Dispensing: Hand over the glasses?

[EyeFitWell]

When you dispense a new pair of glasses, do you hand them to the patient or put them on the patient? I usually hand the glasses over and say something about adjusting them, but I get a lot of people who put them on, look away from me at the mirror, fiddle with them, then take them off and hand them back saying they are loose. I'm thinking that these patients might be percieving this as incompetince on my part, even though logic would reason that I cannot adjust them without their head! What do you do to avoid this problem?

[For-Life]

I put them on most of the time.

I also make it clear that I am going to personally fit them first and then when the fitting is done I will check the vision.

I find less mirror chassers that way.

[Happylady]

I put them on the person almost all the time. I hate it when they immediately pull them off and tell me they are too loose! I usually tell the person I am going to have to adjust them before it put them on and if I know they will be loose I warn them ahead of time.

[Grubendol]

I don't care for putting them on myself, especially given our table layout, it's an awkward reach for me (not too tall!).

have thought about relocating the mirrors though ;)

[Dave Nelson]

Handing over the glasses puts the client in charge of the whole dispensing situation. Thats when they will start looking in the mirror, and begin telling you how they want the glasses adjusted. They will also frequently begin "testing" the vision, which won't be optimum, since you havn't adjusted them yet. It is proper and professional to put the glasses on the client's face, since you can tell a lot about how they fit by this very action. You also maintain control of the whole situation, and it allows you to let the client "test" the vision when you're ready, and when the unit has been properly aligned. You should never "hand over" the glasses, and you should nerver allow someone to walk out with new glasses which have never been adjusted. They don't fit. If someone insists on taking the glasses from you, or doesn't want them adjusted, you should advise them that its against your advice, and if they change their mind, you will adjust them when they return.

[Grubendol]

But, I honestly have a different opinion on this matter, and it's because of personal experience before I started working in the "biz". 9 times out of ten, when another optician puts glasses on me, they put them on the way I don't wear them, or even want to wear them. By allowing the pt. to put them on, as the dispensing optician, you can see how the patient handles the glasses and how they like to wear them, using that information to properly adjust them....at least IMHO.

[CME4SPECS]

I worked for a Guild optician for 13 years. He once told me that if I ever handed a pair of glasses to a patient, that I could follow that patient out the front door and go look for a new job. TRUE!

[Diane]

I worked for a Guild optician for 13 years. He once told me that if I ever handed a pair of glasses to a patient, that I could follow that patient out the front door and go look for a new job. TRUE!


I would agree with this statement. Professionals do the job, first, then ask how it feels. If the patient then wants to reposition them, you can readjust them then. It's never a one time shot anyway. Start in control and your patients feel more comfortable with you.

Diane

[EyeFitWell]

Well, it's not like I hand them over and wait for the pt to tell me if/what needs changing. I tried putting the glasses on the pt when I was first in the biz, and I ALWAYS missed an ear or pulled some hair or something ackward like that. I pull out the glasses and looking at the patient say, "Let's go ahead and try these on. I'm sure they'll need some adjusting, so I need to see how they fit now, and we'll get them nice and cumfy." Even with that warning, many many people test the vision, tell me what needs adjusting, etc. Your posts are exactly what I'm concerned about-that these folks think I don't know they need adjusting (even when I just said they did). Any tricks for sliding them on w/o poking someone's eye out or looking like a clumsy idiot? Do you ever have some pull back, like they're afraid of getting too close?

[Happylady]

Well, it's not like I hand them over and wait for the pt to tell me if/what needs changing. I tried putting the glasses on the pt when I was first in the biz, and I ALWAYS missed an ear or pulled some hair or something ackward like that. I pull out the glasses and looking at the patient say, "Let's go ahead and try these on. I'm sure they'll need some adjusting, so I need to see how they fit now, and we'll get them nice and cumfy." Even with that warning, many many people test the vision, tell me what needs adjusting, etc. Your posts are exactly what I'm concerned about-that these folks think I don't know they need adjusting (even when I just said they did). Any tricks for sliding them on w/o poking someone's eye out or looking like a clumsy idiot? Do you ever have some pull back, like they're afraid of getting too close?

Sometimes I can tell the patients wants to put them on themselves and I let them. Also, if a woman has hair pulled back sometimes it is tricky to put them on.

I have been known to miss an ear, I will sometimes turn that into a compliment by telling her it's cause her ears are so nice and small! If I miss a couple of times I usually just laugh about it and let them do it.

Your experience of the person telling you what needs adjusting and testing vision seems pretty common. We have mirrors on all the tables(and no I can't remove them)and people always want to look at themselves first.

[HarryChiling]

The most improtant part of getting glasses is the vision. If you place the glasses where they are supposed to go on a patients face you are less likely to get the dreaded "I can't see outa these". For progressives they are supposed to be fitted close to the face with minimal vertex distance and a 7.5 degree panto, if you just hand them to the patient the first thing they do is say they can't see and from there you have lost the patients confidence. Not a good way to start, however; if you adjust them for the patient then place them on in the correct position, the patient can see well(if everything goes as acording to plan). High Rx's and progressives are trickier to dispense when you don't place them on the patient and make sure that everything is aligned.

[FVCCHRIS]

But, I honestly have a different opinion on this matter, and it's because of personal experience before I started working in the "biz". 9 times out of ten, when another optician puts glasses on me, they put them on the way I don't wear them, or even want to wear them. By allowing the pt. to put them on, as the dispensing optician, you can see how the patient handles the glasses and how they like to wear them, using that information to properly adjust them....at least IMHO.

Hey Grub, did your Dad just slide you the keys to the Oldsmobile when it was time to learn to drive? He probably showed you a few pointers first before "seeing how you wanted to drive" huh? :D I know what you mean though, there are those patients who "freak" when you go to put 'em on huh? How's the managing coming along? Chris..

[Grubendol]

Actually yeah my dad handed me the keys when I was 13, but he was drunk and in Mexico, so.... ;)

[FVCCHRIS]

I should have known!

[Grubendol]

And I guess I just don't like to invade other people's space unless I have to. And when taking measurements I have to. But when adjusting, I have them put them on and then I immediately go for the ear reach, but I let them slide them on.

[FVCCHRIS]

I think some people have an extraordinary fear of things coming "at their eyes". I suppose someone pointing two temples at my face might provoke a response of some kind. Chris..

[Refractingoptician.com]

]]

[Johns]

And I guess I just don't like to invade other people's space unless I have to.

What space!?! Their in YOUR office!:D

I wholeheartedly agree with Dave, Diane, and most of the others.

You put them on where they SHOULD wear them.
Put yourself in control of the dispensing, and stay there.
Tell them what your going to do(adjusting), and the results you're expecting.
Tell them when they are adjusted properly, not when they think they are.

[Jubilee]

I admit I normally don't put the glasses on the person. My take on the situation is that many people like to wear their glasses in different positions. I have patients who like them a little farther from the face, and others who want their lashes practically touching. I have some who like a "looser fit" than others. Heck I like my temples behind the bone and not right behind my ears (can sometimes cause headaches)

Since I take my measurments by having them place the glasses where they want them to sit, when the pick up, I normally have them put them on intially to make sure the elements all line up.

Start adjusting from front to back...

I explain to the patient when they come in from the dispense that I will have them put on the glasses, start with adjustments working from front (making sure even, OC's/Segs lined up, nose pads flush with proper splay, etc) to the back. We talk about how they like for them to fit (contoured to the ear, standard, or loose) and go from there. After an intial adjustment, acuity will be checked, additional adjustments based upon feedback, and then refresh cleaning and care.

It has worked really well with me, and by having the conversation with the patient, they believe they are getting individualized care.

Cassandra

[Nettie]

My hands shake quite a bit so I am not comfortable putting specs on a patient. Before I hand specs to them I say "Please try these on so I can tell if anything needs to be better aligned" and then they know i am planning on fitting and checking the adjustment.

[EyeFitWell]

This brings up a sepeate point: Have you ever had a pt (especially young boys) who insist they prefer to wear their glasses smashed into their face or some other equally "improper" fitting? I encounter this from time to time and explain that the vision will not be corrected properly unless they are worn properly. Pt still insists. Sometimes I think I should insist more. I am the one who knows about glasses...why do pts think I'm making this stuff up?? I could bust out some formulas for them and proove it!
So do you ever insist that they should be worn correctly, regardless of whether the pt likes them that way?

[CME4SPECS]

This brings up a sepeate point: Have you ever had a pt (especially young boys) who insist they prefer to wear their glasses smashed into their face or some other equally "improper" fitting? I encounter this from time to time and explain that the vision will not be corrected properly unless they are worn properly. Pt still insists. Sometimes I think I should insist more. I am the one who knows about glasses...why do pts think I'm making this stuff up?? I could bust out some formulas for them and proove it!
So do you ever insist that they should be worn correctly, regardless of whether the pt likes them that way?


They are going to wear them where they darn well please!

[EyeFitWell]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Dr. writes a prescription for a certain vertex distance. That's why contacts have a different dioptor power than specs. If the pt. insists on wearing them closer or farther than they "should," the lenses are not achieving the refraction the Dr. intended. I know it can be adjusted to suit how they will actually be worn, but the Doc hardly ever looks at that unless the Optician brings it to his attention.

[CME4SPECS]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Dr. writes a prescription for a certain vertex distance. That's why contacts have a different dioptor power than specs. If the pt. insists on wearing them closer or farther than they "should," the lenses are not achieving the refraction the Dr. intended. I know it can be adjusted to suit how they will actually be worn, but the Doc hardly ever looks at that unless the Optician brings it to his attention.

When the doc gives you a vertex distance it generally is where he refracted them not where the glasses are worn. So, if it's a strong rx you need to compensate. Or 99.9% of the time...don't worry about it!

[EyeFitWell]

I'm not saying the Doc gives me a virtex distance. I'm saying he's assuming a certain vertex distance. Just like they assume you read about 20 inches out, and the Rx needs to be compensated if you like to read at your knee, or two inches from your face. The reading thing is a personal opinion, I don't mind where you want to read. I do mind, however, when a patient is told they are disrupting their vision by wearing them that way, and they insist they want to wear them like that anyway. That's like saying I prefer to drive to work in reverse, and I'll do so if I please, despite logical reasons not to.

I guess I'm just trying to feel out how much "authority" I have, or should use, as the optician.
For example, when a pt wants a frame that is an improper fit and cannot be adjusted to fit, I just make a note of it after explaining that to the pt. Sometimes, I wonder if I'm best off refusing to sell a poor fit. I mean, on one hand, they're the customer. It's them I'm trying to please. On the other hand, when they come in complaining of it being uncomfortable, it's my fault (in their mind) that they are. It's surprising sometimes how some people don't care what I say, even though I'm the one who was trained to do this.
Another example: Pt comes in and says their glasses slide, and they'd like the nosepads tightened. I explain that I can certainly adjust the glasses to stay put, but tightening the nose pads will simply raise the frame. It does not keep them in place. Pt says, "I'm going to have to disagree with you." Ok, so at this point you walk to the back and bend the temples, pt says they feel better and leaves thinking I tightened the nose pads.

I want my customers to feel taken care of. I want them to be satisfied and trust me. I don't want to be too pushy about their decisions, but I'm still trying to figure out where the line is. There are some things I refuse to do, and other things I make a cya note and do with a smile. Would you put a glass lens in an inline frame if one was a balance? No. But what if the pt. wants you to despite your explination? When do you refuse, and when do you do what the pt wants?

[CME4SPECS]

It's in your best interest to fit them to your patient's satisfaction. Some people like their segs so low that they are not useable. They aren't where you would "normally" fit them. But Hey, if that's what they want ...give it to them.

[Grubendol]

If you put them where they "SHOULD" wear them, but they really don't or won't wear them that way, then you are fitting them incorrectly, especially in the case of a PAL. Some people will always wear them low, because of their bridge or their particular wearing habits. Why fight it, and instead use it to your advantage?

[HarryChiling]

Eyefitwell, as an optician you should fit them where they "SHOULD" be. If they leave the office and wear them where they should not be, that's their business. As for the intial fit that is your responsibility as a compotent optician. If you look at any progressive fitting chart they tell you make sure to fit them close, put a 7-12 panto tilt, and proper face form. Those that tell you otherwise have to deal with their own redos.

If you put them where they "SHOULD" wear them, but they really don't or won't wear them that way, then you are fitting them incorrectly, especially in the case of a PAL.

That's what we call a contradiction. : )

[harry a saake]

This post reminds me of an actual true story that happened to me while working an eckerd optical in gainesville ,georgia back in 1979. the patients for the most part were from up in the hills of north georgia and very very conservative to say the least.

A lady rcvd a prescription that was something like -7.00 -4.75 axis 145 ou
As i was dispensing them to her, she decided that she wanted them really angled in, like what would have been about 20 degrees of panto, i refused and she left in a huff.

About an hour later i rcvd a call from the husband, who spoke in a very very monotone voice. it went like this: are you the boy that was ugly to my wife, cause lord only knows that thers my wife thelma and lord only knows i sure do love her so, and i dont want nobody being ugly to her.

i explained what happened, and why and he said, i willl bring her down tomorrow and i will take the responsibility, cause lord only knows, thats my wife thelma and i sure do love her so.

Walks in next day and comes up to me and says, Mr. Saake , i,m mr jones and this here is my wife thelma, and lord only knows i sure do love her so and if youll put them dere glasses on the way she wants , ill take the responsibility(still in the monotone voice). i said ok and i bent the temples on the glasses so they were into her cheeks.

Next thing i know she looks around for a few seconds and says, I CAN,T SEE OUT OF THESE THIS WAY!, i explained thats what i had meant all along.

With that, little meek monotone voiced jones jumps out of the chair, and in a loud voice says, WOMEN, I DON,T THINK YOU KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU WANT, and just as quickly comes over to me, and back to the monotone voice, and says, Mr. Saake, if youll put them dere glasses on my wife the way you want , ill take the responsibility, cause lord only knows, that there is my wife thelma and i sure do love her so.

[Nettie]

That is hilarious Harry!!:bbg:

[optigrrl]

Wellll - I'm not a control freak, but I know when to take charge of a situation....

First, I sit them down. Then, before I open the case the frames are in I make a point to move the mirror out of the range of vision (so the patient isn't invited to look at an unadjusted frame).

I then point out a positive like how fast/well the job came in, and then do the "halfway" reach-with-pause - to see if the pt. expects me to put them on for them or wants to be the alpha and put them on themselves. Either gesture is acceptable and I immediately explain that I will be doing some adjustments before checking the VA. However, taking the mirror out of the equation makes the job easier!

Depending on the pt., I like to joke about the frame falling off or worse, sitting on their forhead! For me, this opens up the conversation about how the patient likes their frames adjusted and if they have any sensitive spots I need to be aware of...

Only after I insure a proper fit do I check VA and see the frames on themselves.

I try to 'read' the patient's body language and respond accordingly for adjustments but make a point to avoid letting them focus on anything before fitting them properly.

[EyeFitWell]

If you put them where they "SHOULD" wear them, but they really don't or won't wear them that way, then you are fitting them incorrectly, especially in the case of a PAL. Some people will always wear them low, because of their bridge or their particular wearing habits. Why fight it, and instead use it to your advantage?
Just for the record, I always ask if they have had trouble with bifocals/prog before, and look at where the fitting cross/seg is now. Then, I ask how satisfied they are with the current fit. If there are no complaints, it's all gravy! If there are, I adjust accordingly. I would never insist that the seg be somewhere uncomfortable to the patient. I'm talking about things like harry's hilarious story when the lenses are already made and the fit the pt wants will surely destroy the VA.

[Win C]

What I would normally do is ensure that the frame is in proper alighnment after taking it out of the case.

After that, depending on the personality of the patients, I would either put the glasses on them myself (for most kids) or I would let them put it on themselves (for most adults).

For adults, if i am delivering a pair of multifocals or progressive lenses, I would not hand it over to the patient. I would put them on and make sure they fit properly before I evaluate their vision.

I would let the patient wear the glasses themselves for a pair of single vision glsses. I would ask the patient to put on the glasses and then tell them I will need to check the fit before letting them look at the mirror or walk around with their new glasses. But then most of the time they will remove the glasses before you can see what needs to be adjusted. :rolleyes:

[cocoisland58]

I never put them on their head. No one likes that. I set them down in front of them open with the temples toward them. They pick them up, put them on and I say let's make sure they fit, OK? If they take them off and hand them to me I say, I need you to leave them on for a minute so I can check the fit. Then I adjust them. No problem.

[Cindy K]

I was taught by old-timers in the industry (sorry, John and David) 18 years ago. Thus, the unit is placed upon the client when dispensing UNLESS:

-- a wig or hairpiece is involved (y'all know what can happen with one of them)

-- a turban is involved (ever try cramming a pair of temples between a tightly wound piece of cloth and an ear?)

-- a client reaches for the glasses en-route to the nose/ear area and physically takes them out of my hands.

The dispenser learns much about the fit of a pair of glasses from the simple act of placing them on the head. I can feel the tightness, and where it may be tight before even looking behind the ear by performing this action. I always ask the client to show me where they prefer wearing the glasses (if a bif/prog/highRX wearer)on the nose prior to performing the initial measurements and for the most part the frame is adjusted accordingly for the nose fit prior to dispensing, including vertex and, thus the only concerns are the temple splay, temple curl, and pantos.

I may be old-school, but I firmly believe we are more likely to earn a client's respect when we maintain control over all situations, including the dispenser placing the glasses on the nose. Heck, I often perform this function when assisting in frame selection!

[Johns]

No one likes that. I set them down in front of them open with the temples toward them.

No one ? You've had the opportunity to fit everyone ?:rolleyes:

[cocoisland58]

No one ? You've had the opportunity to fit everyone ?:rolleyes:


Obviously I have not had the opportunity to fit everyone and was generalizing. What is with the sarcasm on this board anyway? I have been in the business for 30 years and certainly know how to adjust a pair of glasses. I do what is comfortable for me and for my patients. I joined this board to perhaps learn something new and to help the opticians just starting out. Eye rolling is uncalled for.

[FVCCHRIS]

What is with the sarcasm on this board anyway? I have been in the business for 30 years and certainly know how to adjust a pair of glasses. I do what is comfortable for me and for my patients. I joined this board to perhaps learn something new and to help the opticians just starting out. Eye rolling is uncalled for.

Your stated reasons for joining this board are admirable ones and I am sure you will find this Board a rewarding experience as I have. Eye-rolling is actually a common occurence here although it isn't always followed up with a few sharp edged key strokes. :p I think they(I can't say we 'cuz I'm a newbie too!) do like to pick on the Newbies, you call 'em as you see 'em, Chris..

[EyeFitWell]

Don't forget, text can be taken to be insulting when the writer meant it as a joke or just poking fun. I'm not sure what the intention was here, but I've not found folks on this board to be mean, so try to assume the best!:D

[Alan W]

When I remove the glasses from their protective envelop I always say "Let me put them on you first. I need to know how much tension there is. Then I need you to take them off and let you put them on again."

I do that for several reasons . . .
1, control. Until I bless the specs, I'm in charge and take full responsibility for the fit.

2, I NEVER give the customer a chance to complain about the fit. And, if there's going to be a time when they will do so, it's going to be when I gave them permission by giving up control.

3, Depending on the lenses, I talk to the customer while I put them on and explain what they will experience. I even instruct them to do certain things while I am placing them on, such as looking down at a reading card or looking straight out, or do not let your eyes wander or I'll have to smack you....type thing!

Some opticians have this uncanny nack of knowing exactly what pressure etc. to set the specs for out of the box with no touch up needed. . . I ain't one of them! So, when I feel I am ready to answer questions etc. I tell them "It's your turn."
I've overheard a few of my customers over the years tell friends . . ."He really takes care of you." Maybe the delivering/fitting process I use is one of them. But, then, maybe it's that free trip to to the USVI I give away with each pair. Wouldn't that be so cool? (Just Dreaming!)

Thanks,
Alan W

[Johns]

What is with the sarcasm on this board anyway? I have been in the business for 30 years and certainly know how to adjust a pair of glasses. I do what is comfortable for me and for my patients. I joined this board to perhaps learn something new and to help the opticians just starting out. Eye rolling is uncalled for.

:eek: :rolleyes: :idea:

I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just stating the obvious. You said "no one likes that...", In my offices, we have hundreds of people every week that like it! And those that don't like it, aren't offended enough to say anything about it. We've even recieved letters from people that say, "Other places just hand the glasses to you..." (Realy!)

I was raised never to say "everyone, nobody, every, or none", unless it held true all the time.


No need to get your underpants in a bunch!

...just an English thing.
:eek: :rolleyes: ;) :idea: :rolleyes: :idea: :cool:

[Ory]

I was raised never to say "everyone, nobody, every, or none", unless it held true all the time.


No need to get your underpants in a bunch!



You're just assuming everybody wears underpants now! :eek:

[Johns]

You're just assuming everybody wears underpants now! :eek:


I was only rolling eyes...you're hitting below the belt!

(Also, in an attempt to not be sexist, I purposely didn't say "panties" - see how sensitive I am?)

[EyeFitWell]

"I've overheard a few of my customers over the years tell friends . . ."He really takes care of you." Maybe the delivering/fitting process I use is one of them. "
Alan's got a great point, and actually that's what brought this question up in my mind.
When I first started in the biz, I worked for an optician who was one of those big-ring-wearin, wheelin-and-deelin, I'll-hook-you-up kind of men. I only worked with him for about a month and I must admit, I personally didn't like his style. His office intentionally marketed to lower income type people (advertized in the Val-Pack). When a pt came in to see him, they would sit at his table while he choose frames off the board and set them on the pt's face, telling them what looked good or bad. I never heard anyone complain, but I always thought to myself, "You cannot tell people what they do or do not like." When working with a pt, I do offer my opinion, but I also ask for theirs. This guy basically choose the glasses for the pt. Then, he sat down with them and talked lenses. He choose the best lens for them (He wasn't going to sell high index to a +0.25, so he was pretty fair about it) and he would make each person think they were getting a special deal. "Now, normally, I would charge $60 for polycarb. However, I like you. I'll give it to you for $40." People ATE IT UP! I thought it was a little decieving, since he always cut the same deal with everyone. Plus, if I were the customer, I would wonder why he seemed to like me so much after meeting me five minutes ago...I don't think I would have been fooled.

Well, a couple weeks ago, I had someone walk into my office who had purchased glasses from that Optician for years. She had seen our doctor but always went back to him for the glasses. I asked her why, and she said she liked the way he "handled" her. I was surprised, because if I had walked into that store to buy glasses, I would have very much disliked being "handled" that way. But then again, I'm one of those "engineer-type personalities" and I don't like to be touched by strangers.

It just made me think, though, how patients percieve their interaction with me. Granted, I think I always proove that I know my info. The textbook knowledge is there. But I wonder if I'm lacking in that "I'll take care of you" kind of feel. I guess it's different folks, different strokes, but when I encounter a salesman with that attitude, it concerns me that he's trying to slide some deal by me while distracting my attention. Kind of like what you'd think of a stereotypical Used Car Salesman. It's not the kind of experience that instills feelings of trust, in me. It was fascinating to know that other people actually loved it so much as to become loyal to him for years!
So, Alan, I'm curious what you think of all this. Do you "handle" your customers? Or do you provide services for them? Do you ask their opinions on frames and lenses? Or, do you tell them what they need?

[Johns]

[quote=EyeFitWell;162925 I never heard anyone complain, but I always thought to myself, "You cannot tell people what they do or do not like." [/quote]

Eyefitwell:

Great observations. Can't we all take bits and pieces of that optician's style (just the good parts) and use them everyday? We don't need to be car salesmen, but don't we all want to be known as being the "go to" guy/gal?


When you are the professional, people do look to you to tell them what they should get. Not the the final decision isn't their's, but if you put something on them that they otherwise wouldn't have conisidered, you are not "handling" them, but taking care of them.

I had the owner of a very popular upscale chineese rest. come in last month. She said she was a quiet person, and wanted glasses that "blended" in.
Long story /short: She bought a Kahiyama with neon purple, green, and pink on it. She looks fabulous, she couldn't believe "she" picked them out, and has sent a number of referals since. Had she been left to pick out something she was used to, it would have just been another pair of glasses.

[Alan W]

I used to ruv serring grasses to Oriento patients.
They would arways come in with ownwee run dowa.
But, if you made them happy they rood spend a rot of dowas.
And, they reery knew what they were talking about.

An extremely intelligent market segment. And, they know what service, quality and professional advice really is all about. If we do a good job, they do the "word of mouth work" better than anyone. I've had the opportunity to work with several oriental opticians in their own businesses. You're lucky if you leave their store with your pants still on, cause they can sell your pants right off you. Somehow, they have this uncanny ability to tell you what you need, right or wrong, and in a couple seconds you're agreeing with your Visa card. Maybe it's that fast bow. When I try it I throw my lower lumbar into spasms!

And, yes, I'm grossly generalizing! I have to. Gross is back from lunch and he owns the place!

Yes?
No?

Alan W