Hybrid cars...anybody got one?

[fjpod]

I do a lot of local driving and was thinking of getting a Ford Escape. Maybe it's not the best in mileage of the hybrids, but it has more room.

Can anyone relate their experience wih hybrids?

[Framebender]

Come on Doc. . .buy a Harley! 45 to 55 mpg and if you need more room get a sidecar or one of the old 45ci three wheelers!! My buddy gets better than 70 mpg with his three wheeler!! You'll also look very cool!!
:cool: :D :cool:

[chip anderson]

Unless I missed something in the little bit of physics I have learned. You cannot change one form of energy to another without energy loss. This basicly makes the hybred a looser. Also makes the electric car a looser.

However I did back in the early '50's own a few Studebakers that got 35 miles to the gallon no matter how much the engine was past worn out, had enough power to pull a large boat, free wheeling, a hill holder (kept car in place when stopped on an uphill, and would do 85 mph all day long (getting 35 mpg) with 6 people in the car and all the windows down. All this with a heavy cast iron carbureted engine, a heavy cast iorn frame and real metal fenders and body.

Too bad Detroit or somebody doesn't want to make a planetary overdrive and use a modern light weight engine with computerised fuel injection. Bet it would do more than the old Stude and get 60 miles per gallon.

Not all progress is in the right direction.

Chip

[shanbaum]

Chip, how is it that even when you're right, you're wrong? What you say about energy conversion is correct, so far as I know. However, hybrids (and other electric cars) use energy that's normally lost during braking to charge their batteries - so there's a net gain.

That's why they're not losers.

Having said that, I think my next car may be a diesel Jetta - over 40 mpg without the complexity of a hybrid.

[fjpod]

It's good to see we don't just argue over optical thngs. Anybody else?

[shanbaum]

I suppose I should've added I agree with Chip's fondness for Studebakers, since I'm usually bashing him. The day they closed was one of the saddest in automotive history. Imagine what a updated Golden Hawk might be like...

I know RT has a hybrid SUV (I think it's an Escape), and likes it a lot. Maybe he'll chime in, or you could PM him.

[chip anderson]

I might also mention that Ford and Chevy had similar transmissions (although much poorer aerodynamics, and less fuel efficent engines) up 'til 1955.

Ford also had the Colombia two speed rear end for similar results, low gears for take off and much higher overall ratios that the silly fixed five speeds attached to the sewing machine engines now in cars.

When you had a 4:11 rear end for take off and towing and could switch to a 2:36 for the highway. You had something. Not to mention you could stomp it to floor which droppe you back to 4:11 for passing.

Chip

If I ever find a very good condition '54 Stude Champion Regal Hard top, I'll buy it, put in an aluminium V8 with modern aspiration and ignition. I'll expect at least 50 mpg and a top end of 150 or more.

Chip :cheers:

[rbaker]

We should be looking at the net economic impact that any system has rather than just gas mileage. The internal combustion/electric (Prius) hybrid vehicles do achieve a 10 to 20 percent average reduction in fuel burn which at first seems attractive (at highway speeds of 60 – 75MPH the fuel consumption drops to that of a comparable powerplant.) However, the economic break even point for the owner is some six years down the road due to the higher initial cost of these vehicles. In addition, the replacement of the batteries at the five year point is a rather expensive procedure and must be taken into account.

If we look at these vehicles from a broader perspective we find that any savings in fuel costs that the owner achieves are paid for by the general public through the hidden expenses involved in the disposal of the lead/acid storage batteries. When we also factor in the additional fuel that is used to manufacture the electrical components that are added to the vehicle – to make it a hybrid – we find that there is a net loss in the efficiency of these vehicles. It’s like a shell game – borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. The driver gets to save a dollar but his neighbors have to kick in a buck ten.

An interesting side bar to fuel economy is the loss of tax revenue that occurs as we drive more fuel efficient vehicles. And, to complicate matters they want the taxpayer to provide incentives to the users of hybrids.

This idea of fuel efficiency is relatively new to us and runs counter to the American automotive manufacturers. But, things are changing and higher fuel costs may be getting the attention of the “Big Three.” It will probably take fuel prices up around $7.00 a gallon (in today’s dollars) to actually have any significant impact. Despite fuel prices in excess of $3.00 a gallon discretionary driving us at it’s highest level ever. We will still drive 500 miles to the beach or mountains.

The hybrid is a way point on the road to much more fuel efficient (and, I might add, drivable) vehicles. We will probably end up driving internal combustion engines fueled by hydrogen produced by electricity from a nuclear power plant.

To respond more specifically to your request for hybrid experiences, I have a friend who bought a Toyota Prius for his wife and she loves it. He loves it too and bought a second one for himself. My cousin bought one for his granddaughter as a graduation present and to take off to college. She loves it. In fact, the only criticism that I hear from hybrid owners concern not getting the mileage that was advertised (but, what else is new) and poor long distance highway performance.

[fjpod]

I was considering a hybrid not so much to save money on fuel, but, as nieve as this may sound, to decrease the amount of money I spend on foreign oil. With the mid-size SUV I have now, I'm lucky if I get 12 mpg in the city. An Escape hybrid would exceed that by at least double. If everyone did it, we could eliminate consumption of imported oil.

Of course, as rbaker points out, you've got to consider whether the extra components which go into these vehicles consumes more oil in the first place. I think even after considering this, a hybrid will save on oil consumption.

Sure I'd like to save money. Sure I'd like to help reduce greenhouse gases. But, what I'd really like to do is stop buying imported oil...even if it costs a little more. Even if it costs a little more to power my car, it could save the US (and Canada, eh) billions in money going to hostile powers, which in turn cause us to spend more money for defense.

E-85 fuel (85% ethanol), hydrogen, fuel cells...are not here yet. If car buyers show the automakers that they want change by buying hybrids now, it should accelerate the changeover. If we keep buying the same old gas guzzlers, the auto makers won't change.

[rbaker]

Let’s see now, you do not want to put foreign petroleum products into a fuel tank that was made in the Bombay out of steel made in China into your Japanese auto which was made in Singapore and shipped to the Port of Los Angeles on a Panamanian ship to be unloaded by wet backs.

OK, you can either look for a good wood burner made in Vermont or buy your fuel from Citgo as the majority of their product line is domestic. You might also want to look up Willie Nelson. You might also want to be very thankful that so few vehicles are hybrids.

Sorry, just an attack of sarcasm. Your stated goal of using less foreign oil will best be served by hammering your elected pecker heads in Washington and Albany into removing the restrictions on the domestic exploration and wellheading of petroleum and the construction of new refineries, particularly in New England. And, remember, you ain’t just talking about gasoline here – don’t forget fuel oil. While you are at it, see if you can get these bozos to remove some of the regulatory requirements that, while well meaning, have actually contributed the unintended consequence of high fuel prices.

But, not to worry. Science and engineering will work out the solution. Legislation will screw it up. Some things never change.

[fjpod]

rbaker,

You might be right about pressuring elected officials...but, I was planning on buying American made...Ford.

[For-Life]

Buying domestic does not matter to me anymore.

The way I see it is the companies are either Japanese, American, or South Korean, so that money leaves Canada anyways.

Toyota, Nissan, Honda all have plants in Canada, and I support that. The fact is if I buy a vehicle I am supporting the Canadian factory jobs whether I buy domestic or not.

So I buy the better vehicle and that is Import.

[shanbaum]

Buying domestic does not matter to me anymore.

The way I see it is the companies are either Japanese, American, or South Korean, so that money leaves Canada anyways.

Toyota, Nissan, Honda all have plants in Canada, and I support that. The fact is if I buy a vehicle I am supporting the Canadian factory jobs whether I buy domestic or not.

So I buy the better vehicle and that is Import.

What brand could a Canadian buy that wouldn't be an "import"?

[For-Life]

What brand could a Canadian buy that wouldn't be an "import"?

That is what I am saying, they are all imports to us. But we are told that we should buy US domestic to support our economy.

[chip anderson]

GM and Ford make a lot of cars in Canada. Some of them for unfantomable reasons are postive ground. Had a mechanic friend who claimed to have worked on a Canadian Model A.
Don't you Cannucks know that someday The US, Brittian and Canada will be in battle with most of Asia. Support for each other will give us a better chance in the end.


Chip

[For-Life]

GM and Ford make a lot of cars in Canada. Some of them for unfantomable reasons are postive ground. Had a mechanic friend who claimed to have worked on a Canadian Model A.
Don't you Cannucks know that someday The US, Brittian and Canada will be in battle with most of Asia. Support for each other will give us a better chance in the end.


Chip

Yes and Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make a lot of cars in Canada. Those three companies are expanding here and offer new possibilities for my struggling area.

As for supporting each other, yes there is the necessity of that, however, the Canadian and American sides have been struggling as of late on the whole trade situation. I can, but will not play the blame game. This has caused great bitterness.

[chm2023]

Just bought a Prius for our daughter, haven't even picked it up yet. I think it's rather ugly to be honest but like the idea of supporting car manufacturers who are attempting to address the fossil fuel jones. I see this generation of hybrids as the beginning of this process.

[k12311997]

What brand could a Canadian buy that wouldn't be an "import"?

I second that. it seems most industrial nations have at least one domestic auto maker why doesn't Canada?

[Framebender]

For-Life turned me on to Sleemans Honey Brown. . .an excellent beer!! Who cares about cars anyway?? There's enough brands available. A good beer though, now that's art!!
:cheers: :D :cheers:

[fjpod]

I heard Coloradans are working on a car tht runs on beer. True?

[Framebender]

Why yes Doc we are, but only if we can get it to run on that tasteless stuff Coors puts out. . .not real beer!! Good beer we put in our own tank!!

:cheers:

[For-Life]

I second that. it seems most industrial nations have at least one domestic auto maker why doesn't Canada?

Just not an industry we ever got into. I think it would be a very difficult industry to get into at this point. Expensive, lack of experience, cannot get the materials for the same price, expensive work (with our health care our costs for that are lower than the US, but the rest of the work is more expensive), and why would anyone want to buy it?

[Snitgirl]

Let’s see now, you do not want to put foreign petroleum products into a fuel tank that was made in the Bombay out of steel made in China into your Japanese auto which was made in Singapore and shipped to the Port of Los Angeles on a Panamanian ship to be unloaded by wet backs.

OK, you can either look for a good wood burner made in Vermont or buy your fuel from Citgo as the majority of their product line is domestic. You might also want to look up Willie Nelson. You might also want to be very thankful that so few vehicles are hybrids.

Sorry, just an attack of sarcasm. Your stated goal of using less foreign oil will best be served by hammering your elected pecker heads in Washington and Albany into removing the restrictions on the domestic exploration and wellheading of petroleum and the construction of new refineries, particularly in New England. And, remember, you ain’t just talking about gasoline here – don’t forget fuel oil. While you are at it, see if you can get these bozos to remove some of the regulatory requirements that, while well meaning, have actually contributed the unintended consequence of high fuel prices.

But, not to worry. Science and engineering will work out the solution. Legislation will screw it up. Some things never change.

Dick, sorry but wet back comments are really not necessary!!!!:finger:

[RT]

FJPOD: I've had a Ford Escape Hybrid for almost a year now. I'd highly recommend it, but understand that it's not a magic bullet for huge gas savings. Based on experience, if you drive in a semi-intelligent manner, you can expect 29-30 MPG day in and day out (combination of highway and city driving). Not bad for a small SUV, and far better than the gas version. Drive it a little carelessly, take 2 MPG off that. Drive like a redneck teenager, take 4 MPG off that. As with any car, jackrabbit starts and stops, lots of quick trips, and a lead foot on the highway will detract from your mileage. Cold weather also has a negative effect on mileage.

The best feature on the car is the instantaneous MPG graph if you get the fancy hybrid display. I highly recommend getting that, as it gives you the best feedback as to how your driving habits affect your mileage. You'll find yourself quickly modifying your habits to get a "high score"--too bad you can't put in your initials when you do!

The most interesting part of the Escape Hybrid is the ECVT (Electronically Continuous Variable Transmission). It makes this the smoothest vehicle I've ever driven. I recently rented the gas version of the Escape, and found the regular automatic transmission to be clumsy in comparison.

RBAKER: Citgo is a Venezuelan company. And, um, no thanks, but I won't be writing to my local peckerhead for more New England refineries. That won't do any good when the billions of Chinese and Indian people that we're introducing to consumerism decide they want gas to put into those Fords and Chevy's that we're trying to sell them. Supply and demand--it used to be only US demand, but that's a thing of the past.

The real problem isn't that gas costs too much now, it's that it cost too little "back then". Milk is more expensive than gas, and we don't have to ship it in from halfway across the world. And we'll never run out of milk. Calculate the cost per gallon of Poland Spring water. Gas is a bargain.

[AWTECH]

The Hybird sounds like a good idea until you consider the upfront cost vs conventional engine price and the real unknowns are long term service availability and battery replacement costs.

Can you imagine when a Hybird is 8 to 10 years old and a similar gas only is the same age and valve of the gas only is $3,000. How much is a hybird going to be worth that need about $3,000 worth of batteries.

Just my perspective on the main topic.

Regarding foreign companies: Todays autos are parts sourced in so many different countries that the only know facts are the GM net profit dollars (or lossed $) go to GM and the Toyota net profit Yen goes to the home country of Japan. As far as manufacturing the cars some Toyotas are more american made than some Fords or GM autos.

[Ray Parent]

A friend of mine is playing a part in www.phoenixmotorcars.com. I've been following them for a couple of years and I really like how things are working out.

[lilchiken]

Can I ask a question here? Does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumor that these hybrid vehicle engines don't last as long as regular vehicle engines?

[hcjilson]

It's the batteries that will need replacing. 3 grand buys a lot of gas! hj

[keithbenjamin]

GM admits it's building hybrids to get good press, and not much else.

General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve its public image. "Hybrids are technologically of doubtful benefit, and expensive, but necessary from a political and public relations point of view," Lutz told Just-Auto. "Toyota has said, economically, hybrids make no sense. The reduction in fuel [consumption] does not pay for the technological content and cost of the vehicle so therefore economically it remains fairly nonsensical, so that's the left-brain analytical argument."

"The right brain is it's the popular thing to do, many people believe that if we all drove hybrids the world would suddenly get cooler again and then it's the patriotic thing to do because if you drive a hybrid you will no longer be funding the Arab terrorists, and so forth."

"So, with all those beliefs out there, you have to do a hybrid for public policy reasons."

"I don't care how much money you get out but when you've got two drivetrains, the sophisticated electronics and a big lithium-ion battery, you've got cost."

Lutz says diesels are also problematic. "The modern diesel is becoming more and more expensive as we have to have to gear up to meet Euro 5, which is very difficult."

"Let's not forget, a diesel engine is always going to be more expensive than a conventional petrol engine, that's the laws of physics."

In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. "We think running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the world," he said.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/07/21/lutz-gm-building-hybrids-for-good-press/#more-3454 (http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/07/21/lutz-gm-building-hybrids-for-good-press/#more-3454)

-K

[keithbenjamin]

"...the dust-to-dust energy cost of the bunny-sized Honda Civic hybrid is $3.238 per mile. This is quite a bit more than the $1.949 per mile that the elephantine Hummer costs. The energy cots of SUVs such as the Tahoe, Escalade, and Navigator are similarly far less than the Civic hybrid."

http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml (http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml)

-K

[dochsml]

GM admits it's building hybrids to get good press, and not much else.

General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve its public image. "Hybrids are technologically of doubtful benefit, and expensive, but necessary from a political and public relations point of view," Lutz told Just-Auto. "Toyota has said, economically, hybrids make no sense. The reduction in fuel [consumption] does not pay for the technological content and cost of the vehicle so therefore economically it remains fairly nonsensical, so that's the left-brain analytical argument."

"The right brain is it's the popular thing to do, many people believe that if we all drove hybrids the world would suddenly get cooler again and then it's the patriotic thing to do because if you drive a hybrid you will no longer be funding the Arab terrorists, and so forth."

"So, with all those beliefs out there, you have to do a hybrid for public policy reasons."

"I don't care how much money you get out but when you've got two drivetrains, the sophisticated electronics and a big lithium-ion battery, you've got cost."

Lutz says diesels are also problematic. "The modern diesel is becoming more and more expensive as we have to have to gear up to meet Euro 5, which is very difficult."

"Let's not forget, a diesel engine is always going to be more expensive than a conventional petrol engine, that's the laws of physics."

In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. "We think running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the world," he said.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/07/21/lutz-gm-building-hybrids-for-good-press/#more-3454 (http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/07/21/lutz-gm-building-hybrids-for-good-press/#more-3454)

-K
Ethanol is not as efficient as gasoline. It is known that a tank full of straight ethanol would only produce about 68% of the power as the same tank filled with straight gasoline. (Road & Track, Tech Tidbits August 2006). Are we looking for efficiency or just to replace gasoline? Assuming this formula is correct, you would have to burn more fuel to get the same distance as on straight gasoline. Currently a lot of pumps either use E10 or E15 gasoline. Using this formula.....

0.9 (gasoline) + 0.1x0.68 (ethanol) = 97% as efficient as straight gas

0.15 (gasoline) + 0.85x0.68 (ethanol) = 73% as efficient as straight gas

If E85 is the answer, I hope it is at least 27% cheaper than straight gas because we will be filling up that more often in a one for one comparison.

[Pete Hanlin]

Interesting discussion... The hybrids I find most compelling are the gas/electric hybrids where the combustion engine does most of the work and the electric merely conserves the energy usually lost when braking.

Given current technology, any hydrogen car is- in my opinion anyway- just a silly political statement. The amount of energy necessary to create the hydrogen fuel (and that energy is usually derived from burning fossil fuels) is greater than the energy created by the hydrogen. In short, all things considered (pun intended- you'll never see this view considered on NPR) a gasoline-powered car is greener than a hydrogen vehicle! Given the junk that goes into batteries, I'm not sure electric cars are all that green, either (having a few on the road is great- converting everyone to them would likely result in a used-battery recycling/disposal problem).

I think high-efficiency diesel may be the best practical answer (which seems to be Robert's conclusion as well). Petrol products simply have a very high amount of easily accessed energy relative to volume, so why not simply work to become more efficient with the existing energy source? With the turbo-diesels out there, you don't even have to compromise on performance!

Regarding Canadian-made vehicles, our Ford Expedition (which we obviously didn't purchase for the fuel economy) was built/assembled in Canada (according to the sticker under the hood). Its been the (knock on wood) most reliable long-term vehicle we've ever owned (had it for about 7 years now... still running strong).

[dochsml]

I agree, diesel is the way to go. If you want a hybrid car, how about a diesel generator powering four separate electric motors at each wheel? Kind of how a diesel locomotive works. :idea:

[Wes Trayner]

I have owned a Honda Civic hybrid for over a year now and have averaged 38 mpg overall including 2 summers now with the air conditioning running on high here in the Arizona desert. Without the A/C on I get 45+ mpg and it gets its best mileage at 60 mph. There are guages on my dash that indicate what my gas mileage is at any given time. These numbers bear out against computing gallons used vs miles driven. Honda says that their batteries are expected to last for the life of the car and not need replacing. This is based on the fact that they have had hybrid cars on the road for almost ten years now and there has not been any overall need for battery replacements. The car runs good and has average take off from a stop and cruises easily at 80 mph although the mileage starts to drop significantly. The batteries and the charging system did seem to not work as well recently when the temperatures got to 118 degrees here. I asked the service department at my dealer and was told that the 2005 models did seem to display that kind of behavior and that steps had been taken to address the problem in 2006.

All things considered, I am very happy with the car.

[chip anderson]

Get an old Studebaker.

[QDO1]

I drive a GM (vauxhaul) Omega (caterea) with a gas conversion - petrol/LPG... and it is fab