Originally Posted by Mike Fretto
Oy.
Oy.
One incident
How about....
This past week marked the 500th anniversary of one of the most horrific, and least remembered, massacres of Jews ever to have taken place on the streets of a major European capital. For three days beginning on April 19, 1506, a bloodthirsty mob goaded on by Dominican preachers roamed throughout Lisbon, the Portuguese capital, hunting down their victims and butchering them with unrestrained glee.
Their prey were the Cristaos Novos ("New Christians"), the thousands of Portuguese Jews who had been forcibly converted to Catholicism by order of King Manuel just a decade before. Some were beaten to death, others were beheaded. Many more were dragged through the streets and tossed alive into burning pyres that had been erected at the Rossio, Lisbon's main square. Anyone who looked Jewish, or was known to have had dealings with Jews, quickly found themselves a target of the murderous throng as well.The Massacre At WormsThe town of Worms lies between the cities of Mannheim and Mainz in the Rhineland. Here in the graveyard of the town lie the bodies of 800 Jews massacred in the name of Christ and the Crusades that began in the year 1096 ADCount Emich of Leiningen led this prelude to the eight campaigns of the Holy Wars that would come to be known as the Crusades. Emich, an important ruler from Swabia, believed he had a cross branded on his flesh that was of Divine origins.In the year 1095 the Catholic Church, aroused by the Muslim encroachments in Palestine, proclaimed a crusade against the Saracens to recover Jerusalem and the Holy Sepulcher. The following year, in the spring of 1096, bands of zealous crusaders led by Monks and soldiers set out for the Holy Land. Many of the crusaders were pious; but there can be no question that many also were runaway serfs, ambitious business men, adventurers, and criminals. As they passed through Germany on their way to Jerusalem this motley crew killed thousands of "infidel" Jews in the larger cities such as Speyer, Worms, Mayence [Mainz], and Cologne.
The site of Clifford's Tower, the keep of York's medieval castle, still bears witness to the most horrifying event in the history of English Jewry. On the night of 16 March 1190, the feast of Shabbat ha-Gadol, the small Jewish community of York was gathered together for protection inside the tower. Rather than perish at the hands of the violent mob that awaited them outside, many of the Jews took their own lives; others died in the flames they had lit, and those who finally surrendered were massacred and murdered.Babi Yar is an area of ravines, now part of Kiev, where 200,000 people were slaughtered, 150,000 of them Jews.
The rabbi recalled the fate of some Jewish children whose parents gave them up to Catholic neighbours in order to save them from death.
The Babi Yar massacre began on September 29, 1941. Jews of Kiev were ordered to go to a place near the area with money and valuables. Over the course of five days, they were executed.
Referring to that last post from Spexvet, I would like to remark what is by far the most recent of the atrocities that were listed: the mass murders at Babi Yar. That crime was perpetrated by Nazis. The other crimes, which were hundreds of years before the 20th century, seem--at least from a casually informed view--to have been straightforward expressions of Christian anti-Semitism, animated in particular by Christian interpretations of the story of the Crucifixion.
The Nazi atrocities are to be distinguished. These were motivated by more than just the legacy of medieval Christian anti-Semitism. That was only part of it. The Nazi crimes were also expressions of the coupling of unrestrained German nationalism with white or Aryan racism.
Many of those who fell in line with the Nazi regime remained sentimentally Christian. At times, Hitler's own rhetoric employed references to recognizably Christian themes. But Heinrich Himmler, leader of the Nazi SS, and Himmler's most loyal followers in the SS, a group that had a major hand in perpetrating the German atrocities of WW2, were a group that did not generally profess adherence to Christianity. Himmler and his followers are known to history as Nazi occultists. They cultivated ideas that were far afield from any traditionally Christian sentiments or pretenses: an aggregate of Aryan racism; "junk science"--including a distinctly Nazi concept of Aryan reincarnation--and "bunk history": a largely fictional racial and cultural heritage that they imagined for themselves, even involving the legendary ancient civilization of Atlantis.
I only want to underline this distinction that sets the 20th century Nazi crimes apart from the anti-Semitic episodes of the Crusaders and their like during medieval Europe.
Last edited by rinselberg; 02-02-2008 at 02:12 AM.
I have family in Ethiopia that tell me there are conversions by coercion there.
Is God considered loving in Islam the way that God is considered loving in light of the revelation of Jesus?
What would happen to a Muslim who converted to being a follower of Christ in Indonesia?Indonensia at 200,000,000 Muslims is the most populated Muslim country in the world...
Explain to me when they were invaded and forced to convert by the sword
That came much later. I am talking 1st Century. What about the guys that walked around with Jesus? How about Paul? How do you explain is ardent opposition turning to radical faith?
The calendar is a separate issue and came much later. Constantine was early 4th century according to what I've read.
There is a fundamental difference between the wrongs committed by the Church and those who claimed to be followers of Christ, and the things done by Muslims.
The things done by the church in the name of Christ were not and are not supported in the scriptures. The inquisition and the crusades and all the rest were horrible wrongs for which the church and it's followers should admit. Those things are not supported by the teachings of Jesus, but were the sinful acts of men.
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew Ch.5)
Islam however, justifies such acts as forced conversions in the 9th Sura.
"9.5": "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
There are examples of violence in all religions. Forget about imperfect followers of religion. You need to look at Jesus' teachings and actions compared to those of Mohammed. Jesus was unarmed, loving and never violent, while Mohammed led an army.
Are the sins of the past relevant to the situation of the present. As of now Muslins are murdering Christians and Jews. As of now Christians are sending aid, missionaries (peasefull) food, and other support to the entire rest of the world.
But then I don't think we owe decendents of slaves reparations for the sins of our great-great grandfathers either. If you do, send them some of your money, not mine.
Chip
When you quote something, please use it in context.
During the time of the revealation of the Sura the small Muslim communit was being killed for not worshipping idols because it was killing the Mecca trade business, they were being killed because Islam taught that all men were created equal and turned the heirachy of the society upside down. Muhammad taught the Muslims not to retaliate till this Sura was revealed.
Now take the following....
Out of context It sounds like Jesus is teaching hate.
Indonesia has come up a few times in this discussion.
Islam in Indonesia
Where "soft Islam" is on the march
Jan 10th 2008 | JAKARTA
From The Economist print editionIndonesia has some [troublesome] radicals but it seems to be following Turkey, with Islamists moderating as they get closer to power
As far as Christianity vs. Islam (etc.) I think that we have to accept that religious freedom as we know it within the U.S. is not universally established around the world. If we travel or work abroad, depending on where we go, we may have to abandon our customary freedom of expression in order to conform with local laws and expectations that restrict the free interchange of religious ideas. No "proselytizing". No converting of anyone from Islam to any other faith.
Can we live with this?
Is there a practical alternative?
Considering the Judeo half of the Judeo/Christianity does not believe in Jesus, I'm confused as to why you're asking this question to prove islam is different from Judeo Christianity.
After reading these well thought out and researched posts, it seem to me like religions are "teams" and the fans are busy defending their titles. Everybody has a right to believe in something and the fundamental goal should be enlightenment and happiness, shouldn't it?
Yes. The problem is that some teams want to force other teams to be on their team, or, at least, behave the way that their team behaves.
When I was in college, there were a group of guys running for student government called the Cookie Party. Their platform was that if elected, they would give every student a cookie then disband the student government.
Actually the fundamental goals should be truth, love and justice. There can be many teams but there can be only one truth.
It seems to me that it's the justice part that gets everybody all riled up. :D
You are right in saying we can believe in what we choose. The question is whether or not what we believe is true. That is what I would call enlightenment, any other sort of "enlightenment" is deception. Happiness at the expense of truth is like a drug induced high, reality comes crashing in and another fix is needed.
Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jews beliefs, the Messiah. There are plenty of Jews who believe that Jesus was/is the Messiah that was/is to come; they consider themselves completed Jews. The rest are still waiting for the promised Messiah.
So, you can go on answering the question now if you like.
Muslims believe in Jesus, not 'some', ALL Muslims believe in Jesus.
BTW, The nickname Messiah is an Arab word meaning 'Messenger' which is also Jesus' nickname in Arabic ;)
I'm not arguing who's religion is right or wrong, I'm am however requesting you dont criticize someone else's.
My intentions were and are not to criticize, but to to distinguish. I try to avoid personal attacks.
I understand that you believe Jesus was a messenger. I believe He is God incarnate just as He claimed.
Sorry, but Jesus was no simple messenger. He's either God, a liar or a lunatic. There's no other option.
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