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Thread: 1 year Opticianry program anywhere??

  1. #26
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmorse View Post
    Hell, the US trained WWII combat pilots flying very expensive airplanes in three (3) months.

    Of course, as aircraft technology has evolved, so has the education requirement (undergraduate degree is required) and the length of time in flight school and in training squadrons.

    If education had not changed to meet technological advances, we'd still be going to barbers to have our teeth pulled.

    Post-secondary education is the only way Opticianry will remain a viable profession and the only way Opticians will expand their scope of practice.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    I am sorry, but you suggested otherwise, sir. when you underlined public in your post, which is why I commented in the first place. We will disagree on levels of education and it is unfortunate. As to US states....they do not accredit anything. It is regional and a private function, as I said. I am aware of the Canadian provincial approval/accreditation, but that is not the US system. But still you miss my point. For many reasons we must have more education to reach professional levels here in the US. Your school (as well as several in California are good starting places, but we will not ever agree that a six-month program can do what a 2-year program can do, elistest or not. As to the faculty here......directors, as I mentioned in my first post, must have at least a bachelors degree. An AAS is not sufficient. General faculty can have only an AAS. As an educator, I am surprised you do not see the value of expanding education. I will stop by sometime, and would enjoy seeing your facility. I am sure you do a fine job, and will look forward to it.
    I enjoyed the discussion
    Reponse:
    My public underlining referred to the credit hour system, which public schools have always had in place, although a few private schools are now ing articulation agreements, such as the Colorado school mentioned in my last post.

    ... and sure US States don't accredit, the COA does. But many individual states that have licensing legislation make it plain that an A.S.S. degree is required to operate as an Optician. So the State is actively involved.

    "... we will never agree that a six (6)-month program can do what a two (2) year program can do". Is this the Royal "we"? Please come to the NFOS College Bowl in New York City this March, 2007 and and see what the best A.A.S. students do to a simple slab-off final question.

    Also. look up 'accreditation' in the dictionary... talks of meeting 'official requirements', which really means COA requirements. Tomorrow, the COA could mandate that all future Opticians be male and over 6' 2" tall, and the accreditted US school would all follow suit to maintain their accreditation. Granted this is extreme, but I am sure you get my point.

    And according to COA requirements, accreditted A.A.S. school Program Directors must have as a minimum of a Bachelors degree. But my experience as Program Director tells me that a Bachelor (of Farts) will do little to prepare a Program Director to do his job any better. A Business Administration might be better. IMHO this is just COA window-dressing put in a few years ago to look good to government so as to extend their expiring accreditation mandate... and for the added benefit of giving opticianry more of a professional status to those who oppose Opticians labelling themselves as 'Professional".

    Sorry to sound so glum but I view things as they are rather, than how I would like them to be.

    And normally I would consider any committed '2-year program' advocate as my competitor and would NOT extend an invitation to see my school facilities (except to show off). So I look forward to your visit at our six (6)-month opticianry program for that very reason.
    And I also could never resist a good debate.:cheers:

  3. #28
    Master OptiBoarder lensgrinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmorse View Post
    You fail to state exactly what opticianry information you think an A.A.S. degree graduate lacks, and perhap you confuse 'training' with 'experience'.
    Like I said originally I do not know what the California program is or what it teaches. I said that I do not think a few months is enough to give a person a good foundation in basic optics or Opticianry. I think it is great that someone would persue education, whether that be for a couple of months or through an AAS degree.
    Generally the AAS degree is five semesters and I think that more could be taught. You are saying that someone could be optically trained in a couple of months, I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by tmorse View Post
    Too many people do a credible job dispensing most eyeglasses with only rudimentary in-house training. A shorter opticianry program that covers the basics of opticianry may interest them, but you can see their opposition to the notion their job requires an A.A.S. degree.
    No I do not see their opposition. In order to move Opticianry forward we need to have a standard and that standard should be an AAS degree.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensgrinder View Post
    Like I said originally I do not know what the California program is or what it teaches. I said that I do not think a few months is enough to give a person a good foundation in basic optics or Opticianry. I think it is great that someone would persue education, whether that be for a couple of months or through an AAS degree.
    Generally the AAS degree is five semesters and I think that more could be taught. You are saying that someone could be optically trained in a couple of months, I disagree.


    No I do not see their opposition. In order to move Opticianry forward we need to have a standard and that standard should be an AAS degree.
    I would normally say... "on what facts do you say that "someone could not be optically trained in a couple of months".
    Someone once stated..."We may all born alike, but we sure don't stay that way". We have been training opticians since 1984 and we know our craft. You can't see it? Take our program!!!

    "And you can't see their opposition."?

    How many States are licensed States, and are their numbers growing?" No, only 22 States are licensed out of 51, down from 24 States a few years ago. So many legislators are voting (with help from some Big Chains) a big "NO" to the notion that opticianry requires licensure.

    But you have a right to your opinion... " I disagree with everything you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" A famous American said that, and I totally agree.:cheers:

  5. #30
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmorse View Post
    Tomorrow, the COA could mandate that all future Opticians be male and over 6' 2" tall, and the accreditted US school would all follow suit to maintain their accreditation.

    Really? As a former Commissioner, I can assure you that COA is absolutely committed to maintaining the best post-secondary Opticianry programs currently available in the US. COA is accredited by the US Department of Education. I was part of an on-site evaluation team being evaluated by DOE. Our evaluation process was closely monitored as a part of COA's re-accreditation process. Our accreditation was renewed.
    Last edited by Judy Canty; 01-18-2007 at 10:57 PM.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy Canty View Post
    Of course, as aircraft technology has evolved, so has the education requirement (undergraduate degree is required) and the length of time in flight school and in training squadrons.

    If education had not changed to meet technological advances, we'd still be going to barbers to have our teeth pulled.

    Post-secondary education is the only way Opticianry will remain a viable profession and the only way Opticians will expand their scope of practice.
    I totally agree. But an undergraduate degree? Why that? Why not a shorter, condensed course of opticianry instruction. One that covers all the basics of opticianry, and more. And by basics I mean geometric optics formulas, and contact lenses instruction on how to fit RGP front torics, back torics, bi-torics, and the use of lens flexure to avoid front torics in certain situations. In my view these are basics.

    Why am A.A.S. degree? Maybe egomania so that I, with only a high school education, can take a 2-year A.A.S. degree and call myself a health-care professional. I will the poo-hoo all shorter course to maintain my ego status.
    I certainly will not approach the idea of a condensed curriculum with an open mind.
    No, I will simply say that I don't agree, that it can't be done any quicker or done well. I have my 'professional' degree. Except most of the other O's won't accept your quasi-professional status with only a 2-year degree. So what's the next step to expanding our scope of practice? A 4-year degree? Where does it end?

    I predict that it will end like the barber who also happened to pull teeth. He was the only one around willing to do so in the frontier towns. But I am sure people were not going to barbers for tooth-pulling in Philadelphia, PA in the late 1800's. Hell, optometry was even recognized by the US Army/Navy untill the middel 1940's.

    So evolution is indeed involved, but evolution cannot be predicted. I know here in Canada, with full opticianry licensure all across the entire land, every year Big Business make attempts to remove licensure provisions. Maybe one day Big Business will convince polititians that there is another way to go. And I doubt the road is towards a longer 2-year A.A.S. program.

    My school opened in Britsih Columbia in 1984, a full twelve (12)-years before our legislature was convinced that opticianry should be licensed (in 1996). But BC opticals and some Optometrists recognized the benefits of hiring our six (6)-month graduates when there was no legal necessity for them to do so. So I stand on our current record and defy anyone to examine our curriculum and find any credible fault. Sure a longer curriculum lends itself to more credibility with the masses, but what am I going to add to make the program better? I can find nothing to justify extending the length of my program.

    The A.A.S. opticianry degree was developed in the US to meet a proposed need for a technical 'degree' in this field. But the majority of States do not agree, and opticianry languishes in a vacume. Only 22 States now support some form of licensure (although not all at the A.A.S. level), down from 24 States a few years ago. Opticianry appears to be in decline in the US, and I say that it is more probable that a shorter, condensed program will interest more non-licensed State students than imposing a 2-year A.A.S. degree. And more formally-trained opticains may revive many of the current moribund State optical associations.

    But who knows, I can't predict evolution any better than the next person.
    P.S. Opticians in British Columbia have already expanded their scope of practice to include 'sight-testing'. So we must be doing something right.

    Wow... too long on my Soap Box.:cheers:

  7. #32
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    So your option is that we throw our hands in the air and say "oh well, never mind"? If Optometry had done that it might have remained a 2 year program as well. More and better education is not a bad thing in any field.

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    COA accreditation of schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy Canty View Post
    Really? As a former Commissioner, I can assure you that COA is absolutely committed to maintaining the best post-secondary Opticianry programs currently available in the US. COA is accredited by the US Department of Education. I was part of an on-site evaluation team being evaluated by DOE. Our evaluation process was closely monitored as a part of COA's re-accreditation process. Our accreditation was renewed.
    Congratulations on COA's accreditation re-newal. It does have a useful function in maintaining A.A.S. school accreditations.

    My 6' 2" COA comments were facetious... not meant to be taken literally. But COA did chose to maintain certain course length requirements, perhaps for political reasons, rather than focus on an in-depth examination of that Colorado school and its student learning outcomes during that school's initial accreditation audit. And as mentioned in my post, it was to the COA's credit that they later reversed this unconscionable conduct.

  9. #34
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    We.......

    ....the "we" I referred to is you and I. It is clear that our sense and value of education and/or training is different, but I value the discussion. As to accreditation, I did not specify COA, which is programmatic only. I refer to accreditation in general. As to the publis statement; the Carnegie Foundation developed the credit hour to measure across the board what academic credit should look like, and is not simply for public schools, as I tried to mention before. All colleges and universities use this system. I am sorry you do not agree with it, but it is widely accepted by colleges and universities all over as the gold standard. Also, as to the bachelor's degree, I do not intend to impune your program, but as an educator, I value the understanding and critical thinking that is developed in a liberal arts foundation. Program Directors need to be able to manage people and resources, and should be trained in teaching in some respect among other interests they may have individually. I would encourage you to expand your program to meet COA requirements, and add that to your training program. You will see a higher level of student develope. Look at the research in nursing. It is evident that a nurse prepared at the baccalaureate level gains additional skills that are widely recognized by the leadership of that profession as beneficial and necessary. Opticians can and should do that as well. Follow the ODs model. They recognized the value of education early on and have succeeded very well. We can follow that model and accomplish higher goals.

    As to the COA, I do not discuss COA business publically, but let me just say that you are not fully aware of the situation that occurred in Colorado. I have made over 35 site visits to schools across America and have seen some excellent programs of all sorts, and worked with dedicated volunteers that spend their valuable time reviewing programs housed in schools that understand the value of accreditation at the program level. But Commissioners do not talk about the issues of individual schools in a forum such as this.

    Yes, Canada has done some many good things and I applaude them, but in the US, a short-term approach is not what is needed. Therein may lie our differences. The US does not value as highly short-term training programs as obviously you do. In fact, even an Associate Degree is seen as "less than". It is clear our values vary. I will be at the College Bowl, and look forward to that opportunity. There are good students and some less enthusiastic ones in all schools, and I hope to see some good ones. But an Associate Degree is designed a career education in the US. My comments are based in years of study in education and founded in research as well as experience. I think you view things as you see them from your experience, as many do, but dig deeper. Look at the years of research in other health-related professions and you may change your opinion. Unfortunately, little research other than my own and Prof. Woods group has been done on Opticianry. Maybe we should collaborate on a study of some sort to answer our questions here. I bet we could get some interesting results.

  10. #35
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    education

    Quote Originally Posted by Shwing View Post
    Ehllo (Canadian for Hello)

    :}

    NAIT does not offer a fast track program

    The didactic is a two year course.

    Please contact the program assistant, Monique Mackay:

    optical@nait.ca
    This is a frustrating program. Unfortunately it is the only one we can use to upgrade our skills in our field while continuing to work. The Eyeglass program is 2 years then Contact Lens program is another 2 years. Once you pass the eyeglass portion you have to take the Nacor exam (a practical exam) that provides you with your license (once you pass) to practice as a legally qualified Optician. Then you can take the contact lens program and take the Nacor exam for contact lenses which will provide you with a dual license.

    It is a better course than the shorter versions as we have a greater understanding both practically and theoretically. The courses that are fasttracked here don't provide you with the practical experience you need to qualify as an Optician and consequently, the failure rate at the Nacor level is quite high. If you do pass the Nacor exam there are many concerns that arise that are not taught in the schools due to time constraints. I don't feel this is the way to go. It's better to know your field adequately qualified than to get through testing and figure it out on your own. Once again...this is only my opinion.

    I am currently taking the NAIT Advance Practice One for Contact lenses and I am so frustrated with it. I have passed the theory part of it with an 89% average! The first year is based on physiology, pathology and anatomy of the eye. Yet somehow, in my practical, I am to conduct a follow up exam without having inserted a contact lens!! I am to use SOAP/Chief complaint protocol to determine (for example) various keratitis patients by having a conversation! Nothing in this first year has taught me anything on contact lenses or K-readings. I can tell you what the pathologies are and what to look for but we legally cannot diagnose. I understand the background and it's importance but to base a practical on theory makes absolutely no sense. My preceptor and I are baffled at the backwards instruction on this task as this should be done after I & R, K-reading, and slit lamp instruction. The kicker is I can't go on to year two without this part of the practicum done.

    It's nice to be able to work and learn at the same time as I have no other alternative. But my contact is an administrator, who contacts NAIT and then gets back to me. I am still waiting on assistance regarding the above concern from an email sent a month ago and again a week ago. So basically you are on your own with this course. Sounds like you guys Stateside have it going on better than we do up here.

    Anyway...it's my first post. I mean no offence in my *rant* and if anyone can offer any assistance, I'M ALL EARS!!!
    Last edited by optikat; 01-19-2007 at 02:45 PM.

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    Nait.....

    ......requires that you be employed in your area of study. The program provides the didactic component only, and your preceptor should be providing the clinical training in the office/clinic. They also have a clinical session twice yearly that brings you in to review the practical skills you should be learning in the field. Call NAIT and ask for Ian MacIvor and he will gladly assist you. I am sure he will chime in here someplace. Do not worry, it can be fixed so all clearly understand.

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    Ian can certainly give you better advice than I, but, as Warren has indicated, there are practicum requirments for the program. Slit lamp biomicroscopy is an essential and important skill to learn, and it doesn't involve "diagnosing," or "treating." Rather, we like to call it "recognize and manage." You need to be able to recognize contact lens related complications and be able to manage them effectively, and you do need someone on hand to show you these skills.

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    Oh I fully agree with you. I just feel that slit lamp requirements, for example, would be ahead of a follow up exam with patients exhibiting a specific pathology. It just seems like a backwards way of training. Learning is what this field is all about. You never stop learning and it's one of the reasons why I selected this field as a career. But it shouldn't be this frustrating.

    Either way, I WILL have a dual license :cheers: !!

  14. #39
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    Dual license holders ROCK!:cheers:

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