Distance Learning in Optical Education

[Steve Machol]

As most of you know, more and more Colleges and Universities are setting up Distance Learning programs. Some of these, such as Charter Oak State College (http://www.cosc.edu) and Thomas Edison State College (http://www.tesc.edu/), are well respected and fully accredited programs. One key feaure of these programs is the ability to earn some college credit for relevant and verifiable real-life experiences.

What does everyone think about the opportunity for Distance Learning in Opticianry and Optometry? Is this an idea who's time has come?

If you like the idea, how would you like to see these programs structured?

[stephanie]

I for one totally am for the distance learning. When I was still doing my apprenticeship I looked into one that Roane State was supposed to be doing. They actually were not doing it at that time. Even though I did in fact pass the tests I found being an apprentice a very tough experience and would have loved to be able to do something like this. There is just nothing like having someone teach you rather than relying on a book to learn. I would hope that before anyone goes on the apprentice program they would first consider the distance learning program. Apprentice programs are fine as long as whoever is sponsoring you is a "mentor" and not just signing a paper every six months. I speak from experience.

Steph

[Laurie]

I just got the word yesterday that I'll be talking about this very subject at Expo East 2002.

We have completed two groups of students in our distance learning program for two semesters now (first year courses) and will continue with second year courses via distance ed this fall.

I think the experience has been great. In fact, I would be happy to give you a peek into my courses if you'd like. email me and let me know.

Maybe I should ask our distance ed opticianry students to add to this link?

I am convinced that anything can be taught/learned at a distance. An important part of our program, though, is videotapes of "lectures", and hands on learning in the field. Our students have given us very positive feedback so far. We still have room to grow. The feedback we get from our students is extremely valuable.

Anyone want to quote something for my seminar on learning opticianry via distance learning??

Laurie

[Steve Machol]

Laurie,

Yes, please email me a link to your courses. I'm interested in seeing how you've one this.

Distance Learning can go a long way towards solving one of the big problems in Opticianry Educations - the lack of a suitable program at a nearby school. If done right, Distance Ed. can help us produce more qualified and knowledgeable Opticians than the current system.

[JRS]

I too, think the distance learning is a great idea. Wish it had been around when I was hitting the books.

When I was working on my AS, it was extremely difficult to attend classes on their schedule, yet work full time. Fortunately, I had some background in this business and was able to play catch-up when I returned from business trips. It helped to have a understanding teacher as well.
With so many people trying to juggle a job, raise kids, and get an education, this type of program is the way it has to be. The only downside (I find) is the lack of immediate and personal contact, not only with the teachers, but with your peers while you're learning.

Laurie P, you're great and I know the distance learning program you are involved in, will be a big success.

[Cindy Hamlin]

I think here in Virginia, that distance learning is a valuable option. I had to drive about 3 hours round trip twice a week to attend the Opticianry school I attended. I would have loved to have the option of attending from my home.

I believe it may open up our profession to many more people who otherwise may not get involved. It may be our answer for the shortage of Opticians we seem to be experiencing!

~Cindy

[Jackie L]

I believe the J. Sargent Reynolds Community College in Richmond, Virginia has an ongoing Distance Learning program. Randy Smith is the program director and works with our own Optiboarder Eddege.

http://jsr.cc.va.us/

[Homer]

Laurie, when is your class as Expo? I want to be there.

Hope we can all meet at EXPO.

you betcha!

[JRS]

Homer, I believe her message said VE-East next year (March?). I too was hoping it was going to be this September in LV.

However, I hope we are still planning to meet @ VE-West this year! You just let me know the when and the where - I'll get there.

[kjw1231]

Steve,

We met at vision Expo a few years ago to discuss this very topic. I created it, put it up, it failed. We even had streaming media from taped lectures and live lectures. Some issues:

1. Most did not want to pay fees ($25.00-$75.00)
2. Unwillingness of manufacturers to participate
3. Lack of Internet connectivity

That's my 2 cents worth...

[Steve Machol]

Kevin,

Distance Education has really come into it's own over the last couple of years through highly respected and accredited institutions. I'm not taliing about one course or a few courses, but entire degree programs people are earning online and in combination with other techniques (portofolio assessment, CLEP and DANTES tests, etc.)

I think the opportunity to earn a two-year Associates Degree in Opticinary is an idea who's time has come. I do believe there's a market for this service, providing the price is right and the actual educational experience is credible enough to gain the respect of employers. After all, an MBA from Havard Business School would be almost meaningless if employers placed no value on it.

[David Wilson]

Steve,
We (Open Training and Education Network-Distance Education in Sydney Australia) have had a distance education program for some years now. OTEN-DE is a government run technical college with over 40000 distance students in various courses. We revise our optical dispensing course every three years. Currently we have over 500 students across Australia and New Zealand. While students work at their own pace, we have a recommended schedule which takes them two and a half years. They also attend four one-week practical blocks and have to have concurrent work experience. We like to think that it works extremely well. My friends in the Association of British Dispensing Opticians (ABDO) also have an excellent distance course which is offered out of London.
I haven't seen the NFOS program, but I'm aware that Ed De Gennaro has been involved in its production. I am sure that it would be first class.
Regards
David Wilson

[Alan W]

There is always a curve of relevence to application which I believe will enter the picture in the future. The opportunities DE presents in terms of the future for opticianry are incredible, and also need to be developed around both present AND future needs.

We have been tossing around multiple certification as a need for the enhancement of opticianry in the marketplace. I chatted briefly with Laurie about this. It is taking far too long for people to get to ABO level, which I believe is the acceptable minimum academic level for an optician. I see an Asscoiate Degree and then separate certification as a Cosmetic Optician, Manufacturing Optician,and Clinical Optician as needed advancements, with an Associate degree bringing opticianry up to the level of what nursing was over 15 years ago. And, I say that because Clinical opticians should have been the ones refracting in a doctors office. Clinical Opticians should have been doing corneal mapping etc. where -barely -out- of- high school people are doing it right now certified through medical and optometric programs. That really bugs me!

Distance learning, with relevent and application specific courses, could facilitate the acquisition of the certificates of specialization enormously and could make a high impact initiative happen really, really, darned fast!

If I could call the shots (dreamer that I am) I would say we need to get everything in place in less than two years. It can be done. If we pull together and get it funded. And, therein is a function that everyone in education needs a heck of a support system for/of/etc., Opticianry needs and will have a completely different face in the future. I would love to be part of the curriculum development of training for the future that could make that happen. I see some great thinking, here. If I may suggest it, coordination and development of curricula that will facilitate change rapidly and with no sacrifice in quality of education (In fact with the mandate of superior education), is the future of opticianry.

[Laurie]

The very fact that we agree that opticians should be formally educated is a milestone. Just one year ago we were debating whether opticians should go to college at all!

(and THANK YOU, JRS!) That was the nicest comment I've received for some time!)


One interesting thing we are finding here in Tampa...it is not just the geographic issue (only 25 or so accredited programs in the US), but convenience of time is a big factor as well. Some of our distance ed students actually live near by!! They simply cannot commit to a Mon - Thurs 8:00 - 2:00 schedule to be a campus based student. The time factor is just as big as the geographic one.

And, as mentioned earlier, the seminar will be at Expo East in NYC in March 2002. I'll be teaching classes all day Friday at Expo West, but different topics.

I would like to meet up with everyone at Expo West. I am pretty booked Thurs and Friday, but am open on Saturday.

Is anyone available Saturday??

Laurie

[Homer]

A Saturday meeting will work for me. Early to mid morning?

[kjw1231]

Steve,

I have an AAS in Ophthalmic Dispensing. What did it get me? 15 years in and then, out of the business. The relevance of the degree places no interest to the employer. If you went to a chain or private OD and said, "I have a degree now, pay me 50K+", you would be shunned. I know people that represented the chains that have lobbied congress (at the Federal and State levels) to eliminate licences in all states. If they succeed, the degree is nice, but is worthless. In New York (once the hardest state to get licensed), they dropped it for the ABO. I never had the ABO certification, so I took the exam years later. Without studying (actually drinking the night before), I received a 96. Right after they changed the law, I saw salaries drop through the floor. Hence, new career search and my BS and MBA. In fact, the push is on at the chains to hire former GM's at other retail stores. I know of a former manager at the Gap that now oversees the Opticians and staff that makes 9.00/hour. Just a trend that will continue, as salaries continue to spiral downward.

Not to belabor the point, but I had spoken to the dean at my old school about enhancing the AAS degree to a BS. My idea was to incorporate the JCHAPO program along with some nursing courses, so that you would become irreplaceable. In my mind if you came out with the ability address the medical and technical sides, then you are ready for a career that is medically based, and career oriented. You then would be an asset to any MD office, clinic or surgery center. Oh by the way, refraction would also be taught. The old professor did not agree, this was 5 years ago. Since that time, I have seen the opticianry program close at another college in the state. The students transfered here some years back. The result has been a decline in the overall program, where now a handful of students graduate. If you put courses on-line I feel that you jeopardize the industry. You might as well get Sally Struthers to offer the program along with teh GED by mail.

Steve, I guess in a nutshell, I just do not see the point. Unless a uniformed national licensing occurs, any degrees, trainig or accredidation is great for the ego, but it will not pay the bills. But then again, this is my opinion.

[Steve Machol]

Kevin,

It sounds like you're saying theres no point to Opticianry eductation at all. If so, then I'll just have to respectfully disagree. If not, then I guess I missed your point.

Granted, an AS degree in Opticianry will not immediately tranlate to a $50k/year job, but it does confer some debgree of expertise - similar to Associate degrees in other specialties.

I'd be interested in hearing from others who have gone through a 2 year Opticianry program to learn if they also feel their education has been a waste.

Anyone want to share their thoughts?

[stephanie]

Ok some more of my thoughts...here's the thing... some people who do NOT belong in this industry I know for a fact are somehow managing to pass the ABO and are out there serving the public without any regard to the fact that they are waiting on human beings. I know this I have worked with them. Is there absolutely NO WAY to weed these bad seeds out? I find it rather appauling to think these careless (in more ways than one) are eventually going to be licensed opticians. That is one of the reasons I feel that perhaps if we were to do away with the apprentice program (some were in formal education btw) and make it mandatory to either go to school or do DE and somehow monitor peoples customer service skills or something. Any thoughts here???? I am seriously concerned for the welfare of some of these patients. YES I was on the apprentice program BUT I truly do care about the profession and consider my patients to be top priority and do everything in my power to make sure they get the best care. Some do not feel this way could care less...what if anything can we do?
Steph

[Laurie]

Hi, Back Again,

To Homer: Sat (late morning??) Keeping in mind the Marchon party is Friday night. : )

Kevin: I agree that National Licensing would be great. I am also aware that state to state, legislatively, each state still calls their own shots. About 6-8 years ago, the OAA resolved to make sure that future opticians would have an AS degree. The slogan was, "Educate, then Legislate". It is another way to go after the same goal.

As far as quality, don't worry about Sally Struthers. As David mentioned, Eddie De Gennaro is heavily involved in the creation of our program (NFOS), and quality is of high importance to us. I used to be an optical princess and managed Lugene Opticians in Boston where we dispensed eyewear up to $11,000.00 per pair. Quality is something I obsess over. We have worked on this non stop for just about 2 years now (development only!) We are careful not to just throw something up fast, but to really think of how our existing curricula (which works well) can be transformed into materials for distance learning.

I don't want to sound like it is perfect. I still believe that real time, human to human learning is best, but when someone cannot make it to school, it is a wonderful option. (again, WITH hands on training in the field).

so, that is my dollar and fifty cents worth. (inflation, you know)

Laurie : )

[marblez]

I believe the time has come for distance learning in our profession. In the state of Flordia there are two schools, one in Tampa and the other in Miami. Where do those who live in North Florida go? I looked into an A.S. degree last year and neither schools were willing to even try. I hope that something can be developed. I believe education is the key and a degree is the best way for us to continue being lic, but every one has to be able to get one. We can not just leave our homes and jobs and move south to get a degree in Florida. Soooooo please develop the best program ever so all who want to have a degree can get one.



Christina

[Alan W]

Not to belabor the point, but I had spoken to the dean at my old school about enhancing the AAS degree to a BS. My idea was to incorporate the JCHAPO program along with some nursing courses, so that you would become irreplaceable. In my mind if you came out with the ability address the medical and technical sides, then you are ready for a career that is medically based, and career oriented. You then would be an asset to any MD office, clinic or surgery center. Oh by the way, refraction would also be taught. The old professor did not agree, this was 5 years ago

You're absolutely right. By comparison . . . why should anyone pay an optician that doesn't have the skills of the other sponsored specialties. That's why I'm trying to promote specialty certification as clinical opticians.

And, thats why I'm trying to promote specialty certification as cosmetic opticians who can, should, and would receive training in esthetics. These people who exist out there, know how to make eyewear a desired fashion product. They know fashion merchandising and visual merchandising, cosmetics, fashion, hair, wardrobe. They have already used and know how to use computer imaging as a sales tool not an electronic mirror. There is so much they know, we will never understand it. And, they make the kind of money that most opticians would die for.

The same for manufacturing opticins . . . they used to call them craftsmen . . craftspeople. People with lens manufacturing training, equipment training, so on and so forth.

As for the management aspect. . . find me an optician who has been offered training in true management technology and I'll do back flips. That's wht Lenscrafters recreuted them from outside. Bad news for all of us . . . now the scumbags of management are in charge from big chains. And, believe me, their job is to get the most productive people at the lowest possible price.
Did we sell the farm. Yep. And, simply can't stop doing it. We seem to have a noble cause in a most un-noble marketplace.

With respect to distance learning. . . I dissagree completely with you. But, Kevin, like me . . . we were ahead of out time. Sorry folks . . . facts are facts. Frustration has definitely taken its toll. I tried to start that in 1984 with a degree bearing program with the Southern California Consortium of Community Colleges. I was National Training Center Coordinator and management program designer with Lenscafters in those days. Could have gone national. They had a different agenda and it died. But, the business programs were already in place. Even today, there isn't one certifcate course in management principles offered to opticians that comes close to what is offered in other industries, if at all. They thrive on it. We as a professional community wonder whether it should even exist. I definitely favor CBL. But, there better be someone out their watching them screw in the screws, so on and so forth. I honestly believe Laurie has a good handle on it. But, here again, I revert back to my first passion . . . the public doesn't even know who the heck we are. Half of them think we deliver babies. And, that's gotta change right now. Not next year sometime. Right now. Forgive me and my big mouth, please.

[Cindy Hamlin]

Originally posted by kjw1231
I know of a former manager at the Gap that now oversees the Opticians and staff that makes 9.00/hour.


Kevin,
I came into the optical business from the retail side. I had no experience and no inclination toward the optical profession. I hated the place I was working and saw the "help wanted" sign when I was getting my glasses adjusted and thought "why not!"

Just because a person has no optical experience does not mean they cannot manage an optical business as long as they hire skilled optical personnel and have a willingness to learn the optical business. I learned as I went and, upon moving to a licensed state, went to school to get my optician's license.

Do you think that people should go to school and then and only then work in optical?

~Cindy

[kjw1231]

I came into the optical business from the retail side. I had no experience and no inclination toward the optical profession.
~Cindy

Cindy,

I do not think that everyone should go to school or get degreed to work in vision care. My point is that nowadays, formal education is percieved not to be needed in the optical/retail arena. With the push from the biggest optical chains, glasses are thought of more as an accessory, not medical device. The field itself has transformed from a medical one into a retail one, and it will not go back. With the advances in technology it has made it possible to fabricate, sell and give great service with little or no experience. There was a time when it meant something to be an optician, nowadays the public sees opticians as just another retail sales person. The consumer looks for the best price, best service, NOT the degree hanging on the wall.

It is sad but ALL Optician organizations did not "go to bat" for the Optician's in years past, and now there is a backlash. They have become corrupt and have given into outside pressures, which has resulted in fragmentation, distrust, and and over all feeling of despair. Because they missed the boat to get national licensing, salaries and careers have gone south. they are trying to re-group as members have cancelled their dues and are trying to stay alive.

I have dealt with optical companies of all sizes from the indepedent to the largest chain, they all have one goal...MAKE MONEY. I have seen private OD's let Optician's go after many years of service, because their salary was too high (35K). I have seen chains remove experienced managers out in favor of someone with a strong retail sale background. Again, not everyone will say it out loud, but it is a retail industry and that is the way it is.

[kjw1231]

With respect to distance learning. . . I dissagree completely with you.
~Alan

Alan,

I don't think that we completely disagree. I agree with more business education for the vision care industry.

I do differ with on-line education to get optically certified/licensed. I know that it will not work. I worked with an Opticianry school to get courses on-line, they charged $225.00 ($75.00 per credit hour) per course, plus fees. All said and done it would run over $4,000 to complete the course, there were no takers. The course closed down last year. I say let the ABO continue to train the way they have been.

Where the next focus shoud be is in business strategies. I attended an optician Dgreed program; great technical information, but how to run a business and stay ahead of the competition was not covered. Either degreed or otherwise, the name of the game is learning the best ways to capitialize in a marketplace, not how much panascopic tilt is recommended.

Ophthalmologists get trained in business practices. Obviously they have a lot more to lose and are the medical professional. even they see the value of handling the practice as a business not a professional organization. I have a friend that is in his last year of residency and he spent the last two years reviewing: accounting principles, effective management, how to open a dispensary, and other related topics. If the so- called "top of the food chain" gets this kind of training, why not opticians?

Comments?

[Alan W]

1, Everybody wants to get into the on-line education game.
2, Everybody who knows optical subjects thinks its a piece of cake to do DE. You proved that to be quite the case.
3, The government, through 3 separate agencies, has a ton of money for DE development and a ton of money to finance taking the courses. Somebody didn't do his homework.
4, You don't convert text books to DE formats etc. It takes a lot of work to do it right. Too many losers in that game and the student is the biggest. When you say it doesn't work, you are making opticianry the exception. There are literaly hundreds of DE/on-line courses leading to technical degrees in and out of opticianry, in and out of health care. 1 mile from me is a little place NASA. They have an incredibly well run talented group who writes programs for the development of a miriad of applications. The medical knowledge astronauts have when they launch is staggering. I socialize with a couple of them and I've seen the DE material they have to learn. Opticianry is nothing compared to some of the work these people are doing. The premier development company in the USA is Allen Interactions under Dr, Richard Allen, in Minneapolis. Dr. Allen wrote Macromedia Authorware and a couple other well known programs that have become the standard in website and authoring development. They have already finished a fabulous program and are doing more for opticianry. Unfortuately they are being paid by a chain and I doubt they will share it in the near future. ProSavvy is their developmental system that makes things happen real fast and real well. I have no doubt the school you refer to is top notch, but the success of DE depends on a lot of factors. I'll betya my bottom bucks, if they took another look at it and maybe even changed programming people and tools, they'd do nicely. What concerns me and nothing can be done to stop it, is the tremendous amout of redundancy and programs leading to blind alleys in the employment landscape. We have to be very careful with this . . . it could easily become the antibiotic that has lost its effectiveness from misuse.

I agree, we cannot and should not replace classroom and "grand rounds training." Mentoring must never die. But, when written by people who understand adult learning behavior, the concepts of stimulus -response-feedback, and a strong adherence to EITHER flow chart or event based programing without getting too glitsy, everyone can be prepared for internship and get through it much more effectively.

We need a whole new line function analysis. I believe our last one was 30 years ago. And, we need to develop programs to address that new analysis, and not the present profile of opticianry. When I had to take the ABO in 1968, we had to derive formulas, use slide rules, use our heads. Not so today. And, I believe if we are stuck with transferees from the Garden Center now in the optical, they better go through the ringer just like I did, which is not happening with current ABO. That's not an exam. It's a quiz! It has counterevolved. . .what took an hour to learn way back when, now takes 10 minutes. So, we better come up with a profession that's got some meat to it. It embarrasses me no end to have an ABO person on my staff who doesn't understand whats going on when a prescription is transposed. I made the stupid mistake of asking what the sin2 of 90 degrees was in relationship to transposition, and got the answer "I left that chart at home". So, I tell them its "1" and they are then completely brainparalyzed. The porch light is on and nobody is home. Should I congratulate the ABO? No, I don't think so, Tim! or Kevin! But, I will after the next line function analysis.

I am for consumer empowerment. That's what I personally believe IOC will be there to stimulate. That will make the work of OAA far more effective. The consumer someday will overpower the lobbyist and will eventually assert who's boss! But, I also believe in optician empowerment. We must make greater demands in preparation for the next generation. . . right now.

Kev . . . why do you do this to me? Why do you drive me into these discussions. I thought you were my friend!

[Roy R. Ferguson]

As many of you know, I've developed a program that uses Charter Oak State College as a means for experienced opticians to obtain fully accredited Associate in Science or Bachelor of Science degrees. Since the ABO/NCLE examinations have been evaluated for 20 semester hours of the 60 required for the Associate of Science degree, Charter Oak offers an outstanding educational opportunity to working professionals. By the way, Charter Oak will transfer college credit from all acredited institutions, regardless of age; even those for the 60's and 70's.

It's inportant to stress that these degrees are for experienced opticians. The courses I have written assume attendees have at least three years experience, ABO/NCLE certification and/or state license. The classes consist of a pre-class assignment, midterm exam, two days of class work and a final examination. When designing the classes, I had in mind trying to blend them into optical meetings so participants could obtain both CE and three semester hours of college credit in a couple of days. Again, these classes are for experienced opticians. Entry-level personnel should attend one of the two-year programs or enroll in one of the distance learning courses to obtain basic education relating to the ophthalmic field.

To speed everyone along I've also developed 13 (39 semester hours) DANTES review courses covering topics such as Art of the Western World and Environment and Humanity. These courses allow the student to study at their own pace and take the exams at their local participating college. All these tests are accepted by Charter Oak and help fulfill the General Studies requirements.

Why aren't opticians beating down the door at Charter Oak? I truthfully don't know. The degrees are fully accredited and completion requirements are very straightforward. The cost is low (approximately $1,000 for the BS) and you're not required to travel to Connecticut. I wish I had known about the Charter Oak degree when I completed my Bachelor's.

Roy R. Ferguson, Ph.D.

[Jo]

Originally posted by Roy R. Ferguson
By the way, Charter Oak will transfer college credit from all acredited institutions, regardless of age; even those for the 60's and 70's.Does that mean that credits from Sacred Heart U. back in the Late 80's and early 90's are transferable?

Here are some links for anyone interested:
Charter Oak State College, Distance Learning (http://www.cosc.edu/)
NFOS, US & Canada (http://www.nfos.org/home.html)
Middlesex Community College, CT - Opthalmic Design & Dispensing (http://www.mxctc.commnet.edu/progs/mxcd_science2.htm)

[Steve Machol]

Originally posted by Roy R. Ferguson
As many of you know, I've developed a program that uses Charter Oak State College as a means for experienced opticians to obtain fully accredited Associate in Science or Bachelor of Science degrees.

Actually I didn't know that! When I was investigating ways to earn an IS degree, Charter Oak was consistently cited as one of the premier and most respected distance learning programs.

This sounds like an opportunity that every Optician should investigate. Good luck with the program!

[Roy R. Ferguson]

Yes Jo, the hours from the 80's and 90's do transfer. That's the beauty of the Charter Oak degree. It's possible to assemble credits from multiple sources and end up with a fully accredited degree. I'm happy to help any interested individuals learn how the Charter Oak program works.

Steve, Charter Oak is one of the best-kept secrets in the United States. It's a state-supported college that is respected in educational circles. The major problem I've encountered when discussing it is that people have difficulty believing that anything this good could be legitimate.

Many opticians have college hours laying around with no idea how to turn them into a degree. Charter Oak is the best way I've found, especially with the 20 semester hours granted for the ABO/NCLE.

[Jeff Trail]

Kevin & Alan,

You two are quick to see the negative BUT do you know the classes that are being offered through Tampa? I take those classes! I think it is great and EVERYONE of the opticians should be cross trained. I kind of have an advantage since I owned two retail stores as well as a wholesale lab, but I have gained a few things along the way in the classes being offered, anatomy&physiology being my biggest learning curve..and is it working? YES..how do I know? Some of my accounts have people in the courses and I have worked with them in the lab classes and have seen a very marked difference in the way they sell as well as dispense. I sure have an easier time trying to relate optical theory as well when problems arise.
I, for one, think it should be mandatory for EVERY optician to have lab as well as dispensing experience and UNDERSTAND the theoretical as well as physical side of optics... the optician should be a step above the retail person.. anyone can sell a SV .50 sphere or fit a FT.. but I have seen some questions posted here over the years by "opticians" that made me wonder how they got their lic. to begin with...
If you want to split it up, that's fine with me but someone should be in an optical that at least understands the reasons "why & and what" it means when they are recommending a lens to someone that does NOT fit in the cookie cutter dispensing of .50 spheres...
I, personally have worked with over 20 opticians who were sitting for the state board here in FL. over the last four or five years and what do they ALL want to do? Remember the formula's to get by, but do they KNOW what those formula's mean..nope, do they want to know? nope, the majority did not want me to explain it..and a lot of those opticians are still accounts of mine and they still do not understand slabs (why and how) and do not understand Fresnel's equation (really nice to know to sell those AR coats), or Prentice rule, or explain "how" a polarized lens works, what an optical cross is and be able to work out the powers, vertex compensation,snells law, figure radius or any of the other number of formula's I have TRIED to teach them..the usual answer is "why?..that's why we have you as our lab":cool:
Alan, you and I are old veterans;) of this board and I think I do have a fairly wide grasp of optic's, both on the physical and theoretical side, but as a "student" of the web branch of Hillsborough C.C. (hi Laurie) I think it is a good worthwhile program... and if it was NOT for this program, in this state I would NOT even be able to get my FL. State ABO lic. without a lot of working under someone or going daytime schooling..and Laurie will attest to my time schedule, I am way to busy for that....
If you want "optician" to be a sales tech, then I would agree that any of this would be a waste of time, BUT if you think that an optician should get higher wages..then with higher wages come a wider scope of responsibilities and educational level...
I for one can speak about Laurie and Bill Underwoods hard work at H.C.C. and can say they have a very good program, a lot of it has been easy for me with my experience, but for the ones around me that are taking the same courses and working in OD's offices that are accounts of my wholesale lab I can see GREAT improvement, that to me is proof enough ;)
Now the bottom line, has it been beneficial and worthwhile to the OD's they worked for as well by learning a lot of the theoretical as well...YES.. and how do I know that? I am their lab and have seen the average cost of sales per pair increase more and more.. makes it a lot easier to sell those premium brand of PAL's when you can actually explain the differences, and upgrade to polarized over a "tinted" lens..or sell that AR coating by explain through Fresnel equation how the material effects the way the light is transmitted and on and on... The way I see it is don't knock it if you havn't gotten the whole picture...
I for one think the program has been worth it, maybe to me it has been fairly easy, but to others I have seen the "light bulbs" pop on when they have seen that "oh this is happening here when we give them this and it's doing this" :) I kinda like that...

I say that you guys should be trying to help not keep talking about how it's not working..... You want that $50 large Kevin? Then get out their and fight to get simple refracting laws passed and widen the scope of those people with A.S. degree's in opticenry .. I do fairly well as an owner of a lab, and I know a lot of opticians that are private owners that make that $50... Got to work for it if ya want it... You want the Lic. to mean nothing to the OD's then sit back..you want it to increase pay then get out there and fight.. here in FL. we have VERY strict rules about what can be done by an optician and by the retailer and it does mean that the opticians pay scale is higher!! Just my .02 worth

Jeff "boy are my fingers tired" Trail

[Alan W]

Jeff . . . Uh,Uhhhh!
Please reread my posts. I am very much pro DE and CBL. I have done some authoring myself. I am very much PRO national licensing. In fact, I am trying to promote multiple/advanced certification for Clinical Optician, Cosmetic Optician, and Manufacturing Optician. I am NOT against ABO Certification. I AM in favor of new line function analysis to bring ABO up to date. I DO believe that advanced certification will be possible when the training function is prepared for rapid delivery to large numbers, so that no one is excluded. I DO believe that national licensure will happen, but after advanced certification. I DO believe that opticians have been exploited and by their own choice have been underutilized because thay have not insisted on advancement as COT or other advanced certifications have.

There are people out there called opticians with certain acquired skills that have had incredible impact on their own or employers business or practice. Some of these people run big time circles around the rest of us. They should be recognized for the effort they have put in for acquiring those skills. I know many of them and they make substantially more money than so many of us. I hope you are in favor of that recognition. You yourself probably have acquired many of the additional skills that could earn you certifcation as a Manufacturing Optician, should that specialty certification happen.

Finally, No one has more respect for the work of these training professionals I have met here on the Board, Roy Ferguson, Laurie Pierce, and others. So, lets not confuse my statements. What I said, I would say to these folks as I would say it to myself as a professional trainer . . . Not to be construed as critical or negative, but in the words and spirit of the Japanese school Kaizen, which translates into "Continual Improvment", I have pledged my support to these professionals.

If I came across negative . . . my sincerest apologies.

[JRS]

Say Alan, have you ever seen Kaizen applied? I went into a lab once that had been "Kaizen'd" - wasn't impressive.

[Alan W]

I can imagine.
The people at Kaizen Institute have the right idea, but are taking TQM, as relates to optical, the wrong way. I met with them in Austin and offered to help. The response was "bring us clients and we'll talk." So, that ended that.
But, I have a world of respect for the system as it applies to the training environment. They, and Deming, so on and so forth, have done wonderful things around the world.
I suspect that the chemistry of optical and TQM have a problem to begin with. I took Benson to the door step of The Malcom Baldridge Award for service excellence, but it was an incredibly painful experience. TQM had minimal results on the lab floor, even under Mark Pratts direction. Then along came Pembridge Holdings. BAM!

[Jeff Trail]

Alan,

Glad to see that we are on the same "page", maybe we differ slightly on those "types" of opticians though, I for one would rather see it split in just two lines..a "optician" and a "refracting optician" (with the proper education level)
My case is kind of weird, I have owned two retail stores as well as a wholesale lab, but in FL. you have two ways of getting your state lic. that is needed (sponsorship or school) I could have had my opticians sign off on my sheet and turn it into the state, but I always thought that was do a disservice to the opticians that worked for me to get them to do that, mainly because of having all three locations I was never in one place for very long :-), and how could you, on one hand, ask an employee to do something that is technically illegal and expect them to be an honest employee? I guess I'm one of those weird people who actually has ethics :-) ...now could I pass the test? yep, took them all but in this state you have to play "politics" to get the state lic...I even got to take a version of the ABOM and passed that, but technically since I was never sponsored none of it was valid in the eyes of the state board. That is the reason I have to go through H.C.C and the web to get my lic. (state boards)
Now can I pass it, I think so, do a lot of the people I do work with and for pass it? probably not, and more than a few just remembered enough to pass it and do not really understand "what" they are learning.. I think they should move it all up a step and pass laws like we have here in FL., if it's retail and you do NOT have an optician on the floor than you can not even make a frame adjustment.. if you do and get caught then you are going to pay a hefty fine. We even had one guy that was tossed in JAIL for dispensing without the FL. lic. !! (30 days in the can) he is, well was, about 20 miles from my lab...
I think what they ought to do is get the OD's (national) and the opticians.. and move them all into another stage of the game...with the proper educational background being required...even though, technically, I am unlic. can I refract? yep..shoot I own two lanes and have a trial frame set at the lab and do a lot of low vision and visual problem work for MD's that are accounts.. one of the reasons I wanted to "boost" my anatomy and pathology through the school...
I would think if you want to cut it into groups you could have a dispensing optician, refractionist (simple refraction no pathology). Than increase the OD's scope of responsibilities, more along the lines of an O.D.P.A.,..you get those guys on your team then you are going somewhere, they are getting it from both ends now adays.(OD's) Between third party **** and HMO's and now the trend of MD's getting into the dispensing as well the market is shrinking for them (money wise)
One thing we both seem to agree on is that a national standard is needed..of course chains are going to fight tooth and nail to not have that. I have taken the ABO and found that to be a very "simple" test.. we need to have a more advanced testing and than we can weed out the ones that want the "lic." and then do cookie cutter optics,that is more of just a tech not an optician. The ABOM I took was more math intensive and had a lot of theoretical stuff that should in my opinion been on the ABO..I have tons of books at home and here at the lab and programs out the ying yang, and know formula after formula..do I use them all the time, nope.. I have used them all one time or another over the years..hmm ..probably, I do a lot of "optics" that fall outside of our usual scope for companies like Radon, AT&T and even helped out on a few things at NASA.. but still a lot of those formula's I do use at times in the visual optics end of our field..
I hope that we can at least get all 50 states just to have a basic Lic. , shoot thier are still some states that do not require anything at all :-) Than we can expand from there (hopefully)

Jeff "fighting back every chance I get" Trail

[Alan W]

What really bugs me is that with it all, recognition isn't on the horizon.
I still hold firm on three certifiations, You have the essence of two of them. If an optician can perform the duties of a OT, NCLE certified tech, and all the things that happen in a doctors office including refracting, that person is very strong in a clinical environment.
But, all across the country there are pockets. I know them well because my job put me in seven major markets. Those pockets of opticians, and believe it or not, some OD's work in an environment that's completely non-clinical. They are up to their ears in makeup and fashion and high end and very very high fashion eyewear. Please don't try to convince me they are the same. I had a young man working for me when I owned The Wizard of Eyes and this "kid" was incredible. He had 160 hours of cosmetology and 60 hours, an Associates Degree in Fashio merchandising. He made my store look like and perform like a Beverly Hills Designer boutique and we attracted that clientelle. They know what make up is all about, because they talk about it in the sale. They know what fashion is all about because they usually came from that environment, and talk the talk of fashion during the whole session. They sell higher priced eyewear to higher end customers whos life is vanity driven, whose careers are centered around "la lunette soire" eyewear of the party (or something like that). These people have no interest in corneal topography, nor do clinical people have much interest in matching eyeshadow and blush to frame and lens tints while wearing a certain outfit. Those people are 100% died in the wool cosmetic and fashion animals. Bless both their hearts and brains. Each should be recognized for specialty. Each IS a specialist. Need I say more about people who run labs, master technicians, so on and so forth. Think about Jeff Trail for a moment. Should Jeff be certified as a manufacturing optician with all that background? Should Jeff be a Certified Clinical Optician? You betcha. If you combine an ABO certification generalist with one certification in a specialty, you have a highly desireable individual who should automtically be licensed. Then in five years, that same person should have a degree to be licensed. I'll bet 80% of the opticians out there are undertrained and don't deserve a license. We should NOT license people just becaause they are born. But, someone who has passed the horrors of the certification process deserves at least specialty certification and then maybe a license, and AFTER THAT . . . tickets to EPCOT! Yes, Yes, Yes!

[Cindy Hamlin]

July 24th, a district manager and I met with the Opticianry department at J. Sargeant Reynolds (Richmond, VA) to learn more about their opticianry program as well as their distance learning opportunities. I was very impressed by the accomodations they make for their distance students to have the technical hands-on knowledge they lack right in their own neighborhood.

I applaud Randy Smith and Ed DeGennaro on the fine program they conduct at J. Sarge.

Here's the link for those interested:
http://www.jsr.cc.va.us/itde/cde/default.htm

~Cindy