Food for thought re: Iraq

[karen]

This is a letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army National Guard, serving in Iraq:

As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I
wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media.
They have done a very poor job of covering everything that has
happened. I am sorry that I have not been able to visit all of you
during my two week leave back home.

And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you.
This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently:
(Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that
your paper is producing.)

* Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded
from ships faster.
*The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first
time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did
before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to
35% before the war.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city
councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by
side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques
to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the
first time in 30 years.

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there.

I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and
in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about
but they hope their children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq
and I challenge anyone, anywhere to dispute me on these facts. So If
you happen to run into John Kerry, be sure to give him my email
address and send him to Denison, Iowa.

This soldier will set him straight. If you are like me and very
disgusted with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed,
email this to a friend and let them know there are good things
happening.

Ray Reynolds, SFC Iowa Army National Guard
234th Signal Battalion

[chm2023]

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/rayreynolds.htm

The 234th's web site notes that this soldier did write this e-mail, but that there are "errors" in it.

[For-Life]

I also do not want to take away from the what the soldiers there are doing, because they are very brave for doing what they are doing, but what makes Iraq different from other countries suffering in poverty and harsh dictators? What about Congo where the ruling government has actually been known to eat the people they have slayed?

[Jana Lewis]

Hmmm..... makes you wonder why our so many of our soilders are still being killed daily.

It just figures that this e-mail has made the rounds..... people truley want to believe in what we are doing there. I guess we all need a little hope in these trying times. :hammer:

[Jana Lewis]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040614/ap_on_re_mi...

The blast, during the morning rush hour near busy Tahrir Square, was the second vehicle bombing in Baghdad in as many days amid an upsurge of bloodshed in the capital only two weeks before the formal end of the U.S.-led occupation.


Iraq (news - web sites)'s interior minister said he believed foreigners carried out the attack, and Prime Minister Iyad Allawi accused Jordanian-born terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi of trying to disrupt the transfer of sovereignty. Al-Zarqawi, believed to have contacts with al-Qaida, is accused in last month's decapitation of American Nicholas Berg.


The chaotic scene Monday was reminiscent of the violence and anti-American hatred that accompanied the March 31 slaying in Fallujah of four Americans, whose bodies were mutilated and hung from a Euphrates river bridge.


Moments after the thunderous blast, which shook the heart of the capital, young men raced into the street, hurling stones at the flaming wreckage, looting personal belongings of the victims and chanting slogans against the occupation.



Iraqi youth cheer and shout close to a burning vehicle they believe belonged to foreigners following a car bomb in a main shopping area of Baghdad.(AFP/Cris Bouroncle)


He who keeps silent is assumed to consent.

[karen]

OK-well I am home sick today so I have too much time on my hands-here is what is true and what isn't

* Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
3.5 MILLION ACTUALLY IMMUNIZED
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
TRUE
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
TRUE
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded
from ships faster.
TRUE
*The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
FALSE
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first
time ever in Iraq.
FALSE
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did
before the war.
FALSE
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to
35% before the war.
TRUE
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city
councils are in place.
FALSE
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
UNPROVEN
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by
side with US soldiers.
MOSTLY FICTION
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques
to prevent the spread of germs.
TRUE
* An interim constitution has been signed.
TRUE
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
TRUE BUT MISLEADING
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the
first time in 30 years.
TRUE

Thanks for the website chm-knew someone would know where to look it up ;) . As I have stated in earlier posts I am not wild about us STILL being there (I did agree with why we went) but at least some good things have come from this. Everybody needs hope!

[chm2023]

Karen, if you're sick you should be watching TV or reading magazines while your husband/children cater to your every whim!!! This Iraq stuff is tough to handle when feeling well!! Hope you feel better soon.

[mrba]

Karen,

Thank you for highlighting the positive things. I guess an education and fresh water are not a priority to the liberal minded on this board.

They should have eaten cake I suppose, laden with maggots of course.

I must point out some of your falses are true however.

Just one, Where some enjoyed electricity 4 hours/day now All enjoy it 16 hours/day. That satement for all intents was true.

OOPs I have to edit myself, The statement said 2 times the electrical power (False), More like 5 times!!!


Jana:
As far as the burning car with caption, we did something similar in high school. I'm not impressed with your point.


mrba

[Judy Canty]

You made car bombs in high school? Did your parents know about this? My son graduates tomorrow and there hasn't been a single car bomb at his school all year. Where did I go wrong?

[walt]

Where some enjoyed electricity 4 hours/day now All enjoy it 16 hours/day.

The little hedonists. And just where do they apply the electrodes?

[Jana Lewis]

Karen,

Thank you for highlighting the positive things. I guess an education and fresh water are not a priority to the liberal minded on this board.

They should have eaten cake I suppose, laden with maggots of course.

I must point out some of your falses are true however.

Just one, Where some enjoyed electricity 4 hours/day now All enjoy it 16 hours/day. That satement for all intents was true.

OOPs I have to edit myself, The statement said 2 times the electrical power (False), More like 5 times!!!


Jana:
As far as the burning car with caption, we did something similar in high school. I'm not impressed with your point.


mrba

Well... I wasn't trying to impress you. :D

I don't think it's "normal" to have car bombs going off and anti-American sentiment echoing through the streets. Maybe there are alot of Iraqi's who are happy with the U.S led occupation, what I was trying to point out was that there are plenty that don't want us there.

Education and fresh water are a huge priority.....That's great! I would also like to make sure that MY drinking water will remain fresh, and that MY educational systems stay intact.

[karen]

I don't think it's "normal" to have car bombs going off and anti-American sentiment echoing through the streets. Maybe there are alot of Iraqi's who are happy with the U.S led occupation, what I was trying to point out was that there are plenty that don't want us there.

Jana, I agree that car bombs are not normal-althought I think it is fair to say that they are more prevalent in the Middle East as a form of protest than here. I also agree that there are people who do not want us there. One of the reasons I posted that initially is that it seems that all we ever hear about is the anti-American sentiment over there. I think there are people who DO want at least to be liberated even though they may object to who is doing it and how it started. I will even go so far as to say that the Bush campaign should be talking about the successes-if I were running I would-at least then we would hear about them. Unfortunately, my friends in the White House seem to keep giving the media all these opportunities to talk about how they are screwing up. I agree with chm's post in another thread that Colin Powell must be losing his mind...(wonder what would have happened if he had run or Alan Keyes had won the Primary )

[mrba]

QUOTE]I don't think it's "normal" to have car bombs going off and anti-American sentiment echoing through the streets.[/QUOTE]

Watts, Rodney King... worse than car bombs is normal here. I guess we are just a little more high and mighty in our own narcissistic world?

Maybe there are a lot of Iraqi's who are happy with the U.S led occupation, what I was trying to point out was that there are plenty that don't want us there.

I think it is high time that someone points out whether or not we are wanted or not is irrelevant. American is a sovereign country with its own agenda, and I would like to be the first to say to Hell with everyone who disagrees.



Of course after due diplomacy and peaceful discourse, if it comes down to us or them I choose us. I am so tired of hearing about the popularity contest regarding my country. Sometimes the opinion others hold of you is not what you should believe.

Education and fresh water are a huge priority.....That's great! I would also like to make sure that MY drinking water will remain fresh, and that MY educational systems stay intact.

A very intelligent and valid point. My first suggestion in ensuring these goals that I agree with is to vote the *******s out. All of them. Republicrats and Demicans alike!

[Joann Raytar]

Watts, Rodney King... worse than car bombs is normal here...

Come to Connecticut for UConn's Spring Weekend if you want to see kids in this country celebrating around burning cars.

UConn fans riot(poverty, no, oppression, no, injustice, no, just drunk spoiled rich Demo-brats)
Toronto Star ^| 4/6/04 | staff


Posted on 04/06/2004 4:33:47 PM PDT by Diddle E. Squat


STORRS, Conn. (AP) — Police arrested 35 people after University of Connecticut fans started fires and overturned cars in celebration of the men's basketball team winning its second NCAA championship.

University police said a dozen fires were set outside and two cars were overturned at the Celeron Square apartment complex about 1.5 kilometres north of campus following Monday night's victory. There were no reports of serious injuries. Campus police reported 19 arrests. State police said they made at least 16. Charges ranged from inciting a riot to breach of peace.

[Jana Lewis]

Poll of Iraqis Reveals Anger Toward U.S.
By JOHN SOLOMON
The Associated Press
Tuesday, June 15, 2004; 11:03 PM

WASHINGTON - A poll of Iraqis commissioned by the U.S.-governing authority has provided the Bush administration a stark picture of anti-American sentiment - more than half of Iraqis believe they would be safer if U.S. troops simply left.

The poll, commissioned by the Coalition Provisional Authority last month but not released to the American public, also found radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is surging in popularity, 92 percent of Iraqis consider the United States an occupying force and more than half believe all Americans behave like those portrayed in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse photos.

--snip--

The coalition's confidence rating in May stood at 11 percent, down from 47 percent in November, while coalition forces had just 10 percent support. Nearly half of Iraqis said they felt unsafe in their neighborhoods.

And 55 percent of Iraqis reported to the pollsters they would feel safer if U.S. troops immediately left, nearly double the 28 percent who felt that way in January. Forty-one percent said Americans should leave immediately, and 45 percent said they preferred for U.S. forces to leave as soon as a permanent Iraqi govermnment is installed.

--snip--

Anger at Americans was evident in other aspects of the poll, including a rapid rise in popularity for al-Sadr, the Muslim cleric who has been leading insurgents fighting U.S.-led coalition forces.

The poll reported that 81 percent of Iraqis said they had an improved opinion of al- Sadr in May from three months earlier, and 64 percent said the acts of his insurgents had made Iraq more unified.

--snip--

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44916-2004Jun15_2.html

Prof.Cole has a better analysis of the poll, at:--
http://www.juancole.com/2004_06_01_juancole_archive.html#1087361448019...

from his I'll take one segment and elaborate on what movements/parties they are aligned with (in parenthesis):--

-----------------

Here is the breakdown of Iraqi politicians with regard to the percentage that say they support or strongly support them:

Ali Sistani: 70% -- (independent)
Muqtada al-Sadr 67% -- (independent)
Ibrahim Jaafari 58% -- (al-Da'awa)
Ahmad al-Kubaisi 55% -- (Sunni Board of Muslim `Ulama`)
Abdul Aziz al-Hakim 51% -- (Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq)
Harith al-Dhari 45% -- (Sunni Board of Muslim `Ulama`)
Muhsin Abdul Hamid 45% -- (Sunni, collaborationist Iraqi branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, Iraqi Islamic Party)
Muhammad Bahr al-Ulum 44% -- (al-Da'awa)
Adnan Pachachi 41%
Abdul Karim al-Muhammadawi 31% -- (Iraqi Hizbu'llah)
Muwaffaq al-Rubaie 29%
Iyad Allawi 23% -- (CIA, Mi6)
Jalal Talabani 21% -- (CIA, PUK)
Massoud Barzani 19% -- (CIA, KDP)

[rinselberg]

Let's welcome today's guest host Secretary of Defense DONALD RUMSFELD! OK, Alex, for $2400: T-O-N-G-A

What is a 748 square kilometer archipeligo in the South Pacific that has contributed to Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan and to Operation Iraqi Freedom?

Sources: U.S. Central Command on the web and CIA --The World Factbook.



DID YOU KNOW?

Operation Iraqi Freedom has delivered more than 1,000,000 pieces of reading material to Iraqis as part of the Coalition's "Literacy for Prosperity" civil affairs program. Example (click on):

Building English and Arabic Literacy: Lesson 1.01

[rinselberg]

I also do not want to take away from the what the soldiers there are doing ... but what makes Iraq different from other countries suffering in poverty and harsh dictators?

The Kurdish and both the Sunni and (I believe) the Shiite populations of Iraq are more susceptible to recruitment by AQ (AlQaeda) and AQ aligned terrorist groups than people in the Congo (for example). Not that people in the Congo or almost anywhere else cannot be recruited by the AQ types -- they have. But I think all the data that is on hand suggests that Iraqis are more like the previous generations of recruits that have been seen.

There was also Iraq's prior history with WMD that made it a special concern. Some have been trying to forward the critique that the U.S. and its allies should have bided their time until (another) authorizing U.N. resolution could have been secured before invading Iraq. I am no expert to be sure, but I wonder how long it would take for a regime like Saddam's to cook up some crude bio or chemical WMD -- if they already had the knowledge to do it? (As they had previously demonstrated.) Such materials would not have to be technically weaponized for battlefield use. They could emerge later for use against civilians or coalition forces in the kind of prolonged insurgency that we are now seeing waged with small arms and conventional explosives.

And there's another consideration that puts Iraq in the forefront of our international concerns: What is a thick, flammable, yellow-to-black mixture of gaseous, liquid, and solid hydrocarbons that occurs naturally beneath the earth's surface, can be separated into fractions including natural gas, gasoline, naphtha, kerosene, fuel and lubricating oils, paraffin wax, and asphalt and is used as raw material for a wide variety of derivative products? U.S. energy diversification: To be driven by international scientific, engineering, economic and social concerns? Or should the terms be dictated by the likes of Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Laden? I have "pitched" in dozens of my other posts that Iraq was on a course that could jeopardize the stability of all of the nearby oil exporting nations -- including Saudi Arabia, all of the smaller Gulf states and Iran.

[Pete Hanlin]

Hope you are feeling better, Karen... I'll jump in with another conservative viewpoint if you don't mind.

The poll reported that 81 percent of Iraqis said they had an improved opinion of al- Sadr in May from three months earlier, and 64 percent said the acts of his insurgents had made Iraq more unified.
The fact that the Iraqis want us out and have an opinion- any opinion- tells me we accomplished the task at hand. As you may recall, in the last "election" under Saddam's regime, 100% of the people voted to re-elect Saddam... Considering that occupation by American troops is denounced as being "even worse" than Saddam, its interesting how Iraqis feel more at ease with their self-expression (which is a good thing- a country shouldn't want to have their land governed by a foreign power).

Furthermore, watching the Iraqi delegation march into the Olympics was a sight to see. While the rest of the world feels free to sit back and snipe at the US involvement in Iraq, they also recognize that it is a good thing to see Iraqi athletes representing their own country of their own accord. Its especially heartening to see their soccer team doing so well- considering some of the atrocities to which they were subject under Saddam.

Even at home, however, there seem to be those who just fail to "get it." I note, in particular, one commercial that provides something like the following message: "We could have provided classrooms for all of America's youth, we could have paid for prescription coverage for all of America's elderly, we could have given insurance to all non-covered Americans, and so on... Instead, America spends 10s of billions of dollars alone to rebuild Iraq... Isn't it time America became a "top priority?"

Actually, commercials like this solidify my support of conservativism. Interestingly enough, the very thing the commercial gripes about is the only thing listed in the commercial that the federal government SHOULD be spending money on- national defense. For everyone who complains that we're only "over there" because we have an economic interest- fine then! Our military is doing what they are supposed to do- protecting our interests. In the process, we have desposed of a tyrant and are in the process of helping a country get back on its feet. As for America being a "top priority?" Um, as much as some would like to believe in flower (or at least solar) power, the US runs on oil. It is in our national interest to have stability in the #1 oil producing area of the world.

Finally, America is a priority- go over to central FL right now and you'll see FEMA in action.

[Spexvet]

Actually, commercials like this solidify my support of conservativism. Interestingly enough, the very thing the commercial gripes about is the only thing listed in the commercial that the federal government SHOULD be spending money on- national defense. For everyone who complains that we're only "over there" because we have an economic interest- fine then! Our military is doing what they are supposed to do- protecting our interests. In the process, we have desposed of a tyrant and are in the process of helping a country get back on its feet. As for America being a "top priority?" Um, as much as some would like to believe in flower (or at least solar) power, the US runs on oil. It is in our national interest to have stability in the #1 oil producing area of the world.

Finally, America is a priority- go over to central FL right now and you'll see FEMA in action.

Pete,

You contradict yourself. If the government should only spend money on national defense, it shouldn't spend money on FEMA.

Which is it??????

[Pete Hanlin]

You contradict yourself. If the government should only spend money on national defense, it shouldn't spend money on FEMA.
I wasn't suggesting FEMA is a good thing- I just suggested that those who say America isn't a priority in our spending (misguided or not) only need note FEMA and similar agencies.

Since you raise the issue, however... It has always seemed to me (remember, I'm not a native of Florida) that FLORIDA should take care of its own citizens when hurricanes strike. After all, northern states purchase millions of dollars in snow removal equipment (and road maintenance) to deal with the storms that strike that part of the country. Likewise, the state of Florida should collect a fund (perhaps through a state tax, which would be wildly unpopular) to deal with a recurring threat- hurricanes.

That said, it is encouraging to see all the relief and aid that is being provided to people in devastated areas- whether in our out of Florida. I would argue that programs like FEMA come much closer to "providing for the general welfare" of the people than social programs.

Anyway, wherever possible, such programs should be funded- and operated- by the individual states. Likewise for education, social programs, etc. The rationale, once again, comes down to fiscal accountability (which is exactly why only taxpayers should vote). As long as all the funding for a project is going to come from the state's coffers (and, where possible- from the individual county or township), the residents of the state, county, etc. are going to be keenly interested in fiscal responsibility. However, when funding comes from some ambiguous federal government fund, the interest is focused solely on "getting as much as possible."

[rinselberg]

If you're feeling a little stuffed after perusing all of these "Food for thought re: Iraq" posts, I'd suggest refreshing yourself and clearing your palate with some "Dessert Wine after thinking re: Iraq". No one who is in the habit of posting their latest Op/Ed treatises on Iraq, Afghanistan, the War on Terror, Kerry Vs. Bush and the like should be without access to certain vital reference materials. All you have to do is position your mouse (below) and

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[Spexvet]

You contradict yourself. If the government should only spend money on national defense, it shouldn't spend money on FEMA.
I wasn't suggesting FEMA is a good thing- I just suggested that those who say America isn't a priority in our spending (misguided or not) only need note FEMA and similar agencies.

Since you raise the issue, however... It has always seemed to me (remember, I'm not a native of Florida) that FLORIDA should take care of its own citizens when hurricanes strike. After all, northern states purchase millions of dollars in snow removal equipment (and road maintenance) to deal with the storms that strike that part of the country. Likewise, the state of Florida should collect a fund (perhaps through a state tax, which would be wildly unpopular) to deal with a recurring threat- hurricanes.

First let me put away the paddles. My heart stopped when I read that you would endorse a ttttttttax! I'm better now. I live near Philadelphia, and I don't have a problem helping my fellow Americans. A few years ago, we got plenty of help from some generous sunbelt states after a devastating blizzard. It's like helping family.

That said, it is encouraging to see all the relief and aid that is being provided to people in devastated areas- whether in our out of Florida. I would argue that programs like FEMA come much closer to "providing for the general welfare" of the people than social programs.

Anyway, wherever possible, such programs should be funded- and operated- by the individual states. Likewise for education, social programs, etc. The rationale, once again, comes down to fiscal accountability (which is exactly why only taxpayers should vote). As long as all the funding for a project is going to come from the state's coffers (and, where possible- from the individual county or township), the residents of the state, county, etc. are going to be keenly interested in fiscal responsibility. However, when funding comes from some ambiguous federal government fund, the interest is focused solely on "getting as much as possible."

Pete,
I believe that education and social programs are funded at the state level. They may get grants from the federal government, but most of the money comes locally. Things seem to even out, though. Big cities have more need for certain social programs; in rural areas, farmers are subsidized. The question is who gets to draw the line. I've made the point elsewhere that nobody wants to cut taxes for programs that are in their self-interest. The whole tax issue is about who gets their way - it's a control thing. You wouldn't want to cut taxes that support military.

[Pete Hanlin]

First let me put away the paddles. My heart stopped when I read that you would endorse a ttttttttax! I'm better now. I live near Philadelphia, and I don't have a problem helping my fellow Americans.
Sorry if I induced any apoplexy... I have no problem with taxes per se- neither do I have any problem with social programs- as long as they are levied/spent on the local or state level! Each state should have the ability to set up whatever social programs, education system, etc., they please as long as the citizenry of that state is willing to fund the necessary expenditures.

I feel as if I'm constantly failing to get my point across. Medicaid, welfare, disaster relief, etc. are all things which are to varying degrees noble and worthy of resources- just not with federal dollars. Our government was set up to have very limited federal involvement. Naturally, some federal organizations/oversight is going to be necessary whenever an issue involves more than one state. For example, the FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation) investigates crimes which involve multiple states (but they are not supposed to become involved in crimes committed in one particular state- that is the role of the State Police).

So, to sum- like you, I certainly wish to help my fellow Americans as well. For fellow citizens who live within my state, I would prefer that my own state governmental authority be the resource for such aid- with the understanding that my taxes will support whatever aid is rendered. When fellow Americans from other states are in peril, I would prefer that their own state fund their relief. Naturally, voluntary contributions from citizens of other states (or even directly from state governments, perhaps) is just fine as well- but unless numerous states are involved, the federal government should stay out of it. Likewise, if the fine citizens of California believe in universal health care coverage, that is just peachy- they should figure out a way to pay for all Californians to receive coverage (as well as live with the impact that socialized medicine would have). Of course, when the tax rate in California tops the 40-50% mark, perhaps people will move to Nevada in even larger droves.

Its all about accountability. By their very nature, county governments will be more accountable than state governments, and state governments will be more accountable than the federal government (just as a family is certainly more accountable for their own money than the federal government will be). This is not to say local governments don't make mistakes and have deficits- but they are more responsible with them because of the local nature of the impact (if a local school board spends foolishly and is unable to pay teachers, they have to raise taxes- which creates greater scruitany from the local citizenry- this is how government should operate). This is why I am a Republican, and this is why Democratic ads which criticize the federal government for failing to spend more on what should be state responsibilities have little appeal for me.

I believe that education and social programs are funded at the state level. They may get grants from the federal government, but most of the money comes locally. Things seem to even out, though.
If state governments are the funders of education and social programs, then why- pray tell- do the democrat ads suggest that the money being used to fund a war in Iraq could be spent on reducing class size, raising literacy, or providing insurance? The reason is simple- the Democrat party believes in a very strong and involved federal government. As I've stated, I believe federal spending is bound to be the most irresponsible type of spending. If things "tend to even out" it is only because all the states grab as much money from the federal government as they possibly can. The fact that they grab more than their constituency pays in leads to escalating national debt (I would, btw, argue that things do not "even out" evenly, the "fly over" states most likely get the short teats on the federal expenditure pig).

BTW, I know the federal government has grown under Bush and I'm not happy about it. However, I happen to believe it is quite evident it would grow even faster (and in areas I have no desire to see it grow) under a Kerry (or nearly any Dem) admin.

[shanbaum]

BTW, I know the federal government has grown under Bush and I'm not happy about it. However, I happen to believe it is quite evident it would grow even faster (and in areas I have no desire to see it grow) under a Kerry (or nearly any Dem) admin.

The fact that this hasn't happened in your (adult) lifetime notwithstanding?

[Pete Hanlin]

Yep