on no matter how hard I try. It's not a hyperopic type of blurry that I can accomodate for, but more like a myopic type of blurry that can't be overcome. This example works for any type of backlit or illuminated sign on a dark background (exit signs, road signs, storefront displays, etc.) that's viewed at a distance.

    2. Picture a web page with a black background and with blue and red writing. (Don't you just hate those? ;)) Sitting at normal viewing distance with my glasses on, I can focus on either the hot spectrum or the cold spectrum, but not both at once. Since all near objects are blurry, I have to accomodate quite heavily to see them and don't own any reading glasses (my distance glasses aren't bifocals, though the doctor wanted to give me a +2.50 progressive lens for close vision). On such a web page, when I try to strain my eyes to see the hot spectrum, the cold spectrum goes blurry. When I relax my eyes a bit, the cold spectrum comes into focus and the hot spectrum becomes blurry. Obviously, without my glasses, all near objects are blurry, including the cold spectrum lights on dark backgrounds. But without correction, those cold spectrum lights come into focus when I get a distance of about 20 feet (hot spectrum lights don't come into focus with any sort of distance).

    These don't seem to be common problems, even for my mother with the +7 distance prescription.

    Having done some independent research, I found a nibble that looks promising. But please remember that I don't have any background in this field and I could be completely wrong about the following hypothesis.

    On a totally unrelated website dedicated to viewing colors in crystals with the naked eye, I read that the hot spectrum has a tendency to focus farther back in the eye. Putting two and two together, I realized that this sounded like the nature of hyperopia where the focal point of light is behind the retina. This could explain why these colors blur so badly for me - they're pushed back further behind the retina than the cold spectrum, but can either be brought into focus with correction, or can be accomodated for in the way that hyperopic people can maintain a degree of accomodation even after needing glasses. Conversely, the cold spectrum has a tendency to focus more to the front of the eye, explaining why these colors might be hitting my retina in the perfect place without glasses and why correction pushes them up too far for viewing (creating, in a sense, myopic vision in regard to these colors that I can't accomodate for in the way that myopic people can't accomodate for their poor vision).

    The whopping flaw in my hypothesis is this - why doesn't the above problem affect other people with hyperopia and why has no doctor ever heard of these symptoms before? And why do they just laugh, shrug it off, and act like I'm making it up? :angry:

    I'm absolutely at my wit's end. I guarantee that this story is not a chimerical yarn, but a real problem that gives me serious headaches and a great deal of frustration because I can't get it to go away. Keep in mind that I have absolutely no color blindness... in fact, I have quite the opposite. Colors are beautiful and vibrant for me and I possess an almost inhuman ability to discern the smallest color variations across the entire spectrum (I can easily tell the difference between grass green and olive green, and the difference between black and navy blue is about as stark as that between a giraffe and a 1969 Mini Cooper). When I take color blindness tests, the numbers stand out as plain as if they were black writing on white paper.

    Any insight into the problem would be greatly appreciated. I'm not looking for a diagnosis, but the comfort of knowing that I'm not crazy. Maybe also some hope that my vision CAN be corrected. I want to be armed with information for when I go back to a doctor after my move to New York in June. Maybe if I have information, this problem won't be brushed aside with a chuckle as it has been for the past ten years.

    Many, many thanks in advance!
    Last edited by Terestai; 03-19-2005 at 01:05 PM.

  2. #2
    OptiBoard Professional Ryan's Avatar
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    You lost me at, Hi!

  3. #3
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    Can't help you with your selective spectrum problems. But I can tell you that the "eye care professionals" that you saw and told you that "they don't make contact lenses for such flat corneas" weren't knowledgeable enough to call themselves "eye care professionals." You can make a contact lens from dead flat up. The only eye I ever saw that I couldn't fit because of regular (as oppossed to a few very horrible keratoconnus and a few badly scarred eyes) curvature had tuberculosis of the eye and a pressure so low that the cornea turned concave when I tried to make a mold of it.

    Chip

    See a Contact Lens Society of America member that does nothing but fit contact lenses.

  4. #4
    OptiBoard Professional Ryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    Can't help you with your selective spectrum problems. But I can tell you that the "eye care professionals" that you saw and told you that "they don't make contact lenses for such flat corneas" weren't knowledgeable enough to call themselves "eye care professionals." You can make a contact lens from dead flat up. The only eye I ever saw that I couldn't fit because of regular (as oppossed to a few very horrible keratoconnus and a few badly scarred eyes) curvature had tuberculosis of the eye and a pressure so low that the cornea turned concave when I tried to make a mold of it.

    Chip

    See a Contact Lens Society of America member that does nothing but fit contact lenses.
    Absolutley correct. Good post Chip.

  5. #5
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    One guess, though what you describe seems rather extreme for this effect, would be that you are simply experiencing the effects of the natural chromatic aberration of your eyes. Blue light focuses in front of red light in the human eye, and there is about 0.50 diopters of difference in focus at the extremes of the color spectrum. Imagine that, without your eyeglasses, blue light was being focused very near the retina, which would put the focus of red light behind it. Adding plus power in front of the eye (as your eyeglasses are doing) moves the focal point of each color forward, which in this case would move the blue light off of the retina and move the red light closer to it.

    If this is the case, it suggests that your eyeglass lenses may be over-corrected slightly for distance vision. It also suggests that your own guess wouldn't have been entirely wrong. Coincidentally, refractionists often use this very same effect to refine your eyeglass prescription during an eye exam; it's called a duochrome test. Looking at bright neon signs at night just happens to be your own personal version of it. ;) I should also add that this slight over-correction (if this is indeed the case) may have been intentional, depending upon the goal of your refractionist.

    That said, I've never actually heard of anyone noticing this effect in practice...

    Best regards,
    Darryl

  6. #6
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Nice job Terestai and Daryl.

    It's simple longitudinal chromatic abberation of the eye. OD's (not OMD's) use the bichrome test all the time...

    undercorrected hyperopes see short wavelengths better, overcorrected hyperopes see long wavelengths better.

    You just need to find the right balance.

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    I agree

    I agree with chip, go see a real M.D make sure he or she is ophthalmologist not an O.D (optometrist)
    "Gravitation can't be held responsible for people falling in love"(Einstein)
    "To go no where follow the crowd''

    Arman PourMirza

  8. #8
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arman61
    I agree with chip, go see a real M.D make sure he or she is ophthalmologist not an O.D (optometrist)
    Is this a bad joke?:angry:

    "Every opthamologist I've ever been to has laughed when they heard the following story, and none have wanted to disuss it with me in depth."

    Don't you know how to read? Or, are you referring to the contact lens reference?:hammer:

    Yeah, MD's are renown for their knowledge in optics and CL fitting.

  9. #9
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Dont start the old arguments ................

    Quote Originally Posted by drk

    Is this a bad joke?:angry:
    Let's not get into the old arguments of ophthalmo against optometrist

    Optometrist = a few years of university learning to test vision

    Opthalmologist = a few years of University to learn medicine, then a few years special training in ophthalmology of which at least 80% is medical and surgical.


    Therfore I would trust the optometrist to do a perfect visiual eye exam, but I would not want him to do my cataracts.

    Also I would trust the ophthalmologist for everything that is medically or surgically wrong with my eyes, but would prefer the optometrist checking my vision.
    Last edited by Chris Ryser; 03-21-2005 at 11:47 AM.

  10. #10
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Thank you, Chris.

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    Thumbs down M.D and PHD or O.D ??

    Drk and chirs I have no coments. Whatever you blieve is right for you thats what you do,... Drk I can read and write better than what you might think. whatever man . whatever..

    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    I

    s this a bad joke?:angry:<---> :hammer:???

    "Every opthamologist I've ever been to has laughed when they heard the following story, and none have wanted to disuss it with me in depth."

    Don't you know how to read? Or, are you referring to the contact lens reference?

    Yeah, MD's are renown for their knowledge in optics and CL fitting.
    Last edited by arman61; 03-22-2005 at 05:57 PM. Reason: forget it.
    "Gravitation can't be held responsible for people falling in love"(Einstein)
    "To go no where follow the crowd''

    Arman PourMirza

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    Master OptiBoarder Jedi's Avatar
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    Last edited by Jedi; 03-22-2005 at 11:10 PM.
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    Optical Clairvoyant OptiBoard Bronze Supporter Andrew Weiss's Avatar
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    What a great education! 45 years in the profession and still learning :bbg:

  14. #14
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    First off, I just wanted to thank all of you who read this and helped out (and I'm sorry I didn't post this sooner, but I work in an international tax office where I spend the better part of 70 hours a week :shiner: ).

    I've done some research on longitudinal chromatic aberration and basically had my jaw in my lap. Not only did it perfectly explain and diagram the color issues I mentioned in my first post, but also encompasses two other symptoms that I've noticed since childhood but never knew were related - low contrast vision in one eye and a marked difference in both location and size of objects between my two eyes. Neither of these have ever been problematic and I've only ever brought them up when asked by an eye doctor. I've passed every test with flying colors when they've tried to determine how well my eyes work together. In fact, these tests usually culminate in them wondering why my vision is so different in each eye when my eyes function in perfect synchronicity in every other way.

    Also, the wealth of information that I was able to find just from a few simple internet searches make me curious as to why seven opthamologists across two states over the past ten years have never heard of the symptoms. Is this an uncommon problem or is education on this subject highly specialized? If so, what are the odds of me finding a doctor who's heard of the problem and can offer treatment? I'm moving to New York City in June and my hopes are high of finding someone there.

    Now as for the contact lens issue I brought up in my previous post, it's being worked out. :) The person I saw is a member of the Contact Lens Society of America and has been great working with me to find something. But she told me that when you have a base curve of 9.1, lens options are pretty slim. I've been told that the only lenses you can get at that size are the original Acuvues, but that she doesn't prescribe them because they're thin and dry out easily (not good in humidity-free Denver, though that was the brand that worked perfectly for me in Baltimore).

    So the problem of erratic color remains. Is it worth even looking for an opthamologist who could help? If so, what are some key words I could ask when I call around? Please note that I'm not fishing for a diagnosis, but this problem is so annoying that I just want to find someone who could test all the possible options to find out what I DO have. For the record, the "duochrome test" that Darryl mentioned is something that I've never had before, despite all the opthamologists I've been to. Doing some reading, I found talk about it having to do with red and green lights simulating a .5 dipoter difference, but yet I have no recollection of this test ever being performed.

    Again, MANY thanks for all the help here... :bbg:

  15. #15
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    Tell contact lens "fitter" even if "she" is a member of the CLSA to fit you with rigid lenses. The curves can be custom made to any curvature, size, or whatever. I've had it with these no tallent soft lens fitters that feel if it isn't standard, it can't be done.

    Chip

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    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    If this is the case, it suggests that your eyeglass lenses may be over-corrected slightly for distance vision. It also suggests that your own guess wouldn't have been entirely wrong. Coincidentally, refractionists often use this very same effect to refine your eyeglass prescription during an eye exam; it's called a duochrome test.
    Great response, Darryl... I don't know if Terestai will be checking back with us, but if so rest assured you are not the only one who notices this quirk in your vision.

    Most people are able to notice a similar effect by pulling up a weather map on their computer (I would guess that you would notice this effect as well). Look at the blues of the cold front and the reds of warm fronts, and it almost looks 3D. As Darryl so adeptly noted, you are inducing your own version of the duochrome test.

    The "solution" would theoretically be to obtain an Rx that focuses the middle of the visible spectrum precisely on your retina. This way, colors on either end of the spectrum would be equally "fuzzy" when wearing correction. However, as Darryl also noted, your eye care provider may have over-under refracted you for some specific purpose.

    In the meantime, visit the liquor store when its open, make a purchase, and consume until all the colors look equally fuzzy (sorry, just had to put my own remedy in there ;^)!
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
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  17. #17
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    While I think you have a practioner with no rigid lens skills who is probably a member of CLAO and not the the CLSA. There are a few companies out there (notably CooperVision) that will custom make soft contact lenses with any base curve and any diameter.

    Chip

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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    Can't help you with your selective spectrum problems. But I can tell you that the "eye care professionals" that you saw and told you that "they don't make contact lenses for such flat corneas" weren't knowledgeable enough to call themselves "eye care professionals." You can make a contact lens from dead flat up. The only eye I ever saw that I couldn't fit because of regular (as oppossed to a few very horrible keratoconnus and a few badly scarred eyes) curvature had tuberculosis of the eye and a pressure so low that the cornea turned concave when I tried to make a mold of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    Tell contact lens "fitter" even if "she" is a member of the CLSA to fit you with rigid lenses. The curves can be custom made to any curvature, size, or whatever. I've had it with these no tallent soft lens fitters that feel if it isn't standard, it can't be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    While I think you have a practioner with no rigid lens skills who is probably a member of CLAO and not the the CLSA. There are a few companies out there (notably CooperVision) that will custom make soft contact lenses with any base curve and any diameter.
    I completely agree with the point that there are many options at our disposal (no pun intended) when fitting contact lenses, however, I don’t think it’s prudent to make rash judgments about this fellow’s practitioner. At best, the information we have is incomplete (no objective data about his eyes), possibly contradictory (he reports a “marked difference in both location and size of objects between [his] two eyes” but he has “passed every test with flying colors when they've tried to determine how well [his] eyes work together”), and one-sided. Heaven knows we can’t sufficiently determine a patient’s suitability for any particular type of contact lens or contact lenses in general until we have full context… and that can only be obtained with an examination.

  19. #19
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    My advice...see a private optometrist.

  20. #20
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Just my thoughts

    What a shame a man with your vision and educational background suffers in international tax law at obscene hours. My guess is; the sacrifices we make to provide for our families! I hope you can one day get back to work in the art world, be it film or canvas. Vision like yours is wasted where you're stuck now :(
    May I mount my high horse and ride to the defense of your current Doctor and her attempt to fit you with soft lenses? While fitting you with RGP's (Rigid Gas Permeable) is probably the ultimate solution few among us would look at a +.75 Rx or as the case may prove to be a weaker Rx, and assume contact lenses are what you need. I suggest you refer her to this web site and thread and after she reads it see if she wants to continue or refer you to someone else.
    Time to dismount :)
    Fester

  21. #21
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    Wave Darryl Meister and Chip Anderson are "right on".

    Darryl Meister and Chip Anderson are "right on" with this one. Good posts.

    Terestai does need to ask if the contact lens fitter he is about to set an appointment with works regularly with RGPs. This relates to all the "Os". The reason is that the human eye usually sees the most details when the color yellow is focused on the fovea. This is why we use yellow light to acurately measure the refractive ability of a lens. It just so happens that the cool colors (green) and the hot colors (red) are equal distance from the yellow in each direction on a color chart. Terestai is the first I have heard of this effect out side of a proper refraction using the duochrome test. I usually use the test to help me keep my doctor's patient in what is called the "circle of least confusion", which is where they can make better choices between lens options during a refraction.

    Sam Johnson, ABOM, NCLE-AC
    Texas Dept. of Health - Registered Optician

  22. #22
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    You are a walking "duochrome".

    During an exam I often use the duochrome slide, this makes one half the chart red, the other side green.

    If the black letters in the green are clearer, you are accomodating and may need more plus.

    If the red are clearer, you need less plus or more minus.

    This is all based on chromatic abberation which you seem to be sensitive to.

    Harry

  23. #23
    On the Sunset Tour! Framebender's Avatar
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    Wink Interesting topic. . .

    and I must admit I missed it the first time around. Does everyone realize we're working on a year old post??

    Hopefully the guy has moved to NY, seen a good OD and has gotten rid of that awful job he had!!
    :cheers:
    Days where my gratitude exceed my expectations are very good days!

  24. #24
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    Wave Question?

    Frame Bender,

    Are only ODs allowed to fit contacts in Colorado. Are there no Ophthalmologists who refer their patients to opticians that specialize in the fitting of contacts? In Texas, most of the best qualified fitters are Registered Opticians who specialize in the fitting of contacts.

    Sam Johnson, ABOM, NCLE-AC
    Texas Dept. of Health - Registered Optician

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