was Jesus a Liberal?

**hcjilson** · 08-21-2004, 02:51 PM

It was!

It was also pushing the pen for Confusious- the Koran, Old Testament,etc. etc.

**mrba** · 08-22-2004, 05:52 PM

Was divine inspiration pen pushing for confucious? Hmmmmmm....

**karen** · 08-22-2004, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Spexvet

But your perspective is the same as suicide bombers have. It’s probably the justification used by those who murder doctors who perform abortions. So, of you are correct, then that is not the Christ that I would follow. Maybe I am the one who is not Christian, after all.

Somehow I missed this the last time I read through this thread. I am trying to figure out how you arrived at the conclusion that what you said above is what I believe in and in all honesty am so flabbergasted that I am not sure what to say. My original point was (at least I thought it was) that I agreed with the part of the article you quoted about Jesus being likely a social liberal but He would be dissapointed in how our worship of other "gods" takes away from our faith. Somehow you have taken bits and pieces of my answers to specific issues and decided that you know what I believe. When you have read every single thread I have posted here about what I believe in and then sat down and had a few theological discussions with me, then you can make an educated guess about where I am coming from. But to lump me in with suicide bombers and doctor murderers is out of line. I have obviously done a horrible job of communicating with you and am torn between apologizing and wanting to punch you in the nose. Tell you what-when we are both in heaven we can sit down and ask Jesus what He meant by all the Scriptures we all cited and He can straighten us out.

**Spexvet** · 08-23-2004, 02:30 PM

Karen,
Sorry to have offended you. It was not my intention.

Originally Posted by karen

Somehow I missed this the last time I read through this thread. I am trying to figure out how you arrived at the conclusion that what you said above is what I believe in and in all honesty am so flabbergasted that I am not sure what to say.

In this thread, when I have defended my position that Jesus would not condone violence/war/killing, you respond with:

"I think it would depend on who was being killed and for what reason. The way I read the book of Revelation quite a few people will likely die during the time of the Tribulation-believers and non believers. I suppose the case could be made that Jesus would not support that but I think He sees that is what is coming and will let it happen.
In the Old Testament people who tried to get rid of Israel tended to end up dead. Considering they are God's chosen people and He helped them to win a war or two I think there are circumstances where He feels it is necessary. And since I think God and Jesus are one...(along with the Holy Spirit of course)"
"Spexvet, if you have a chance look up Matthew 10:34

"God has punished many nations for attacking His favorite people (the Jews) and since Muslim extremists tend to not mind attacking Jews... ( NO I am not saying God is punishing them)
I think it was safe to say Saddam was not a fan of Jews. "

"I think the atrocities Saddam perpetuated on his own people were horrible and should have been stopped. In other threads that took place before you started posting I have said I am not wild about us still being there but I supported the initial decision to be there."

I am sorry if I mistook these quotes as taking the opposing position, that there is violence that Jesus would condone. I was merely interpreting the quotes, and I haven't decided that I know what you believe. The point I made:

"But your perspective is the same as suicide bombers have. It’s probably the justification used by those who murder doctors who perform abortions."

is valid. It's the belief that the violence they do is sanctioned by a higher power, and that it is ok to do this violence. There is certainly a wide variation of degree to which this belief can be held. I was not "lumping you in" with these people. Correctly or incorrectly, I was lumping you in with Chip and mrba.

**karen** · 08-23-2004, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Spexvet

I am sorry if I mistook these quotes as taking the opposing position, that there is violence that Jesus would condone. I was merely interpreting the quotes, and I haven't decided that I know what you believe. The point I made:

"But your perspective is the same as suicide bombers have. It’s probably the justification used by those who murder doctors who perform abortions."

is valid. It's the belief that the violence they do is sanctioned by a higher power, and that it is ok to do this violence. There is certainly a wide variation of degree to which this belief can be held. I was not "lumping you in" with these people. Correctly or incorrectly, I was lumping you in with Chip and mrba.

I don't mind being lumped in with Chip and mrba, it looked to me like you lumped all of us in with suicide bombers etc-I just happened to be the one who got offended. My point in the posts of mine you referenced was about GOD/JESUS committing/sanctioning violence. Thw way I read it He has done so and will continue to do so when the situation merits it and He gets to decide. Hence my point about Him not coming in peace, Him punishing people who attacked Israel etc.

God has punished many nations for attacking His favorite people (the Jews) and since Muslim extremists tend to not mind attacking Jews... ( NO I am not saying God is punishing them)
I think it was safe to say Saddam was not a fan of Jews. "

I can see how this particular post could be misconstrued. If I try to be objective I can see how the bits and pieces of some of what I said could be put together to draw some of the conclusions you arrived at. I will obviously have to do a better job in the future of explaining myself although I am feeling the need to take a break from these theological discussions. When I spend a large part of my Sunday afternoon fulminating it's time to take a step back and reevaluate. Interestingly enough we had a survivor of the attack on the Pentagon speak at church yesterday-Lt Col. Brian Birdwell who has written a book called "Refined by Fire"- sort of put it all in perspective for me.

**mrba** · 08-23-2004, 07:31 PM

I don't mind being lumped in with Chip and mrba, it looked to me like you lumped all of us in with suicide bombers

Sometimes from my point of view, people treat me as a suicide bomber.

**Spexvet** · 08-23-2004, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by mrba

Sometimes from my point of view, people treat me as a suicide bomber.

I can always count on you for an entertaining quip, mrba. Thanks, again.

**Spexvet** · 08-24-2004, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Steve Machol

Not only was that insulting to other people's beliefs, but Paul didn't write Revelations. St. John the Evangelist (or the Devine to some) did.

I stand corrected.
I didn't mean to insult. I meant to offend. My goal was to jar Optiboarders into responding. This thread has had over 600 views, yet only a few of us have posted. And only one (me) has posted an unambiguous opinion.

From your response, I think you have a pretty strong opinion about this thread. So step up to the plate, Steve. Would the Holy Trinity, as you understand it, support Geaorge W. Bush and his war?

**rinselberg** · 08-24-2004, 08:28 AM

The premise ...

Originally Posted by Spexvet

Would the Holy Trinity, as you understand it, support George W. Bush and his war?

the question ...

Originally Posted by rinselberg

Could it be that the Holy Trinity would consider this question (the DoD missions in Iraq and/or Afghanistan) outside of their proper jurisdiction -- as something other than a spiritual or religious matter?

and the answer ...

Originally Posted by Spexvet

No.

**Spexvet** · 08-24-2004, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by rinselberg

Could it be that the Holy Trinity would consider this question (the DoD missions in Iraq and/or Afghanistan) outside of their proper jurisdiction -- as something other than a spiritual or religious matter?

No

**Shutterbug** · 08-27-2004, 07:14 AM

Don't you think that much of what we see happening in the world is in direct response to the original challenge Satan made to God in Eden? He claimed that people will only worship God if he gives gives gives to them and protects them. He further implied that given the chance, he could turn all of mankind against God, and that he could govern the earth as well or better than God could. Now of course, God could have just flicked him out of existence like an annoying fly, but for his own soveriegnty and for the benefit of onlookers, he allowed the challenge and gave Satan free reign to prove his allegations. What has transpired since is a result of the "proof" offered, and is showing clearly that mankind is not capable of self government, and Satan is hell bent on our destruction. Can it improve by further efforts by man? History tells us "no". The good news is that God does not intend to allow Satan unlimited time. The answer is clear to all who examine the issue and soon God will force compliance to his laws and abolish all human government (Daniel chapter 2). All we really need to do is choose sides.

(Does the board have a spell checker? I'm sure I need it! LOL)

Shutterbug

**chip anderson** · 08-27-2004, 07:51 AM

For spell-check cut your posts, paste them in word perfect (or just do them there first), spell check, cut from word perfect and paste back in optiboards.

Chip

**Spexvet** · 08-27-2004, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Shutterbug

Don't you think that much of what we see happening in the world is in direct response to the original challenge Satan made to God in Eden? He claimed that people will only worship God if he gives gives gives to them and protects them. He further implied that given the chance, he could turn all of mankind against God, and that he could govern the earth as well or better than God could. Now of course, God could have just flicked him out of existence like an annoying fly, but for his own soveriegnty and for the benefit of onlookers, he allowed the challenge and gave Satan free reign to prove his allegations. What has transpired since is a result of the "proof" offered, and is showing clearly that mankind is not capable of self government, and Satan is hell bent on our destruction. Can it improve by further efforts by man? History tells us "no". The good news is that God does not intend to allow Satan unlimited time. The answer is clear to all who examine the issue and soon God will force compliance to his laws and abolish all human government (Daniel chapter 2). All we really need to do is choose sides.

(Does the board have a spell checker? I'm sure I need it! LOL)

Shutterbug

I'm going interptret "much of what we see happening in the world" as a reference to violence and strife. No, I believe that this strife is caused by the disparity between rich and poor, and the habit we have of separating ourselves into groups and those groups fighting to proove themselves best. Black/white, northerner/southerner, Christian/Moslem/Jew/Hindu/Bhuddist, nationalism, stinking Dallas Cowboy fan/any other NFL team fan, liberal/conservative, Democrat/Republican. We label ourselves, then fight it out.

**Shutterbug** · 08-27-2004, 05:25 PM

I'm going interptret "much of what we see happening in the world" as a reference to violence and strife. No, I believe that this strife is caused by the disparity between rich and poor, and the habit we have of separating ourselves into groups and those groups fighting to proove themselves best. Black/white, northerner/southerner, Christian/Moslem/Jew/Hindu/Bhuddist, nationalism, stinking Dallas Cowboy fan/any other NFL team fan, liberal/conservative, Democrat/Republican. We label ourselves, then fight it out.

I agree. Those are part of the symptoms I was talking about. God does not see nor recognize the lines we draw as boundaries. Everyone is equal, and our little squabbles are of little importance to him ;)

Chip - thanks! I feel much better now that I know my spelling is correct!:cheers: