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Thread: Drill Mount Glass

  1. #1
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    Smilie Drill Mount Glass

    My question has to do with obtaining drill mount glass lenses!
    Iíd like to say that the reason for my asking came about after owning a pair of the titanium frame glasses in which the ďover the noseĒ wire holding the two lenses together broke at the weld. Right where the wire joins the lens (no I wasnít hit in the face with a baseball)! These frames were only two years old! I had just had a two-year check-up and went back to the store where I purchased the frames to see if they could weld them or replace the front piece, as the temples were still good, and at the same time install new lenses. The man explained to me that my frames were no longer made. He said that heíd be happy to sell me a different pair! My reply was that I wouldnít deal in any product with built in obsolescence. These glasses originally cost me close to $400.00 and lasted only two years! I hope this isnít the standard practice of the eye glass industry in order to gain sales!
    Iíve been the route with the plastic lenses. Iíve seen how after a years time the UV coating starts to take on a ďrainbow of colorĒ effect. As for the lenses themselves, even after a week and a new soft cotton cloth, they still seem to attract a myriad of wisping scratches. We also know that the optical clarity is less with plastic than that of the glass lenses. Glass is good!
    I currently have two pairs of glasses that Iím looking to get drill mount glass in. The first is a pair of gold filled pince nez frames, and my other is a pair of gold three piece frames marked B & L with what appears to be a hex shaped lens. Very similar to what my grandfather would have worn during the 30ís. Iíve picked these up at a reasonable price and I think theyíre something that any jewelry shop could probably gold solder should they break. They currently are fitted with plastic and do have all the problems mentioned above. I've again just had my eyes checked and would like to get new lenses.
    I'd hoped that I could get a straight answer from this forum on the subject of drill mount glass lenses.

    Now I know many of you hear the term ďdrill mount glassĒ and right away that CYA attitude kicks in! Iíve read many of the CYA lectures on this forum against the use of glass, so please, spare me the lectures. LOL
    Let me assure you that I donít play baseball, I donít work in a machine shop or sculpt granite for a living!
    Iím 51 years old, I sit in front of a computer all day, and my passion as a photographer allows me to handle and view through some very nice optically clear glass! Thus the appreciation for glass lenses! Plastic lenses really suck!
    Ever wonder why when you get your eyes checked, why every line looks so clear and crisp? Why itís those plastic lenses in the Dr's. equipment don't you know! LOL

    I donít remember my grandfather, grandmother, great-grandmother or great-grandfather ever having lost an eye to a broken lens! In fact, Iíd be interested in hearing from someone who makes glass eyes, if as to how many theyíve made for a lost eye due to a broken lens? I think a little common sense is in order here regarding the use of glass lenses!

    And Iím sure that nearly everyone who probably ground glass lenses years ago has replaced their equipment with the more modern machines that produce a lens from a plastic blank. So why promote glass when thereís plastic,less labor, more money, poorer product!

    So my question comes down to this. Is it against any law to drill mount glass lenses into 3 piece frames in the U.S.?
    If not, then is there anyone out there that would still do this type of lens replacement with a new prescription for the frames I described above?

    Is Canada an option if I canít get it done in the U.S.?

    Thank for your consideration to my question. From one who loves to view the world through a clear piece of glass!

  2. #2
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    I have made 150 artificial eyes a year for 42 years. I have made none from broken glasses. I have seen some horror stories about glass eyes breaking. All in the US are now plastic. I understand glass drill mounts are still legal if drilling is done before glass is tempered. Quite a few done in the Mississippi Delta.

    Chip

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    I would first like to say that it is too bad what has happened to you previously, and I wish you best of luck in the future. Remember that not all us as will give you a rotten experience.

    I did want to clarify something about the UV coating breaking off. There are better coatings than others out there. Now that coating is not actually a UV coating, but an Anti-Reflection coating. What has happened in the past is through manufacturing problems and other problems a lot of coatings have not held up well. The good news is there are new coatings on the market that are not only much more stable, but are very easy to clean. Four of them that I recommmend are the Sola Teflon, Crizal Alize, Super Hivision, and Zeiss Carat Advantage.

    Now, is it a good idea to wear glass? I would advice strongly against it. The first problem is safety. Now I know you are not in a situation where you feel safety is an issue, but what happens if you are in a car accident? What happens if somehow you trip and fall? Additionally, I can tell you that the glass lens will not hold up in that frame as well as a plastic, trivex, or polycarbonate lens. So, if you do get glass lenses, I strongly suggest a full frame (basically, it is a sacrifice). Additionally, the Anti-Reflective coatings on glass will not clean up as well as the ones I previously mentioned.

    I think, if you pick one of those coatings you will be more than happy with materials other than glass, but if you do pick glass you should really stick with a full frame.

  4. #4
    OptiBoard Professional Ryan's Avatar
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    First of all I would disagree with your "plastic lenses really suck" comment. What is your prescription? I was just curious as far as a weight issue. I am assuming weight doesn't really matter?

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    ricko;

    you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone to actually sell you drill mounted glass lenses, simply because of the "apparent risks" of glass lenses. I agree, glass is far superior to any plastic lens out there in some ways... but what you're asking for is incredibly hard to find in the good 'ol litigious U.S. of A.. It's too much of a legal issue to many companies and since it has become somewhat obsolete, that makes it harder to find and more expensive. However, if you search around and really stick to your guns, you might get what you want. Don't be suprised if it comes with some sort of liability waiver or finger wagging.

    If you're willing to give something else a go, I'd reccomend a high-index plastic or aspheric polycarbonate lens, coupled with an AR coating... the clarity is not quite that of glass, but it's almost as good. Plastics don't really suck all that much anymore, as you seem to believe.

    what I find hard to believe that they didn't have a comparable part for maybe a later design by the same manufacturer to replace the bridge piece. I've replaced the bridges out on a couple frames with different models with no ill effects (as long as they were about the same size)... you might want to go back and lean a little harder on the optician. The parts aren't always perfectly interchangeable, but you can usually find something that will work (with a little patience and skill).

    good luck in your search...

  6. #6
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    Will drilled glass pass the drop ball??

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    Mr. Anderson, you confirmed what I suspected as to how many glass eyes were a result of broken lenses.

    Ryan, my Rx is R -3.75sph +1.75cyl 86 axis, L -3.25sph +2.00cyl and 92 axis.
    Bifocal is +225

    Yes, I intend on sticking to my guns! As for waivers and finger pointing, bring it on! I'm a grown boy!

    Let me present an analogy to those of you who don't like glass. We read about how accidents involving SUV's cause so much damage to the other vehicle that there is some growing concern. If you drive a mid size, sport coupe, or compact, you should immediately give that car away and move into a Full size Hummer! Otherwise you should walk or be required to sign a waiver! After all, if you get into an accident with your car it could be very serious!
    Sound familiar? Now you're all going out to buy a Hummer this afternoon right?LOL

    So if no one in the U.S. is going to provide what I want, how about our Canadian friends? Or if you think you could fill my request but are afraid of what your peers would think should you post your decision to do so, then email me privately. I've included my email on my profile! And for the record, those frames I had that became obsolete after two years were the every popular Silhouette brand!
    No, I don't intend on giving up just yet!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ricko
    Mr. Anderson, you confirmed what I suspected as to how many glass eyes were a result of broken lenses.

    Ryan, my Rx is R -3.75sph +1.75cyl 86 axis, L -3.25sph +2.00cyl and 92 axis.
    Bifocal is +225

    Yes, I intend on sticking to my guns! As for waivers and finger pointing, bring it on! I'm a grown boy!

    Let me present an analogy to those of you who don't like glass. We read about how accidents involving SUV's cause so much damage to the other vehicle that there is some growing concern. If you drive a mid size, sport coupe, or compact, you should immediately give that car away and move into a Full size Hummer! Otherwise you should walk or be required to sign a waiver! After all, if you get into an accident with your car it could be very serious!
    Sound familiar? Now you're all going out to buy a Hummer this afternoon right?LOL

    So if no one in the U.S. is going to provide what I want, how about our Canadian friends? Or if you think you could fill my request but are afraid of what your peers would think should you post your decision to do so, then email me privately. I've included my email on my profile! And for the record, those frames I had that became obsolete after two years were the every popular Silhouette brand!
    No, I don't intend on giving up just yet!
    please re-read my post

  9. #9
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life

    I did want to clarify something about the UV coating breaking off. There are better coatings than others out there. Now that coating is not actually a UV coating, but an Anti-Reflection coating.
    Foe-Life has a good point,

    UV coatings can only be made on plastic lenses and penetrate the pores of the surface and which closes its pores when cooling off after treatment. The UV material cystalizes inside the surface and is not removable.

    Glass itself absorbs most UV anyhow. AR coatings have been made on glass since the 1930s (camera lenses) and have never had any adhearnce problems. Glass and Silicone dioxide(AR coating material) are some of the most natural products, originating from sand.

    AR coating adherance problems occur only on plastic lenses. That is why a layer of mostly thermocure polysiloxanes is applied (you guys call it a hard coat, which it is not) which adheres to the plastic lens and also lets the AR coating adhere properly.
    Chris Ryser
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    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

  10. #10
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    It's funny how time and time again we Opticians on here are accused of attacking a consumer who is simply here for some advice, but man oh man, this thread started out attacking those same Opticians that he wants answers from. If you want the correct and honest answer, you'll get it here, but if you want us to lie just so you can hear what you want to hear..you're in the wrong place.

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    Shellrob, why is it when a consumer comes on this forum asking a question you feel itís an attack? You all sure did a number on Paatricesí question farther down on this forum! She described a financial situation that restricted her from purchasing one of the overly priced frames of today and many of you jumped all over her for bargain hunting.
    If the question is on something you donít handle, you attack them for asking. I asked about getting drill mount glass lenses because glass is optically more clear, doesnít scratch like plastic, and can be cleaned with any paper towel. Ever see a painter clean paint specs off his glass lenses with a rag and a little terp? Bet you canít do that with plastic! Yet you insist on shoving plastic down my throat!
    I have here in my hand, a gold three-piece frame with glass lenses circa 1940. The frames are beautiful and the lenses are scratch free. Theyíve been worn for several years and thrown in a drawer for several. I just cleaned the lenses with my shirttail and no scratches! They display today a better quality than one can find in a frame and plastic lenses sold today, that only last for two years! Then again back in the 40ís they had craftsmen, not operators! You folks yourselves are no different from those consumers looking for quality and a fair price in their eyewear. Heck, I shoot senior pictures of kids for your types all the time, who only want to buy the minimum number of prints and then try to get more by scanning them on a home computer or going to Kinkoís to see if theyíll copy them. Ignoring copyright laws is no problem when it comes to money going out of YOUR wallets!
    So my question still stands, if you do glass Iíd be interested in hearing from you. If youíve sunk all your money in plastic lens machinery, donít reply trying to convince me of using plastic. Canít be any simpler than that!

  12. #12
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    Wow. I think I made my point.

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    Bad address email on file fvc2020's Avatar
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    glass lenses

    Dear Sir,



    I promise I won't push plastic on you, but I do want to tell you about a patient that I had, that thought like you.


    In 2001(it was the year the Semioles were in the Gator Bowl in Jacksonville, FL), my patient came in my office with his left side of his face severly bruised and his upper lid of his eye with a deep cut across it. He was a "I'll never wear anything but glass in my glasses"guy. I asked him what happened. He told me that he was downtown at the The Landing at the pep rally for FSU, and on his way back to his car he fell(tripped over a sprinkler head). It shattered his glasses, bruised his face, and cut his lid. His surgeon(yes he was seen by one to make sure the cut could be fixed)that it was a fluke he missed his eye. What I'm trying to say is that you don't have to be in high risk profession, or play hard to avoid glass. An accident can happen any time. If you do find someone to do this for you(doubtful)remember if and when you have an accident its your own fault.

    Christina

  14. #14
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    ricko, it's not just "CYA" that causes opticians to avoid glass in drill-mount frames. Federal law requires that "[a]ll lenses must be impact-resistant except when the physician or optometrist finds that impact-resistant lenses will not fulfill the visual requirements for a particular patient." 21 CFR 801.410. To be rendered "impact-resistant" under the regulation, glass lenses must be treated either by an annealing process (heating followed by rapid quenching) or a chemical treatment. Both of these processes produce a compression layer in the surface of the lens - and holes wreak havoc with the compression layer. For lenses with holes drilled in them, heat-treating is practically useless (the lenses usually crack around the holes in the quenching cycle). Chem-treatment is more likely to succeed (because, I suspect, the compression layer is created much more slowly) but still the yields are poor, and latent defects in the compression layer, such as might make the lenses more likely to fail around the hole later, would be impossible to detect. You'd only know of a problem when the lens broke.

    My personal suspicion is that in many if not most cases, the hardening process would actually induce adverse stress around the holes.

    If, on the other hand, you wanted to purchase untreated glass lenses, you would first have to find a "physician or optometrist" to sign off on it. Only then could an optician even think of providing such lenses.

    You may need to look outside our national borders, though I also think you'd have to actually go purchase the lenses outside the U.S., as the impact-resistance regulation applies to any lenses sold in this country, regardless of where they're made.

    Personally, I like glass, too - I wore some thin, high-index glass lenses from Europe for a couple of years not too long ago. Even so, while I no longer sell eyeglasses, I'd be very reluctant to sell glass lenses to anyone under any circumstances, especially now that I've learned something about strict products liability.

  15. #15
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    Drilling glass NO problem........................

    Quote Originally Posted by ricko

    I have here in my hand, a gold three-piece frame with glass lenses circa 1940. The frames are beautiful and the lenses are scratch free.
    What you have in your hands is a gold filled piece of rimless frame. The lenses probably are regular crown glass containing 4 holes drilled with a diamond drill. Ther are no more gold filled frames on the market, they are now gold colored, anodized and so forth.

    There is totally no problem doing lenses for such a frame, I personally did hundreds of them in my time.
    It could still be done with a good carbide drill and some terpentine, a lot of time and patience.

    However what was standard then in no more standard today. The old diamond drills ended up in the garbage or in some museum. Today;s opticians have never learned to drill glass by hand and most of them buy those fully automatic lens drilling machines to do the job.

    However your problem is a bit more complex. In the USA you have to temper the glass which is not very compatible with drilled holes and the tension when mounted in the frame. The lenses also have to be thicker. The opticians can not do it anymore because they never trained for it. The wholesale labs, if they couild do it, dont weant to do it because they are geared for mass production.

    You could get what you want in Europe without much problem, but it will be expensive, but you could also get it in India, China and other far eastern countries were glass lenses are still used to 80% and everybody is still eqiped to do them ion all styles and shapes.

    I hope I have adressed your problem in non agressive and insulting way. Times have changed, so has technology and also often service. The optical industry is being gobbled up the large optical corporations and in a few years optical store will become order and delivery outlets for 3-5 companies that will control the professions world wide.

    20 years ago I used to go the local cop station and asked them to check my house once in while as I was going on a 3 week holiday, and they checked it daily. Could you still do such thing ? Times are changing and so is technology.
    Chris Ryser
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  16. #16
    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Shellrob, why is it when a consumer comes on this forum asking a question you feel itís an attack? You all sure did a number on Paatricesí question farther down on this forum! She described a financial situation that restricted her from purchasing one of the overly priced frames of today and many of you jumped all over her for bargain hunting.

    Depending on the item or service, there's usually a right way and a stupid way to "bargain hunt". She was thinking of trying the stupid way and the folks here were trying to point that out, with varying degrees of tact.

    If the question is on something you donít handle, you attack them for asking. I asked about getting drill mount glass lenses because glass is optically more clear, doesnít scratch like plastic, and can be cleaned with any paper towel.


    Very few brands of paper toweling will harm plastic lenses.


    Ever see a painter clean paint specs off his glass lenses with a rag and a little terp? Bet you canít do that with plastic! Yet you insist on shoving plastic down my throat!

    Are you a painter? Except for polycarbonate, you can safely use solvents on plastic lenses. Might damage the frame though.

    Glass lenses are readily available, drilled glass lenses (in the US) are not. The FDA has declared that eyeglass lenses must not break too easily, and has told the manufacturers that they *must* drop a 5/8ths in steel ball from 60" onto the lens before the lens leaves the lab. If it survives this abuse, the lens is yours. The test must be documented. If you fall on your face and injure your eye, the lab is reasonably immune from lawsuits. A drilled lens might survive this test, but failures are higher when you drill 4 holes in the lens and then drop a steel ball on it. Yes, you can reduce "breakages" by grinding the lens thicker. But nobody seems to be in hurry to buy an extra thick and extra heavy glass lens. So the lab will use the normal thickness and raise the price to cover the broken lenses. So far so good. The lens is then mounted into the frame with using bolts, nuts, sleeves, and washers. But, everyone in the optical industry knows that attaching the frame to two little holes on each side of the lens puts a tremendous amount of pressure in a very small area of the lens, especially if the hinge and temple are not compliant. It won't take much force to break the lens in this configuration. Common sense when you think about it. The courts and juries think it's common sense also, and will rule in the injured parties favor. The optician will also be named in the suit, and if the doctor owns any part of the business they will also be sued. Oh, almost forgot, the company that supplies the lens blank to the lab will have their time in court (including bankruptcy court).

    <rhetoric snipped>

    So my question still stands, if you do glass Iíd be interested in hearing from you. If youíve sunk all your money in plastic lens machinery, donít reply trying to convince me of using plastic. Canít be any simpler than that!

    Ja, I used to think I knew it all, and a couple of old timers staightened me out. There's probably a german word for this, something like sticken de footsen inst de mouthan.
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    Chris,
    Thank you for your unbiased and informative answer. I did find it non-aggressive! In fact, it was like a breath of fresh air on this forum! LOL
    I will now expand my search in a different direction.
    Kindest Regards

  18. #18
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    Hello
    My E-mail is mishmush@att.net
    May be I know somebody who can help you.

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    Blue Jumper Trivex will fit your needs

    ricko, I am surprised that nobody has reccomended Trivex to you. It has a much higher abbe(clearer vision) than Poly and has a very high tensile strength.
    It is the best option for drill mounts without a doubt!!

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    Hmmm. It's about time you got on here DaveD.

  21. #21
    OptiBoard Professional Ryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveD
    ricko, I am surprised that nobody has reccomended Trivex to you. It has a much higher abbe(clearer vision) than Poly and has a very high tensile strength.
    It is the best option for drill mounts without a doubt!!

    This patient thinks polycarb and plastic are too new. So I don't think he would be interested in TRivex.

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    glass lenses

    Thank you Ryan for the suggestion, but I have since found what I was searching for.
    Regards

  23. #23
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    glass

    Rick, as one who has been in this business for over 40 years, the following is true.
    We all know and realize that glass lenses are superior as optics are concerned.

    As one who has fabricated literally, thousands of them in the days when people had a different attitude, is why this problem exists today.

    It is not because we cannot do it, it is not because we flat out do not want to do it, We are the victims of present and current circumstances.

    In todays highly litiguios society, i cannot afford to take the chance of fabricating a glass lens for anyone, as if it should shatter, which it may do whether or not it is heat or chemically treated, and then wind up in court with the patient and J.J. schwartz, l.l.c.

    Yes, this has happened, to a number of opticians, myself i was once sued by a lady who claimed i ground her lens to thick, i won, but it was pretty stupid, so that is why you are hearing these remarks from most opticians, however keep looking and you will find one somewhere, there is always someone who will take a chance.

    Rick, i am sure you mean well, but take the time somewhere and do some research on these cases and you will understand why we feel this way. This also causes us to carry huge amounts of liability insurance.

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    Harry,
    Thank you for the reply. I find it interesting that you've been in the business for over 40 years, you've made thousands of glass lenses and yet the only time in all those 40+ years and thousands of glass lenses, that you were sued, was one instance of where you made a lens too thick! I guess this says one thing, you're a craftsman who put out a good product! This is backed by the gentleman who posted after my original post, who has made glass eyes for over 42 years, and not a one was required as a result of a broken lens. I'm sure a lot of the fear comes from the fact that there are a lot of "operators" out there that just don't know how to do the job. Then again there's the economics of putting in a plastic blank in a machine, making a few selections, and pushing a few buttons and presto chango, out pops a new lens! Low cost blank, high retail price lens. Less hours, less training and lower paid wages. Not to mention that there probably is a high cost to maintain two specialized lines of machinery, one for plastic and one for glass.
    I seen another post on this forum from a person who thought $16.00 per hour was a low wage. Well that was until someone like yourself piped in and explained the meaning of experience to him and what it was all about. Again, it was about a craftsman of old compared to an operator of today.
    Fortunately, I have found a craftsman who is confident in his work that will make the glass lenses I need.
    Lenses have gone the same way as furniture. Used to be able to buy good furniture that was put together using dovetailed joints, etc. Today it's staples, and if your lucky a little additional glue for that pressboard!
    Kindest Regards

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricko
    Harry,
    Thank you for the reply. I find it interesting that you've been in the business for over 40 years, you've made thousands of glass lenses and yet the only time in all those 40+ years and thousands of glass lenses, that you were sued, was one instance of where you made a lens too thick! I guess this says one thing, you're a craftsman who put out a good product! This is backed by the gentleman who posted after my original post, who has made glass eyes for over 42 years, and not a one was required as a result of a broken lens. I'm sure a lot of the fear comes from the fact that there are a lot of "operators" out there that just don't know how to do the job. Then again there's the economics of putting in a plastic blank in a machine, making a few selections, and pushing a few buttons and presto chango, out pops a new lens! Low cost blank, high retail price lens. Less hours, less training and lower paid wages. Not to mention that there probably is a high cost to maintain two specialized lines of machinery, one for plastic and one for glass.
    I seen another post on this forum from a person who thought $16.00 per hour was a low wage. Well that was until someone like yourself piped in and explained the meaning of experience to him and what it was all about. Again, it was about a craftsman of old compared to an operator of today.
    Fortunately, I have found a craftsman who is confident in his work that will make the glass lenses I need.
    Lenses have gone the same way as furniture. Used to be able to buy good furniture that was put together using dovetailed joints, etc. Today it's staples, and if your lucky a little additional glue for that pressboard!
    Kindest Regards
    See Ricko, where the problem develops here is that you gave all these reasons why you hate anything but glass, but we contradicted those reasons. That must mean something.

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