Looking to buy 1st time progressive lenses online- feeling overwhelmed!!!

**patrice** · 02-19-2005, 06:41 PM

I am about to purchase my first pair of progressives.
OD-1.25-0.00 X 180
OS-0.75-O.25 X 174
ADD + 1.25
Do you think the Shamir would be a good choice for me? Right now I only wear my glasses to drive, and squint a lot of the other time !:hammer:
I do have a pair of bifocals (i'm 48) but i never have worn them. I can still read without but it is becoming more difficult. My biggest concern is that I am starting a small home based sewing business, and sew sew sew about 10 hours a day. It makes my eyes ache. I tried the bif but then everytime i look up (often) I have to take them off. I've decided to order from an optician from E-bay, who guarantee's the glasses 100%. He has the frames I want, completely round, lense width is 1 3/4 in. He suggested i may do better to get a pair of readers for the sewing instead of the pals. There are so many lenses being offered, after reading this forum whew - I'm overwhelmed!!! i'm apprehensive about buying online but the cost is at least 1/2 of what i would otherwise pay. I really need driving sunglasses as well, but i've heard most transition lenses don't change while in a car. Arghhh ! What to do????? If any of you brilliant minds out there could offer any advice my way I would greatly appreciate it!!!
Thanks very much.
Patrice in Berkeley

**For-Life** · 02-19-2005, 07:09 PM

If you order the lenses off the net you will have even a harder time reading and seeing in distance.

Progressive Lenses are not easy to fit. I know that in my city a lot of the stores still cannot fit them properly. That is why it is essential to go see a well trained, independent optician.

I know online can be cheap, but would you rather spend $500 on something that works or $300 on something that will sit in a drawer.

I know the person on E-Bay guaranteed the prescription, but that is not difficult. A person making minimum wage can do that. Will the person be able to guarantee that you can see? I can to my clients who see me in person.

**chip anderson** · 02-19-2005, 07:13 PM

Has the whole world gone madd looking for a bargain?
The individual measurements and adjustments on progressives are very critical.
If you buy them on line you'll be overwhelmed for sure! See a reputable optician and save money on other stuff. This is something that you will wear 365 days a year. Think what you spend on panty hose in the same period and not everybody sees them. Splurge for top quality and service in eyewear.

The brand probably doesn't matter (a good shop won't use junk) and all of the better ones work if done properly.

Chip

Patrice: Sorry I didn't read you whole post at first and I didn't notice you are from Berkley. Which explains everything.

**For-Life** · 02-19-2005, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by chip anderson

The brand probably doesn't matter (a good shop won't use junk) and all of the better ones work if done properly.

Chip

Exactly. Almost anyone can work with a properly fit Super Noline (really low end), and almost everyone cannot see with an inproper Gradal Top or Panamic (high end).

**Joe Stella** · 02-19-2005, 08:58 PM

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**hcjilson** · 02-19-2005, 09:01 PM

the ebay optician? If he's any good he should have a phone, and more importantly an address.

I will leave some advice which is worth slightly more than Patrice is paying for it.

"The bitter taste of shoddy workmanship and service will last a lot longer than the sweet taste of low price"

**patrice** · 02-19-2005, 11:33 PM

Hey thank you Mr Anderson for your replies. That is very kind of you. I'm not from Berkeley I just moved here but i guess you must have experience with this city to have such strong knowledge about those who reside here. I lived in San Francisco for 22 years, does that make me a better person? Why the hostility guys?? Are on-line bargains taking money out of your pockets? I am a disabled individual on a very limited income and don't have $500 to spend, gee sorry. The e-bay optician has a 100% positive feedback of over 2200, yes he has a real store and a real address and a real phone number. Is that all you guys are making, minimum wage? Is his 100% money back guarantee different then the Lenscrafters guarantee? Lenscrafters is the first place i went to, not a single round frame in the store, same with (EVERY) single other major chain, and when i was asking the clerk about the difference in progressives she told me there was no such thing, that progressives were only unlined bifocals. Hey- thats where i should spent my money, huh? And the store was not even in Berkeley, imagine that!!! I did speak to this optician, he did make suggestions , which i mentioned in my original post, I was hoping for other opinions. Guess i choose the wrong forum. Thanks though for your replies because now i am more inclined to buy on-line, at least this optician was very nice. I hope you all are kinder to your clients in person. I didn't deserve this backlash. Are you licensed opticians ???? Geez what a group.

**For-Life** · 02-19-2005, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by patrice

Hey thank you Mr Anderson for your replies. That is very kind of you. I'm not from Berkeley I just moved here but i guess you must have experience with this city to have such strong knowledge about those who reside here. I lived in San Francisco for 22 years, does that make me a better person? Why the hostility guys?? Are on-line bargains taking money out of your pockets? I am a disabled individual on a very limited income and don't have $500 to spend, gee sorry. The e-bay optician has a 100% positive feedback of over 2200, yes he has a real store and a real address and a real phone number. Is that all you guys are making, minimum wage? Is his 100% money back guarantee different then the Lenscrafters guarantee? Lenscrafters is the first place i went to, not a single round frame in the store, same with (EVERY) single other major chain, and when i was asking the clerk about the difference in progressives she told me there was no such thing, that progressives were only unlined bifocals. Hey- thats where i should spent my money, huh? And the store was not even in Berkeley, imagine that!!! I did speak to this optician, he did make suggestions , which i mentioned in my original post, I was hoping for other opinions. Guess i choose the wrong forum. Thanks though for your replies because now i am more inclined to buy on-line, at least this optician was very nice. I hope you all are kinder to your clients in person. I didn't deserve this backlash. Are you licensed opticians ???? Geez what a group.

We did not mean it as a personal insult, but to us it is. We have studied hard for our licences. We have worked hard to build a foundation of experience and to build our clientele. We know that what we have done is worth it because we have high success rates. So when these on-line dealers spit in our face (not you, the dealers) and all of our training, and all of our hard work we tend to feel insulted.

Now lets look at this logically. If we really felt that this was money from our pockets wouldn't one of us offer to do the work for you. Maybe beat the price that your optician is offering? Of course we would, but we didn't. The reason why we didn't is because it would be unethical for us to do so.

It is not right for us to do something wrong for money. We know that to take a proper progressive measurement you need certain fittings only done in person. We know that for you to properly see out of said glasses that they need to be properly fitted to your face.

I have had people offer to buy glasses from me, because of certain materials available in Canada are not available in the US, but through a mail or online sale I have always turned them down, because frankly I am doing you a disservice, and am stealing your money.

As for the 100 percent return. Only 2 percent of unsatisfied customers ever us that, so it is just a catch phrase nowadays.

We are just trying to help by telling you that you need to go see a good independent optician, not Lenscrafters, but a business owners whose interest is you.

**Joe Stella** · 02-20-2005, 12:35 AM

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**PAkev** · 02-20-2005, 12:50 AM

You obviously value "professional" advice or you would have recieved all the necessary information from the person on e bay.

OPTICIAN RESPONSIBILITIES actually go above and beyond providing eyewear to the prescription parameters ordered by an examining doctor. They are also responsible to inform patients of eyewear products which will best meet their patient’s optical needs. This includes offering to explain features and benefits of practical solutions regardless if the optician believes a patient will not appreciate or can not afford modern optical technology.

As optical "professionals" we place a high value on maintaining mutual relationships with our patients. This usually means offering quality eyewear at a fair price to make it a positive experience for both the patient and professional. This is the professional who remembers your name and greets you during passing at the grocery store. This is the professional who opens his/her shop on a Sunday evening to make an emergency repair of personally dispenses your eyewear to your home. This is the professional who is also a consumer that purchases other goods , services, and pays taxes. Patients chasing the best deal are usually our least loyal customers because they are motivated to purchase by price only.

My guess is that your previous eyewear purchasing experiences have not been positive and will remind you of concept "you get what you pay for."
Although it's only semantics, "You also pay for what you don't get"

I personally have had countless opportunities to sell eyewear without the prescence of a patient and ended up turning down nearly all of them because I know I can not do everything possible to help the patient see their best. And although it may be perfectly legal .....it's not RESPONSIBLE.

**Ryan** · 02-20-2005, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by patrice

Hey thank you Mr Anderson for your replies. That is very kind of you. I'm not from Berkeley I just moved here but i guess you must have experience with this city to have such strong knowledge about those who reside here. I lived in San Francisco for 22 years, does that make me a better person? Why the hostility guys?? Are on-line bargains taking money out of your pockets? I am a disabled individual on a very limited income and don't have $500 to spend, gee sorry. The e-bay optician has a 100% positive feedback of over 2200, yes he has a real store and a real address and a real phone number. Is that all you guys are making, minimum wage? Is his 100% money back guarantee different then the Lenscrafters guarantee? Lenscrafters is the first place i went to, not a single round frame in the store, same with (EVERY) single other major chain, and when i was asking the clerk about the difference in progressives she told me there was no such thing, that progressives were only unlined bifocals. Hey- thats where i should spent my money, huh? And the store was not even in Berkeley, imagine that!!! I did speak to this optician, he did make suggestions , which i mentioned in my original post, I was hoping for other opinions. Guess i choose the wrong forum. Thanks though for your replies because now i am more inclined to buy on-line, at least this optician was very nice. I hope you all are kinder to your clients in person. I didn't deserve this backlash. Are you licensed opticians ???? Geez what a group.

Enjoy those new glasses. I hope you use your HUGE savings on something more worthwile than your vision. One question, how is the online ebay optician supposed to measure your mono pd and your bifocal seg height?? I suppose he might recommend you to an optician in your area to take the measurements and then fit the glasses when you recieve them in your mailbox. How well do those frames fit you that you saw on your computer screen? Oh, thats right, can't try them on. I am sure he can get you longer or shorter temples if you need them. No? Ok. So when a screw loosens up and needs to be tightend, be sure to send them back and let your online ebay optician tighten it, because you don't want to go in to your local optician because they charge too much. PS, if you find a good dentist online, let me know, I am due for my annual cleaning and getting it done in person is too costly.

Here is some friendly advice, get the name of the frame you saw online, see if you can get it from a local independent optician, or show them a picture of it. See if they might can get it or order something similar. Tell them what kind of budget you are on, and I GUARANTEE they can find you a progressive lens and a frame to make you happy. (Unless you are paying like $30 bucks or something crazy for your online ebay glasses.)

**Chris Ryser** · 02-20-2005, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by patrice

I am about to purchase my first pair of progressives.
........................ I'm overwhelmed!!! i'm apprehensive about buying online but the cost is at least 1/2 of what i would otherwise pay.

Very short answer ...........................

Progressive lenses of any make or source have large areas of distortion. Therefore it takes careful measuring where to place the good parts so you can enjoy a good and happy vision.

It needs a good professional to measure up and down and side ways to place the lenses properly so you can see through the good parts of the lens.

Now make up your own mind if you want to purchase on line and then have to go and buy another pair at full price.

**Fezz** · 02-20-2005, 08:05 AM

Patrice, i have a bunch of curtains that i need to have sewn. Oh, i was wondering if you also do pants? I need some hems put in. I would love to give you the business since you are just starting out and all. WAIT....HOLD THE PRESSES. I see that there is a mail order company in Wisconsin that is much cheaper then you. Oh, I am sure you would do a much better job, but really..its only sewing. I am confused though with all the thread choices and will they really measure right to get the hems in the right place? Who cares, at least they are CHEAPER!!!!! Sadly I must say that i hope your internet buying experience turns into a nightmare and brings you only frustration and lost time, money and effort. Good luck, you'll need it!

Fezz
:cheers:

**chip anderson** · 02-20-2005, 08:56 AM

Patrice: We gave you our best advise, we can do no more, go ahead on. And yes, I do feel if you can afford to live in California even with a disability, you can afford ligitimate outlets for spectacles.

**patrice** · 02-20-2005, 11:28 AM

Now that a couple of you have KINDLY explained the issues here, i understand more where you are coming from. i still don't feel all the nasty underhanded comments are necessary, why take out your hostilities on me? I don't know how all this works. geez. Why the nasty comment about Berkeley??????? Why is that necessary? My initial question was about the Shamir lenses which only a couple of you responded too, everyone else is busy slamming me for considering buying on-line. Mr Anderson where do you live? Idaho? North dakota? Or maybe you are not even in the US, and think you know about Ca from some newsgroup. Yes i am disabled, yes i live in Ca, and yes IT IS DIFFICULT. So what should i do? Uproot myself so i can afford to buy a decent pair of Pals? C'mon now. Am i a bad person because i am disabled and live in Ca.? What is the problem here? I can get the frames i want online for $10.00. I'm am concerned about the fit, i can have them sent to me, try them, if they fit send them back.( They are the same measurements as on my bifocal frames, admittedly thats only a small consolation). Do i prefer to do this? No. So should i instead pay $150 for frames i don't like? Believe it or not I have been searching locally intermittantly for about a year. Why is it so hard to get round frames????? My question was will progressives help my personal needs, ie sewing 10-12 hours a day. Again only a couple people answered this. i understand what you are saying about the Pals needing better measurements, (i did get my PD etc from my last eyeglass purchaser). So if i can't afford $500 to buy locally, which is the wiser thing, what options do i have???? Go without apparently, which is why after one year I still have not made the jump. Please- don't be so mean to me, honestly i'm not trying to offend anyone by trying to get what i need that is within my budget. Your backlash is hurtful. You can express your concerns about buying on-line without nailing someone to the wall...or i would hope.

**Ryan** · 02-20-2005, 11:37 AM

Good luck on your new glasses. $10 frames? Wow. I hope they last. Good luck and I hope they last for 10 days, sorry, I mean 10 years.

**For-Life** · 02-20-2005, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by patrice

Now that a couple of you have KINDLY explained the issues here, i understand more where you are coming from. i still don't feel all the nasty underhanded comments are necessary, why take out your hostilities on me? I don't know how all this works. geez. Why the nasty comment about Berkeley??????? Why is that necessary? My initial question was about the Shamir lenses which only a couple of you responded too, everyone else is busy slamming me for considering buying on-line. Mr Anderson where do you live? Idaho? North dakota? Or maybe you are not even in the US, and think you know about Ca from some newsgroup. Yes i am disabled, yes i live in Ca, and yes IT IS DIFFICULT. So what should i do? Uproot myself so i can afford to buy a decent pair of Pals? C'mon now. Am i a bad person because i am disabled and live in Ca.? What is the problem here? I can get the frames i want online for $10.00. I'm am concerned about the fit, i can have them sent to me, try them, if they fit send them back.( They are the same measurements as on my bifocal frames, admittedly thats only a small consolation). Do i prefer to do this? No. So should i instead pay $150 for frames i don't like? Believe it or not I have been searching locally intermittantly for about a year. Why is it so hard to get round frames????? My question was will progressives help my personal needs, ie sewing 10-12 hours a day. Again only a couple people answered this. i understand what you are saying about the Pals needing better measurements, (i did get my PD etc from my last eyeglass purchaser). So if i can't afford $500 to buy locally, which is the wiser thing, what options do i have???? Go without apparently, which is why after one year I still have not made the jump. Please- don't be so mean to me, honestly i'm not trying to offend anyone by trying to get what i need that is within my budget. Your backlash is hurtful. You can express your concerns about buying on-line without nailing someone to the wall...or i would hope.

Okay, here is the thing. If you are currently having trouble with your old glasses then it can be the old measurement; therefore, that PD might not be completely correct. Addtitionally, what about the segment height? Is your PD Monocular or Biocular?

If you like the frames then buy the frames and then get an independent to do the lenses. Also, I should note that I do not have one frame in my store that costs me $10, so I would becareful of the purchase. As the old saying goes, buyer beware.

But here is the thing. You do not need to spend $500 on your glasses from an independent. You can go to an independent and pay a lot less. Sure, you will not be buying all the bells and whistles, but they will do the job for you plus some.

Edit - I forgot to tell you. You cannot fit a frame through the mail. Frames need to be properly fit behind the ear, on the nose, and so forth. It is impossible to do that through the mail.

Edit - Also, could we get the name, number, and address of your optician. I think they might be doing something illegal.

**Chris Ryser** · 02-20-2005, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by patrice

My question was will progressives help my personal needs, ie sewing 10-12 hours a day.................................Please- don't be so mean to me, ..............

patrice, I consider myself a properly qualified optician having learned the profession when there were no automatic machines and measuring instruments. I learned a long time ago that only glasses when properly fittet would give maximum vision for the prescription made out for you.

In the old days you would have the quacks that would operate a mail order house for such items and today you run into the cyber retailers as pharmacies that advertise that you dont even need a prescription. Cyber opticians are also quacks.......because they give a damn if you will see with their product or not, they can not be ethical because the make a product without knowing if it will do the job. The precription might be measuring the right power but the placement of the lenses can only be done by somebody with expierience phisically looking at you and taking the right measurements.

You say that you make a living sewing 10-12 hours a day. Sewing is actually fine work requiring good vision, just about as much as working 12 hours on a computer screen, while you are looking at the cloth material all day long. I would bet that you want maximum vision so that you dont tire out too fast because of eye strain and so forth.

Progressive lenses have very small reading parts and anybody who has worn regular bifocals will have problems adapting, which makes it even worse in you case wantiong to buy without proper and right placement in the frame.

Opticians while specialised, will, like like all other commercial ventures always try to sell high end products because there is more profit in it. I am sure that in Los Angeles you will find some decent optician that will sell you a pair of well made glasses at a decent price. The you will be happy and able to work properly.

Furthermore you should forgive our forum members who see red when cyber quack opticians make inroads into their territory they have build up over many years, when they have served their clientele with good professional judgement and success, or are on the way of doing it.

Hope my anser has cleare the air a bit, and now it is up to you to decide which way you want to go. I just would like to hear from you a few weeks down the road, one way or the other, if you choose to make the purchase over the internet.
Best regards,

**chip anderson** · 02-20-2005, 01:24 PM

One last note: I don't think you will find a single contientious optician, even in Berkley that will not make a house call for both measurements and delivery if requested. We all have an assortment of inexpensive frames, most of us will allow you to use your own frame from another source if it isn's such a piece of junk that we fear it may fall apart in a short time.
We can all advise you on the best lenses for your needs and the relative costs of various brands.
Chip

**drk** · 02-20-2005, 01:43 PM

Short and sweet:

We're sorry for the bile.

No one here is mad at you.

We are mad at someone who *******izes a profession for a buck: the on-line "optician".

Most opticians have to have a license by a state, like a Dr. or pharmacist. Why do you think state legislatures have done that? To protect the public from shoddy health care.

The internet is rife with examples of how you can work around the system. Go ahead and take the risk, if you feel it's worth it.

It's galling, even though you are ignorant of what you do, that a person would try to get free professional advice while circumventing the rules of the game we've all agreed to play by (citizens, government, professionals).

**Joann Raytar** · 02-20-2005, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by patrice

Now that a couple of you have KINDLY explained the issues here, i understand more where you are coming from. i still don't feel all the nasty underhanded comments are necessary, why take out your hostilities on me? I don't know how all this works.

You're right; we shouldn't be taking our hostilities out on you. At least you are taking the effort to find out how things work first and you deserve some compliments because you asked first before buying.

I will only offer this advice ... it is unlikely that you will find a good optician fitting progressive lenses without actually fitting you in person. Remember the old cliche "buyer beware." If you do decide to purchase online, make sure that the optician has a return policy; even in person fittings some times require redo's so it is also a possiblity when using mail order.

**karen** · 02-20-2005, 04:57 PM

patrice, if you are wearing these glasses to sew all day, it might make more sense to wear some kind of occupational lens as opposed to a progressive. There are lenses that are more "task specific" that would probably serve you better for your work needs. Either a bifocal set up for intermediate and near (like machine distance and closer) that you could have set up with a very wide segment or an occupational lens like the Shamir Office or Sola Access. I know it may seem that some of our responses were hostile but sadly our industry has some people that don't have the experience neccesary to always do the job well. I can say that you usually get what you pay for in the optical industry so be careful! The reason you are having trouble finding round frames could be that they aren't considered "stylish" anymore, not your concern perhaps but one of the reasons you don't see them out and about. Also, make sure your lenses fit-in those round frames the lens can turn which would be a disaster in a progressive! If you feel brave enough, post back and let us know how they turn out!

**chip anderson** · 02-20-2005, 06:31 PM

Patrice:

Look at this through our eyes. You have said that you are too cheap to buy from us or even ligitimate sources but you ask our advise on the best product to buy from an unethical source. Now even in the South where we are raised to be polite gentlemen, this is a rude question deserving a rude answer.

It's cheaper down the street, I'll buy there but I want shop your stock so they can order it for me, just don't make it.

No appoligy here.

**patrice** · 02-20-2005, 06:42 PM

Okay, i'm not going to do it. if progressives are not even what i actually need, why even take a risk. (Thank you for those who actually gave me valid information). Maybe i'll just get those frames with single vision sunglasses, which was my initial intent. Even that makes me nervous, but honestly, i simply can not afford these local prices. i will keep saving my money and keep struggling as I have been with the fatigue from my eyes while sewing. Maybe I can go to the University of Berkeley Optometry department (hey, Berkeley has a well respected University, imagine that, even has several nobel peace prize winners)which is where I got my exam before, and see what they can offer. Berkeley is, after all, known to be one of the best areas to live if you are disabled. hey Mr Anderson can your town say that? In retrospect i should have just asked about the lenses, never mentioning on-line, maybe then people like Ryan wouldn't continue to be rude. (couldn't resist a dig, could you Ryan- very nice, appreciate it, you must be a wonderful person). Really it does not reflect well on your group as a whole to lash out with such venum. I'm not representing the world who buys opticial supplies online. I imagine none of you ever shop at Costco, or target or wal-mart, you sure wouldn't want to be caught trying to catch a bargain. I'll tell you one thing, when I can afford to get Pals, if that ever happens, i will be sure i get a courteous , polite optician to help me, not like some represented here. You all scare me. I'm not trying to rip anybody off or take anyones business or do anything unethical, i truly am not. Of course if i can find an affordable local price i would much rather do that. I was overwhelmed when i read thru your forums as to what was available in the optical market. I thought this forum was for information, not condemnation. Lighten up. What you write here really affects people. Hostile nasty dings are hurtful. You're suppose to be professionals, right? Don't slay the dragon, slay the dragon slayer.

**Cowboy** · 02-20-2005, 07:05 PM

Patrice,

I am an optician in NH and although I am on the opposite coast, I am sure there are other opticians out there that may offer a service that I do for my fixed income clients, A Payment Plan. I would rather take a risk of offering a payment plan and provide them with exceptional quality and service than simply providing their Rx and having them go on-line. All of us professionals on Optiboard take our work very seriously, hence all the resposes, good and bad, you have received. Yes, it is nerve-racking to us when we have to provide advice for someone who wants to save money and is using the internet to do so. We (the professionals) know that you will NEVER get the proper eyewear to meet your needs - especially as a seamstress, by using on-line services. Take my or anyone's advice, try your locals first and see if you can get a payment plan, or some assistance to meet your fixed income, you might be surprised at the results.

Best wishes,

Cowboy