In-house lab (Optician vs. OD/MD)

[ASenior]

What do you think??

Optician owner's vs. Dr. owner's who have an in-house finishing lab or beyond.

I would venture to say that given the % of Optician Owner's out in the USA that have an in-house lab far out weigh the % of OD/MD owner's that edge (or beyond edging).

-Why is the Optician so inclined to have a lab?

-And if I'm correct, why are a large number of Doctors reluctant to start an in-house lab?

-How many Optician owners do you know that DONT at least edge?

As an Optician for 13yrs. I couldn't even begin to think of not at least edging. Can you help me to understand OR correct my thoughts on this.

[jbthebus36]

I would say that an optician/owner is so inclined as to be able to offer quicker service as a way to compete and get those rx's in the door. And you're right I don't know of any that doesn't at least edge. I think the Dr's except some of the larger practices just do not want to deal with the cost of equipment and hiring someone to run the lab, why not just send it out and have someone else do it?

[gemstone]

Opticians don't have to spend time examamining eyes. No the same as doctors anyway. To tell you the truth there arn't very many independent opticians around here anymore. That'd be a good question as well. How What is the precentage of independant opticians?

[ASenior]

But if the optician isn't willing to forward the work on to a lab and can get the work done with out taking on additional staff to operate the equipment and see the benifits of edging, you would think the Dr's office would follow the lead.

[ASenior]

To tell you the truth there arn't very many independent opticians around here anymore. That'd be a good question as well. How What is the precentage of independant opticians?

That is a great question. I bet Jobson could answer that?

[DragonLensmanWV]

I got my start (35 years ago this Aug 14) in the optical business when my best friend's dad (An OD) decided he wanted to open an edging lab. I needed a job, I got a career.
Worked there four years until the son got killed in a plane crash. It was hard on all of us, so I moved on to Monfried Optical. No edging there, left after a couple of years to work for an independent optician with a lab in place already. Owner sold the business, new owner wouldn't live up to his promises, and after another year, I left to work for my current employer, another OD. I've been here now for 28 years.
So - I've worked for two ODs with labs (though technically we're a different corporation and thus independent), one independent with a lab and one national chain with no lab.

[cocoisland58]

But if the optician isn't willing to forward the work on to a lab and can get the work done with out taking on additional staff to operate the equipment and see the benifits of edging, you would think the Dr's office would follow the lead.


Because the Dr. never learned how to do lab work and doesn't want to hire someone who does.

[CME4SPECS]

Because the Dr. never learned how to do lab work and doesn't want to hire someone who does.

THAT PRETTY MUCH SUMS IT UP!

[ASenior]

Because the Dr. never learned how to do lab work and doesn't want to hire someone who does.

Kinda to my point... if they have an optician to dispense, then they have someone to run the edger. Understanding of lensometery really is all that is needed these days. I could cut 5-7 jobs perday by myself just in-between Doc's patients and still keep up with sales, dispenses, adjustments, putting frames back on the boards, answering the phones, scheduling so-forth and so-on.

In respect to staff members out there, I am holding back what I think the meat of the matter really is.

Any Dr's out there who want to chime in?

[KStraker]

I guess we are in the minority then. We are a private OD practice and a private surfacing/finishing lab. The doctor owns both. We have the only surfacing lab on our county.

[orangezero]

I'll chime in. Various reasons I'm sure. Its been my impression that the vast majority of ODs don't have an edger or surfacing equipment because they get in a "rut." VSP (usually) requires an outside lab, so if an OD is VSP heavy the benefits become less. I think the thought is they can make more money seeing extra patients and not have the extra hassle, space, employee training, potential inventory and other things required of even a partial lab.

I also think a lot of ODs are less concerned with lowest prices, they just want it done correctly.

I've even talked with some opticians locally that only have an edger, and still, they only do certain jobs. They don't want to be the ones who have to eat an expensive progressive with AR, when there is the possibility of a mess-up.

I think cost is a big prohibitive factor in a lot of cases. The perceived cost, perhaps, and not the actual cost.

When starting a new practice, edging is one extra burden that doesn't have to be done right away, at least thats the thought. I'm sure a lot never get around to adding it in because they get comfortable.

Having said that, I know several ODs in my town and elsewhere with edgers and a small inventory of lenses, or who overnight lenses in. They generally regret not getting one sooner, and I've yet to meet an OD who thought it was a mistake to start an edging lab.

[orangezero]

Also, we need to keep in mind ODs are just like everyone else, they all have things they like and things they dislike. The ones who don't want to deal with many different issues involved with running a practice are usually the ones who are going to be employed, work in big group practices, work for ophthalmologists, or take out a lease in a walmart, pearle, sears, or the indepent optical. They gravitate there because they don't want the perceive "hassle" of dealing with employees, labs, management, etc and would rather just be paid to see patients and go home at night. No value judgment by me (at least not now), but its safe to say a lot on this board only ever interact with those types of ODs.

Dealing with optometrists (as a group) is kind of like herding cats. Lots of variety in both professional settings and mindset.

[Johns]

Opticians don't have to spend time examamining eyes. No the same as doctors anyway. To tell you the truth there arn't very many independent opticians around here anymore. That'd be a good question as well. How What is the precentage of independant opticians?


Also, because opticians don't have the revenue stream of the exams, they have to try to make more profit by lowering the overhead. A lab is an easy way to accomplish this, although many ODs and opticians would disagree.

[jbthebus36]

All you have to do is compare the price of a pair of semi-finished blanks to what you pay to have an outside lab to do the job. Opticians don't have the extra revenue of exams, gotta make the money somehow.

[ASenior]

I know most if not all wholesale labs would disagree. But I see it be a benifit and not just monetarily.

More profit = higher prices or lower costs.

I think many staff memebers get in the way of OD's starting a lab. "I'm to busy" "I have enough work already" "I don't want the headache" ... I mean they will say that as they sit behind the front desk reading 20/20.

[snowmonster]

I'll chime in - I'm an OD who's had edging for 1.5 years now and we added surfacing (all materials except glass) about 7 months ago.

We did all of this to achieve lower cost of goods and to improve the speed at which we can get jobs done. People are impressed when our office turns around a job in 30-60 minutes, although we don't advertise this. So it's also a good marketing tool. We also do work for three other offices in our general area right now, and we're looking to grow that side of our business as much as we can starting in the next 2-3 months.

Why would you want to put surfacing or finishing in your office? Why not? If I can reduce our cost of goods by a factor of 10, I can easily afford to hire a lab guy/gal and buy equipment to get this stuff done. Almost all of our jobs are out within 2 days max (depending on when the order comes in).

Why don't more OD's do it? A lot of OD's just tune out when they hear the word "optics" because it's either boring or it makes them remember some traumatic portion of Optometry School. It takes a mild interest in optics to want to get an edger, but people with a larger interest in money and bottom line will put the labs in. Some OD's just don't want the challenge (headache, on some days). They just want to get in/out every day and not worry about change.

The VSP thing is an issue, but we can still do emergency pairs and Exam Plus pairs and second pairs in office. You just need to determine what percentage of your office is VSP to see if it's worthwhile.

Personally, I really enjoy hands-on stuff like lab work, so you'll catch me getting in the way of our lab guy quite often. He loves it. ;)

-Steve

[Johns]

Steve,

You were the first person I thought of when I saw this thread.
:cheers:

[Da Hammer]

As an OD I really can't see how people don't have at least a finishing lab. That goes for OD, OMD, or optician. The savings are mind boggling to say the least. I do 90% of the lab work in my office, either between patients, in the am before opening or in the pm after closing. However almost all of the time I can keep things on schedule by cutting between patients. It works great for us, we stock some lenses and that we don't stock we just ship in and have it at the latest, 2 days later.

I feel it would be a total mistake in todays world to open an office without a lab.

[Johns]

I do 90% of the lab work in my office, either between patients, in the am before opening or in the pm after closing.

I agree that the cost savings are awesome, but for me, working past closing would defeat the whole purpose of making more money.

[MarcE]

I feel it would be a total mistake in todays world to open an office without a lab.

The optometric consultant Gary Gerber says you need 2 things to open an optometric practice: a phoropter and an edger.

[ASenior]

Why would you want to put surfacing or finishing in your office? Why not?
-Steve

If only I could take Dr. Steve here with me when I meet with OD's about possible edging. Great input here thanks...

Johns, I always enjoy your perspective.

[Chris Ryser]

I'll chime in - I'm an OD who's had edging for 1.5 years now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

........................It takes a mild interest in optics to want to get an edger, but people with a larger interest in money and bottom line will put the labs in.
-Steve

This does not need any comments and just about sums it all up.

[snowmonster]

The funny thing is that everything I wrote was based on us using an inefficient Horizon II pattern edger.

We're working out the details of getting a Santinelli 9000SX Express in the office (demo is in right now) so that will make life A LOT easier. I'm amazed at how easy it can be with new equipment.

Of course, I'm also the guy that's trying to find every possible loophole to finding a way to start up a VSP contract lab too. :)

-Steve

[Fezz]

The funny thing is that everything I wrote was based on us using an inefficient Horizon II pattern edger.


Here I thought that I was the only one on the planet still using one of these! These WERE great in 1987. They can be modified a bit to run fairly well with todays frames.

Oh man...to have a new patternless edger!!!

[Chris Ryser]

Oh man...to have a new patternless edger!!!


I still have have my fully equipped cut and grind lab which we use for R&D only.

There is still a fine and well working MBA made by Essilor I purchased during my lab day's in 1972 for $ 7,500. The mechanical lens counter shows 97,500 lenses cut and it is still working fine...................but with patterns.

[optical24/7]

As some know here, I've recently taken a job with an OMD group. I left an optom practice where I edged all Rx's except glass, (use to do those too). We had very little Dr's changes and it made perfect sence to edge.

When I came into this practice my 1st question was why do we order 90% of Rx's finished when they have an edger. The big reason is that there are a lot of Dr's changes due to to the nature of the patient base. (post op., path, diabetics, ect). Most patients here wear top tier pals in hi-index with all the bells and whistles. On uncuts the best break you can get is usually 50% on remakes. On complete Rx's there are labs that redo for no or nominal charge. There's just not a huge economic incentive to edge these high $ Rx's. We are selective on what we process in house.

[Chris Ryser]

On complete Rx's there are labs that redo for no or nominal charge. There's just not a huge economic incentive to edge these high $ Rx's. We are selective on what we process in house.


These lab still have their overhead and material cost. If they redo at no, or minimal charges you paid ahead on top of every Rx they process so they can afford to make good on your mistakes. You actually purchase every job at an inflated price.

[ziggy]

-Why is the Optician so inclined to have a lab?

-And if I'm correct, why are a large number of Doctors reluctant to start an in-house lab?

MY 2 CENTS... an Optician by definition knows how to make glasses, or at least they should. We understand that having the ability to produce custom work can set us apart from the big box chains.
As to your second question... OD's/MD's not being trained how to produce eye ware, have tended to listen to wholesale lab sales people. They have been told for years that its too expensive, time consuming, and too technically difficult for their optician to do, even though most of those labs employee unskilled people, they just need to push buttons. They have been convinced that it's better to pay "X" times more than they need to for the lens. The Doc's have been getting conflicting info on the matter for years and really dint know how to even get started. The people who sell lab equipment will tell them that if they do 15-20 jobs a week they should put in a lab and the lab sales people are telling them that they need 150-200 jobs per week before they should even think about a lab. Most Doc's dont know which ends up when it comes to labs.

[snowmonster]

When I came into this practice my 1st question was why do we order 90% of Rx's finished when they have an edger. The big reason is that there are a lot of Dr's changes due to to the nature of the patient base. (post op., path, diabetics, ect). Most patients here wear top tier pals in hi-index with all the bells and whistles. On uncuts the best break you can get is usually 50% on remakes. On complete Rx's there are labs that redo for no or nominal charge. There's just not a huge economic incentive to edge these high $ Rx's. We are selective on what we process in house.

Good reason to start surfacing then. Remakes don't cost too much when that's the case.

-Steve

[Excel-Lentes]

The following is printed on the back of each invoice from my lab. I would imagine that this would prevent many OD's or MD's from doing their own lab work due to liability.


IMPORTANT!
Doctor or dispenser must read this notice.

Unfinished Components
(uncut lenses, glass lenses that are not heat treated or lenses that will be subject to any further processing such as edging, drilling, notching, grooving, etc.)

These lenses have been shipped to you as unfinished components. Since you have elected to perform the final stages of lens fabrication, you become the "manufacturer" in the eyes of the FDA and OSHA. Therefore, you are responsible for assuring full compliance with any applicable regulations that pertain to the impact resistance of dress and safety lenses. This includes testing, record keeping and any other requirements of the FDA and OSHA.

I used to work for a multi-office Ophthalmology practice and we were exploring the possibilities of putting in a finishing lab. A local wholesale lab came in to meet with the MD's (without informing any of the optical staff) and the lab reps scared the doctors away from putting together a lab. They claimed that it would be too expensive to get the equipment and space. Also the liability of becoming a manufacturer didn't help either.

[OpticLabRat]

The following is printed on the back of each invoice from my lab. I would imagine that this would prevent many OD's or MD's from doing their own lab work due to liability.




IMPORTANT!
Doctor or dispenser must read this notice.

Unfinished Components
(uncut lenses, glass lenses that are not heat treated or lenses that will be subject to any further processing such as edging, drilling, notching, grooving, etc.)

These lenses have been shipped to you as unfinished components. Since you have elected to perform the final stages of lens fabrication, you become the "manufacturer" in the eyes of the FDA and OSHA. Therefore, you are responsible for assuring full compliance with any applicable regulations that pertain to the impact resistance of dress and safety lenses. This includes testing, record keeping and any other requirements of the FDA and OSHA.

I used to work for a multi-office Ophthalmology practice and we were exploring the possibilities of putting in a finishing lab. A local wholesale lab came in to meet with the MD's (without informing any of the optical staff) and the lab reps scared the doctors away from putting together a lab. They claimed that it would be too expensive to get the equipment and space. Also the liability of becoming a manufacturer didn't help either.



Great Thread!!!


When it comes to liability, any problems will always fall on the final dispenser anyway. If the lab makes an "unsafe" pair of eyeglasses and it gets all the way though to the patients face, who do you think will be liable? I guarantee the lab will point the finger at the final dispenser every time. In all the licensed states I have worked in, it is the licensed optician who is the last safety net for the patient. They final inspect the eyewear and dispense it.

[HarryChiling]

it is the licensed optician who is the last safety net for the patient. They final inspect the eyewear and dispense it.

Bingo, we get all those disclaimers with our uncuts as well. I doubt the lab would jump in and save our @sses if they were to cut the pair. There is a significant savings in running a surfaceng lab under the right conditions, same goes for an edging lab. The labs will tell you it takes a million lenses to break even the equipment reps will tell you it only take one. I would recommend starting with a edging lab and with refurbished equipment first. This way the investment is minimal and the risk becomes small. Most will find that edging is easy and even the most difficult jobs are not that difficult to edge if you take your time. I am soaking this thread up as much as possible and have so far enjoyed the many perspectives.

[MarcE]

. . .OD's/MD's not being trained how to produce eye ware, . . .Most Doc's dont know which ends up when it comes to labs.

Regardless of what ODs do and don't know about eyewear, it does take some oversight and supervision to run even a finishing lab. It's hard to provide that supervision when you are kept in the dark all day (literally:p).
My experience is that it isn't very easy to obtain someone that is technical enough or trained enough to run a lab for a small OD's office on a salary that can be paid back with the edging savings. So by default, jobs get sent to the lab.

Also, anyone that is thinking about edging; you have to shop for a lab that provides uncuts. Don't just ask your lab that has been doing your finishing for an uncut price. They will price it to their advantage to keep you out of edging. Labs that specialize in uncuts know they are sharing the risk with you and therefore their costs are lower.

[ASenior]

It is a challenge for those who finally decide to go from a "finish" account to "uncut".
Some labs are cunning in the way they come up with their uncut price list. My favorite one is the lab that offers 10% off for uncut....

Dr. Smith says, "Andrew, the lab said that they give me 10% off for uncut and it won't make sense until my lab bills are up to 12-15k a month."

Lab 1 Doctor 0

SHOP YOUR UNCUT PRICE. And let them know you are shopping it. Tell them you are looking at 4 Labs and all 4 Reps will have their day in the sun with the Docs to pitch their lab, service and more importantly PRICE.

Again...

to increase your bottom line you can do 2 things today...
Increase prices OR decrease cost of goods.

[OpticLabRat]

SHOP YOUR UNCUT PRICE. And let them know you are shopping it. Tell them you are looking at 4 Labs and all 4 Reps will have their day in the sun with the Docs to pitch their lab, service and more importantly PRICE.



Excellent advice,
The labs would rather keep you as an uncut customer than lose you completely. Look at your detailed bills now, the uncut price should not rise because you are changing to an uncut account.

[Chris Ryser]

Dr. Smith says, "Andrew, the lab said that they give me 10% off for uncut and it won't make sense until my lab bills are up to 12-15k a month."

SHOP YOUR UNCUT PRICE. .
Increase prices OR decrease cost of goods.


Actually 10% off is peanuts for uncut.. There are plenty labs that will give you a lot more discount or have separate price lists for uncut lenses.

Anything you can do from additional lens treatments are worth their weight in gold. Anything not farmed out is money in the cash register. Tints, UV, Scratch resistant treatments are extras that cost a fraction and can be sold for many dollars.