Help!!! Rayban Will Not Let Me Return Frames!

[CCGREEN]

:angry: Ok here is the deal. The Sales Rep. for our area, XXXXXXXXX, came in and agreed to do a even exchange with us for some sunglasses that were not moveing, a dollar amount of about $500. After he left someone found an aditional 50 rayban frames hidden. So we called XXXXXXX and told him not to send us any frames. Cancle the order. He did not, not only did he send us more frames he sent us $1362.95. Now that is more then the "Even exchange" Now we never sighned any paper authorizing him to do this. Never gave verbal aproval to do this. So then I get in touch with his regional manager, XXXXXXXXX who drags his heels geting in touch with us and when he did he was of no help to us in returning these frames. Next step I get in touch with Luxottica and the young ladys that answer the phone tell me we have four months to return the frames for credit. So I send them back. Afew weeks later we get the same frames back and I called and was told that XXXXXXXXX told them to send the frames back to us. Now that the sunglasses have been sent back to us without us requesting them are thay a "gift" to us? Do we have to pay for them? Am I obligated to return them? If so should Luxottica send us a pick-up order? I again called Luxottica and was given the voice mail of the Vice President of Sales, XXXXXXXXXX who is still yet to return my call but his voice message did list four other people I could talk to and none of them have returned my call as of yet. But still as it stands, we do not want these frames, we do not want Rayban sunglass in our store, We would much rather send them ALL back. If any one has any suggestions on how to handle this and our leagle rights please let me know at my E-mail address or on this site. [ccgforeyes@yahoo.com.] Thanks for the input, Chris.

[Framebender]

on an original invoice within 90 days. At least that used to be their policy. Maybe the rep here on Optiboard can shed some light.

Good luck to you!!

[ziggy]

Still the policy, I sent some stuff last month. Send the new stuff back, Then whip his a$$ next time he comes in.

[optirep]

First off You really should not post names!

Second How do you have 50 Ray-Bans and don't know it!

Third you did an Exchange



You have 4 months to return phone orders. If you go and exchange with a rep you don't. You can't just return frames at any time because you found some.

Your rep was doing you a favor by doing a 1 for 1 exchange.


I think there is more to this story than you are letting on. Sounds like a revenge post more than anything. But I may be wrong.

[Jubilee]

The reason he is probably sending back the frames is because you did an exchange, and they are just that.. an exchange.

Now you do have some points to talk to him or the manager about. Like when does even exchange equal an extra $1300+ bucks.

Though when you received your statement, did you notice if you received your credits from the exchange. Typically what they do is charge in full for the new order, and then treat the returns as such, and credit the acct. I know that we have had some trouble here in the past with being invoiced before our return/exchange credits have been applied. Especially if this took place in the last week of the month..The rep places the order the same day electronically, but the glasses have to travel back to the warehouse. Typically it can be a week to ten days before your credits get applied...

In the past when I have had a bill for $xxx show up, and I know it doesn't include our credits, I will call and ask them if I can use that towards our current bill and just pay total due (we usually never carry a balance). Since I see reps every 8-12 weeks, I do not want to carry a constant credit on my acct. So far, they have always been willing to let me do that. Depending upon how many frames were part of the "exchange" that might be the discrepancy.

I am not sure how 50 frames can be hidden, but it isn't the rep's fault that you had forgotten about these frames. The rep agreed to an even exchange for the initial amount, and if those other 50 frames are older than 4 months, then you can not send them back.

Now, what I have been doing with one of my reps who has a line in our office that isn't moving, is exchanging 5-7 a visit for a line that is moving of theirs, and then purchasing a few extra that aren't in the exchange to at least acknowledge that they don't always come out even on an even exchange..

The rep is happy, cause while we are getting rid of one line, we are increasing our space for their other line. Overall, he is coming out ahead in space allocation. Two, he is winning us over due to the level of service he is willing to provide. Next time he is in, we will exchange the last group out, keeping a handful of the other line to show we have access to it and feature some unique styles it has to offer instead of ones that are found in most lines out there.

While this isn't Lux, my Lux reps have all stated that if my sun doesn't move well enough for me, they are willing to exchange them out for ophthalmic as well.

So don't burn the rep at the stake yet. See if you can work out an agreement of some sorts.

[For-Life]

send it back, close the account

Do not need to be a pawn in their game.

[Barry Santini]

If you don't know if you're *missing* 50 RAy BAn Frames....well..

SHAME ON YOU!

Its this type of exchanging that gives our field a bad name.

If I were the rep, I'd tell you to get lost if you weren't going to be reasonable

FWIW

Barry

[For-Life]

Errr...

From my understand, the poster cancelled the exchange, and then the rep still sent it and sent more than asked for. Then when returned, Lux refused to process it.

It does not matter that he found 50 frames, as he still cancelled the order. Also, what is with the rep sending much more than he ordered?

[CCGREEN]

Nice to see For-Life read and understood the whole post. And also please do not chop me up to much. The Optician that was here for a Year and a half had stached those frames aside along with many other strange things being done and he was releived of duty and I had the joy of comeing in and fixing all this stuff.

[Fezz]

Lucky You ;^)


Good luck!


Fezz
:cheers:

[Jubilee]

Well maybe there is some miscommunication then. Did you send the other frames back for credit as part of the "exchange" before cancelling it?

Cause if the exchange was cancelled you should be sent back the those frames as well.. or at least product of equal dollar value. I can't see where the same number of strictly rayban frames can come to that high of a discrepancy $$$ wise.

It seems to me that other items have been missed as well.

Does anyone take inventory?
Are statements generally reviewed?
Lines analyzed to compare sell thru rate?
P&L Cost of goods?


This should also be of concern to the owner, and not just whoever was the previous buyer/manager.. If the person was relieved from duty for gross misconduct, negligence, failure to perform, or whatever, wouldn't that call for a complete review of inventory vs invoices vs sales... I mean how would you have known if the "stashed" frames had simply disappeared? Like into the back of his car and eventually on Ebay?

With 50 sun frames, being Rayban, this is a several thousand dollar "discrepancy". While my doc is certainly a bit "hands off" in some matters, I still have to give him a general financial statement sheet monthly, and a more indepth view quarterly.

I don't mean to sound harsh.. I am just trying to understand the whole situation.

As I said, you can either try to switch things out with the rep for a line he has that might do well.. or you can cancel everything, including your relationship with the rep/company and use them for "clean sweeps", have a sale, or sell them on Ebay...

Cassandra

[Jo]

I removed the names in the original post. That's getting a bit too personal.

[Steelerfan]

A friend of mine in Upstate NY that has his own shop had almost the same scenario happen to him. He fought and fought and fought and shipped frames back to B&L multiple times, and they kept shipping them back. He ended up refusing to pay the invoice and refused to sign for the frames the last time B&L tried to ship them back to him. I think he never eally won and it in the end affected his credit and he never ordered from Luxottica again. Just a horrible way to do business for Luxottica in my book.

[Chris Ryser]

I think he never eally won and it in the end affected his credit and he never ordered from Luxottica again. Just a horrible way to do business for Luxottica in my book.


Any frame company has to order whatever amount of frames and models they want............receive them and also pay for them, then sell them with a profit and sales commissions added to the retailer.

When the retailer made an order.....................it becomes a sale.

In the optical trade it seems that in the frame business a sale is not a sale, when the retailer decides 6 month later to return a large portion of his prior order.

As this system seem to be a standard these days, the frame companies have to add a certain amount for unwanted returns to their selling price which actually makes the frames overpriced.

I wonder what discount % a frame company would give you on top of all others if you would agree on a no return policy except for warranty cases.

[CCGREEN]

Nope the order was cancelled the same day it was made. Like within an hour. If he had just sent me back the frames that I was returning then all would be fine but he didnt and then sent us a, 2 new frames to 1 old frame order. Along with a $1300. statement. Now the rep will not call me, his reagional manager will not help, the assisant to the Vice President of sales just refered back to the reigonal manager who still is yet to call me. For a week and a half I have been leaving messages on the voice mail of the Vice President of sales who is yes to call me. Makes one wonder why no one wants to call me, I'm not going to beat them up, I just want to return this order. Thay are lucky that I am not wanting them to take back the 50 sunglasses we found along with this order, take their name off our door and let everyone else in town know how poor a service I have received from them.

[hcjilson]

I wonder what discount % a frame company would give you on top of all others if you would agree on a no return policy except for warranty cases.


I heard a figure of 30% today from the president of an unnamed frame company. We discussed the industry's frame return policy at some length.I have always been against returns and I am a practitioner. It artificially inflates frame prices and promotes sloppy buying habits without the buyer having to assume any responsibility. Its a terrible industry practice and should be scrapped.

[dcdwn]

HI CC.GREEN,

I feel that when you started your new job you should have cleaned, looked for frames and other inventory before ordering new inventory.
It is a bad thing that the rep and frame vendor has done. I hope you can work it out.

ThankYou
Don Price abo/ncle
still friends fuzzy

[CCGREEN]

Don, this order was placed a week before I started here and has been dumped in my lap and all I know is we have a box full of Ray Bans that we do not need and all I want to do is return them and get credit for it. I do not feel that is asking to much.

[Audiyoda]

Frist, welcome to dealing with Luxottica.

Second, retailing in general has standard return rules - we in the optical trade don't seem to follow them - I would like to, but my manufacturers don't. Luxottica's 90 day policy is as close as I've seen to what is considered standard in retail - but getting Luxottica to honor that policy is like pulling teeth from a rabid dog.

Luxottica is renouned for exchanges that benefit them - their definition of even exchange is a 2 for 1. Lux always talks a good game, but never practice what they preach.

A friend of mine got involved with that sunwear offer they made last quarter - X number of frames and a display with 6 month billing starting 1/1/07, all returnable by 12/31/06 if you're not happy with the way the product is selling. Well the doc wasn't impressed with what was sent (they are a higher end office but got baseline product) so he wanted it all returned. Rep won't return their calls, Lux won't return calls to get the display picked up by the shipping company...the doc is PO'ed and I don't blame him.

[cganes2]

My first question is...why are you buying frames from a manufacturer that is in direct competition with you...My feeling on the whole thing is we as business owners should all get together and charge the frame companies for their board space, like the grocery stores do to the cigarette companies etc...We pay the rent, the light bill, and the payroll to sell their frames so.... why not charge them rent to display their wares in our offices?What is everyone's feeling on this ?

[Jubilee]

Frist, welcome to dealing with Luxottica.

Second, retailing in general has standard return rules - we in the optical trade don't seem to follow them - I would like to, but my manufacturers don't. Luxottica's 90 day policy is as close as I've seen to what is considered standard in retail - but getting Luxottica to honor that policy is like pulling teeth from a rabid dog.

Luxottica is renouned for exchanges that benefit them - their definition of even exchange is a 2 for 1. Lux always talks a good game, but never practice what they preach.

A friend of mine got involved with that sunwear offer they made last quarter - X number of frames and a display with 6 month billing starting 1/1/07, all returnable by 12/31/06 if you're not happy with the way the product is selling. Well the doc wasn't impressed with what was sent (they are a higher end office but got baseline product) so he wanted it all returned. Rep won't return their calls, Lux won't return calls to get the display picked up by the shipping company...the doc is PO'ed and I don't blame him.

I must be the lucky one with my reps. The only time I had to exchange 2 for 1 was when I decreased my Versace and replaced it with Anne Klein. So that was a bit more understandable since pricing is definitely not the same.

We also took advantage of the sun promotion. I selected the offerings from Rayban, Revo, Persol, Versace, and Anne Klein, while the other lines were selected by the reps due to scheduling issues. What we did was say, I want 20 pieces of Adrienne Vitadini, or 10 pieces DKNY.. so while we didn't chose individual styles, they knew what we were looking for.

When we went into it, we knew full well we would be sending half of them back. The only reason why we ordered so much was due to getting the fixtures and the financing. We were told we only had 4 months to decide what to keep or what to send back. I had everything in writing, and at the end of the four month frame after the first arrived, we weeded out what we knew wouldn't work for the 2 offices. Now I didn't have my reps send them back, I took my invoices, spent a dollar on photocopies, packaged them up and sent them back myself. Shipping them priority with insurance and signature confirmation cost us about $50, but I had a several thousand dollar credit in 2 weeks.

My reps have all offered to exchange out what sun doesn't work for ophthalmic and vise versa. They all respond back to me very quickly if I am looking for a frame, or if I have a question. They even stayed in touch with me when I was asking them questions about my large return. I must say my experience with their reps have been outstanding. However, I now have two new ones, so we will have to see how that goes.

While I have many beefs with Luxottica, I have no issue with my reps.

Cassandra

[optirep]

I must be the lucky one with my reps. The only time I had to exchange 2 for 1 was when I decreased my Versace and replaced it with Anne Klein. So that was a bit more understandable since pricing is definitely not the same.

We also took advantage of the sun promotion. I selected the offerings from Rayban, Revo, Persol, Versace, and Anne Klein, while the other lines were selected by the reps due to scheduling issues. What we did was say, I want 20 pieces of Adrienne Vitadini, or 10 pieces DKNY.. so while we didn't chose individual styles, they knew what we were looking for.

When we went into it, we knew full well we would be sending half of them back. The only reason why we ordered so much was due to getting the fixtures and the financing. We were told we only had 4 months to decide what to keep or what to send back. I had everything in writing, and at the end of the four month frame after the first arrived, we weeded out what we knew wouldn't work for the 2 offices. Now I didn't have my reps send them back, I took my invoices, spent a dollar on photocopies, packaged them up and sent them back myself. Shipping them priority with insurance and signature confirmation cost us about $50, but I had a several thousand dollar credit in 2 weeks.

My reps have all offered to exchange out what sun doesn't work for ophthalmic and vise versa. They all respond back to me very quickly if I am looking for a frame, or if I have a question. They even stayed in touch with me when I was asking them questions about my large return. I must say my experience with their reps have been outstanding. However, I now have two new ones, so we will have to see how that goes.

While I have many beefs with Luxottica, I have no issue with my reps.

Cassandra


My guess is that you actually sell some frames!
If a rep is making money they are much more inclined to help out a customer. If they do exchange after exchange for little money they are not.

[optirep]

My first question is...why are you buying frames from a manufacturer that is in direct competition with you...My feeling on the whole thing is we as business owners should all get together and charge the frame companies for their board space, like the grocery stores do to the cigarette companies etc...We pay the rent, the light bill, and the payroll to sell their frames so.... why not charge them rent to display their wares in our offices?What is everyone's feeling on this ?

Ok Charging for board space. Let's say a company pays you $1 a month for each 100 board spaces and does this for about 10,000 accounts across the country! That comes out to 12,000,000 a year. That means the frame prices have to go up. Not just to cover the 12 mil but also the added admin costs.
What company could afford this. The largest company HIGHMARK that owns Viva and Luxottica. Which means all the other companies go out of business. I don't think that is going to happen!

[Chris Ryser]

.................... should all get together and charge the frame companies for their board space, like the grocery stores do to the cigarette companies etc...?


Not a bad idea if you want to get rated like a mass article vendor.

It would be more advisable to act like it was done in older day's, buy smart, pay for them, and do a no return policy deal with a frame company and get extra large discounts.

[cganes2]

OK Spoken like a true salesman...

[Chris Ryser]

OK Spoken like a true salesman...


How come you know of my past life...........? I used to be a good one on top of that, .............but that is a long time ago.

Today I am a plain simple business man that runs a business were you have to make decisions that can make or break you.

Opticians have always been a profession when they are good ones they build up a good business, make good money and can afford a decent life style.

I do not see that a good business man has to rely on borrowed money (frames) forever.........and that is the gimmick with consignment merchandise that is serviced by the suppliers.

You get nothing for free in this life. Everything is calculated into the distributors selling price and that includes servicing your frame display, the golf game invitations, the various spiffs, give away's and many more.

When you think that you are ahead of the game by going along with this system you are actually paying 30% to 50% more for your frames.

By purchasing outright and getting the right discounts you could actually sell for less than your competitors and make the equivalent end profit, or you could sell at the same price as your competitors and nearly double your profit. See Harris post above.

The supermarket way you pay only what you sell...............but they work on volume and their selling prices are in the single digits.

The independent optician does not have the volume and should be able to work on a decent markup. So why not purchase the way one could make the best profit.

And if you have some dead beats that do not sell find a way to get rid of them at a better price or cost to somebody that wants to save money.

[Fezz]

How come you know of my past life...........? I used to be a good one on top of that, .............but that is a long time ago.

Today I am a plain simple business man that runs a business were you have to make decisions that can make or break you.

Opticians have always been a profession when they are good ones they build up a good business, make good money and can afford a decent life style.

I do not see that a good business man has to rely on borrowed money (frames) forever.........and that is the gimmick with consignment merchandise that is serviced by the suppliers.

You get nothing for free in this life. Everything is calculated into the distributors selling price and that includes servicing your frame display, the golf game invitations, the various spiffs, give away's and many more.

When you think that you are ahead of the game by going along with this system you are actually paying 30% to 50% more for your frames.

By purchasing outright and getting the right discounts you could actually sell for less than your competitors and make the equivalent end profit, or you could sell at the same price as your competitors and nearly double your profit. See Harris post above.

The supermarket way you pay only what you sell...............but they work on volume and their selling prices are in the single digits.

The independent optician does not have the volume and should be able to work on a decent markup. So why not purchase the way one could make the best profit.

And if you have some dead beats that do not sell find a way to get rid of them at a better price or cost to somebody that wants to save money.


Very good response Chris! Thanks.

If we all would think that way, maybe the price of frames and lenses could come down for EVERYBODY!!!!!



Fezz
:cheers:

[cganes2]

What great info....I totally agree, and have personally never been sucked in by the system since the first time they got me. As you said, if you can't sell ,get on down the road!! What I told my suppliers was give me your best shot( discount) and we'll separate the men from the boys here, and that seems to have worked for a good many years for my business. I still think that it's just "nuts" to buy from your direct competition, and line their wholesale pockets so they can put all the Mom and Pops out of business retail wise ...what's everyone's feeling on that?:hammer:

[hcjilson]

I just wonder where all this rancor was when Dean Butler and Ban Hudson were around. I think its ridiculous to come down on a company like everyone does on Luxottica. They make a quality product, they sell it with an extremely knowledgable competent and professional sales force, and one of their divisions happens to be an optical retailer. They got where they are with a lot of hard work and brain power. There isn't one person reading this that can't do the same thing if that's their goal. The DelVechio's put their pants on one leg at a time just like we do. Stop complaining and stop telling tall tales to support your faulty reasoning.

[cganes2]

I'm not complaining or telling tales...just observing how we, as independent retailers, are lining the pockets of our competition thru the back door...Of course I will respect anyone that's successful, knowing first hand how difficult it is... However...I am a big supporter of independent opticians , and just wondered....

[hcjilson]

The implication here is that the independent is not being supported by a Lux, and I think thats far from the truth. How far will Lux be able to go without their market? Not far, I guarantee you. Of course they support independents! Competition is a fact of life in a capitalist economy. The name of the game is to be better than the competition, not to knock them.

[Angels Rock]

Nope the order was cancelled the same day it was made. Like within an hour. If he had just sent me back the frames that I was returning then all would be fine but he didnt and then sent us a, 2 new frames to 1 old frame order. Along with a $1300. statement. Now the rep will not call me, his reagional manager will not help, the assisant to the Vice President of sales just refered back to the reigonal manager who still is yet to call me. For a week and a half I have been leaving messages on the voice mail of the Vice President of sales who is yes to call me. Makes one wonder why no one wants to call me, I'm not going to beat them up, I just want to return this order. Thay are lucky that I am not wanting them to take back the 50 sunglasses we found along with this order, take their name off our door and let everyone else in town know how poor a service I have received from them.

CCGreen,

I will give you my perspective from a reps point of view and it is based purely on assumption since I don't know the whole story or what type of relationship this office had with the rep in the past. Since you are new to the practice you probably don't either.

First I can't imagine the rep not wanting to work with an acct. that he has had a good working relationship with in the past. Which leads me to believe that this is not the first time that this happened. You wouldn't know past history since you are new here. Personally my policy is if you work with me I'll work with you but who knows if that has happened here in the past. Doesn't sound like it.

Secondly, the rep spent his time out of his day, not including driving time, for something that was not making him any money to do you a favor. Only to have the order cancelled not long after they left. I wouldn't be happy about that either.

As far as the 2 for 1, do you have a copy of the exchange order. If your copy says 12 ordered and 24 came then I would say that is a problem and should be resolved. But again I don't know the whole story.

Sounds like you really don't want the line or the rep in there anyway so what is the incentive for him to help you out. Its not his problem that the old employee stashed 50 frames. He put his time in and should not be held responsible for it.

Face it, not every office is a good fit for certain lines. I have had accts. play the exchange game with me and after a couple times I just tell them that maybe this is not a good fit and I won't be back. I would rather focus my energy on places where the relationship is working for both sides.

Probably not the answer you want to hear and I may be way off base since I am going purely on spectulation but I have been around long enough to know that a good relationship doesn't go this bad based on one instance. Good luck.

[Angels Rock]

My first question is...why are you buying frames from a manufacturer that is in direct competition with you...My feeling on the whole thing is we as business owners should all get together and charge the frame companies for their board space, like the grocery stores do to the cigarette companies etc...We pay the rent, the light bill, and the payroll to sell their frames so.... why not charge them rent to display their wares in our offices?What is everyone's feeling on this ?

I can shed some light on this. There was an acct. out here that was at the time the single highest grossing single office practice in the country. They thought they would try exactly what you have suggested and decided to charge $5 per slot. This was a good 12 years ago. Every single major company balked and said no way. A few of the smaller companies said OK and got much more board space at the expense of the bigger suppliers who got the boot. Within 6 months they were all back bigger than ever and the little guys did nothing but lose money since they paid up front.

As for the companies that did take the offer it really wasn't the companies that ponied up the money but the reps themselves. They all lost. I would never do this and I don't know anybody that would. If you told me that is how you do business I would thank you for your time and move on.

[Angels Rock]

I must be the lucky one with my reps. The only time I had to exchange 2 for 1 was when I decreased my Versace and replaced it with Anne Klein. So that was a bit more understandable since pricing is definitely not the same.

We also took advantage of the sun promotion. I selected the offerings from Rayban, Revo, Persol, Versace, and Anne Klein, while the other lines were selected by the reps due to scheduling issues. What we did was say, I want 20 pieces of Adrienne Vitadini, or 10 pieces DKNY.. so while we didn't chose individual styles, they knew what we were looking for.

When we went into it, we knew full well we would be sending half of them back. The only reason why we ordered so much was due to getting the fixtures and the financing. We were told we only had 4 months to decide what to keep or what to send back. I had everything in writing, and at the end of the four month frame after the first arrived, we weeded out what we knew wouldn't work for the 2 offices. Now I didn't have my reps send them back, I took my invoices, spent a dollar on photocopies, packaged them up and sent them back myself. Shipping them priority with insurance and signature confirmation cost us about $50, but I had a several thousand dollar credit in 2 weeks.

My reps have all offered to exchange out what sun doesn't work for ophthalmic and vise versa. They all respond back to me very quickly if I am looking for a frame, or if I have a question. They even stayed in touch with me when I was asking them questions about my large return. I must say my experience with their reps have been outstanding. However, I now have two new ones, so we will have to see how that goes.

While I have many beefs with Luxottica, I have no issue with my reps.

Cassandra

Sounds like a pretty fair way of dealing with the situation. Like I said in earlier posts I will work with anybody that wants to work with me. Most of the rants I read on this board are from people whose first reaction is "Send it all back". I can't believe any rep would work like that.