Ipseo

[Mike Fretto]

What are the thoughts out there on the new Ipseo by Varilux. We have done a few and it seems to work well.

[Judy Canty]

Wish I could help but we haven't seen any info as yet. Is it in general distribution or only in selected markets? Pete?

[Pete Hanlin]

Varilux Ipseo is currently available through a small network of about 120 private practices in the northeast and southeast. By the end of the year, around 250 offices should be dispensing the product.

The reason for the limited availability is three-fold. First, the Vision Print System- which is the instrument used to measure a patient's head/eye movement ratio- is available in limited supply. Second, the in-office training and support required to place a VPS unit requires resources to train the lens consultant, the office, and the laboratory who will be fulfilling the orders. Third, Varilux Ipseo is available in 1.67 with Crizal Alize only. The high index and AR market in America lags behind those in other markets, so identifying offices with sustained usage of these products is a must for success.

Once we do place a VPS unit, the success rate is pretty high. The biggest obstacle has been practices that have trouble positioning a $600 lens. I would be interested to hear how you position the VPS unit, and the product in your practice- Mike. I am always interested to hear how the product is received in "real life."

By the end of next year, I believe there should be about 500 units in place around the country. If you are interested in having Varilux Ipseo in your practice, I would suggest contacting your Essilor Brand Consultant. This isn't a mainstream product yet- merely an introduction to the future of progressive lenses. There will be future designs which will also utilize the head/eye movement ratio measurements.

[For-Life]

We hope to be fitting the lens up in September or October.

[Jedi]

Pete,
Is the Transition V lens available in the US currently?

[Lewy]

It's just become available in the Uk having had the clear lens since last November. it's not cheap, retailing at about $800 at a guess. Sales are fairly low in comparison to say Comfort or Panamic but it seems to go in waves, nothing 1 week and several the next. If someone wants the 'best' then the Ipseo fits the bill. If you want a lens that doesn't appear to non tol then again the ipseo is the lens. Results have been very good I just wish I was a better salesman <grin>. The use of the Vision Print system certainly helps as Px's then see that more care and attention is needed to fit the lenses and can the percieve a greater value in the product. As an opener I now use the phrase to existing Vx wearers "what improvements could we make to your lenses?" This usually leads on the the benefits of optimized visual zones more comfortable vision etc and leads to an order.


Just my pennyworth.

Lewy

[For-Life]

It might be expensive, but if people are willing to spend $10,000 on a Plasma TV to get a better picture (see better) then would they not be willing to pay $800 for a pair of lenses that will help them see better?

[Jedi]

As an opener I now use the phrase to existing Vx wearers "what improvements could we make to your lenses?"

I like it.

For-life,
That's the right idea.
I also like to think of the amatuer golfer that buys the $600 driver, $2000 irons, $400 putter, $10 a pop balls and wears $15 gas station sunglasses.
:hammer:

[For-Life]

I have to give Essilor credit with the set up for this though. With the Ipseo you get:

- The best AR (Alize)
- The best high index lens (1.67)
- Free Transitions if you want
- They put on a great presentation
- They will etch your initials in the lens

and

- they only do it with the second best residul colour (Alize - green, instead of D Alize - blue):hammer:

[SkiBunny]

It might be expensive, but if people are willing to spend $10,000 on a Plasma TV to get a better picture (see better) then would they not be willing to pay $800 for a pair of lenses that will help them see better?
Your point is quite valid, however.....

Plasma televisions are below $3000 now, and according to Consumer Reports should drop another 50% over the next year. LCD sets are superior to plasma and getting larger every month.

The problem with paying $800 for lenses is that for brand new presbyopes the Rx changes quickly - my OD says I'll need new lenses probably in 12-18 months. The LCD television will last two decades.

And if you get a 60-inch TV, then it's big enough that you can see it without getting new specs :D

[rsandr]

It might be expensive, but if people are willing to spend $10,000 on a Plasma TV to get a better picture (see better) then would they not be willing to pay $800 for a pair of lenses that will help them see better?
Do you not think that like everything else in life (better nappies, whiter than white soap powder etc) PAL manufacturers are falling over themselves to improve on products that may have already reached their pinnacle?
I find that many PAL wearers are more than happy with even some of the budget lenses on the market. Is there really a massive amount of room for improvement?
It also seems that current 'improvements' seem to move production even further away from the capabilities of the smaller independent lab.
Before much longer I feel like there will be lenses we cannot produce being sold into frames we cannot glaze. Not a good thing IMO.

Rick

[For-Life]

Do you not think that like everything else in life (better nappies, whiter than white soap powder etc) PAL manufacturers are falling over themselves to improve on products that may have already reached their pinnacle?
I find that many PAL wearers are more than happy with even some of the budget lenses on the market. Is there really a massive amount of room for improvement?
It also seems that current 'improvements' seem to move production even further away from the capabilities of the smaller independent lab.
Before much longer I feel like there will be lenses we cannot produce being sold into frames we cannot glaze. Not a good thing IMO.

Rick

It is evolution of products.


Really, what do we need in a car? We need it to move. Do we really need power steering, power locks, power windows, power brakes, air bags, anti-lock breaks, V-8, Air Conditioning, DVD players, a stereo, leather seats, heated seats, automatic transmission, chrome rims, sun roofs, ect. ect. ect?

Why don't we just go back to glass flat tops, or even better yet, two pairs. No AR, no transitions, no lightness, no thinness, inconvientent, in a black plastic frame.


Vision is that of a great thing, and the more we can improve our vision the better. This is not a materialistic thing, it is an every day thing we have to put up with. If you can get a lens that will substantially make life easier, and get rid of the distortion in the lens (moving it to areas where the user does not use it) you do not think that is worth it?

[MicheleS]

We have fit 28 patients in the Ipseo since July 1st. Great success so far. Out of the mix, we've taken 2 patients out of Tri-focals, 4 patients out of bi-focals and the remainer were previous progressive or single vision wearers. Price is high but patients have commented after wering the lens for a few days that it was well worth the cost.

[Lewy]

It is evolution of products.


Really, what do we need in a car? We need it to move. Do we really need power steering, power locks, power windows, power brakes, air bags, anti-lock breaks, V-8, Air Conditioning, DVD players, a stereo, leather seats, heated seats, automatic transmission, chrome rims, sun roofs, ect. ect. ect?



Yes we do need all those things. Try driving an old model after a new one!

If new products didn't evolve then business would either stagnate or dissapear altogether. Would you be happy listening to a 78rpm LP on a wind up gramaphone, or would you rather listen to MP3's on your Ipod?

Lewy

[For-Life]

We have fit 28 patients in the Ipseo since July 1st. Great success so far. Out of the mix, we've taken 2 patients out of Tri-focals, 4 patients out of bi-focals and the remainer were previous progressive or single vision wearers. Price is high but patients have commented after wering the lens for a few days that it was well worth the cost.

Wow, just wow!

I mean how many other PAL's can do that. I have always been told to never, ever take a trifocal wearer and put them in a PAL. It shows you that this lens is actually different from those on the market.

[Bill West]

If this lens retails for say an average of $700.00 a pair. what is the profit in $ and in % to the dispenser? Are we making quite a bit more or just lining the pockets of a large corp that is always looking for an edge. Some people in this country have so much $ that it don't matter, but the vast majority will still appreciate the Navigator in Sunsensors for $ 250.00. I'll go with the masses on this one.
Gee, maybe I should work more than 3.5 days a week, could I make more $ ?

[For-Life]

If this lens retails for say an average of $700.00 a pair. what is the profit in $ and in % to the dispenser? Are we making quite a bit more or just lining the pockets of a large corp that is always looking for an edge. Some people in this country have so much $ that it don't matter, but the vast majority will still appreciate the Navigator in Sunsensors for $ 250.00. I'll go with the masses on this one.
Gee, maybe I should work more than 3.5 days a week, could I make more $ ?

Err...

Similar or a little less than regular. I know my percentage upgrade will be lower when I do it, but still make a good penny. Word of mouth with this product is huge. But remember, this product comes with:

- 1.67 Index only
- Alize only
- Transitions V if you want
- Your (customer) initials engraved in the lens if you want

So go and price this product out to a pair of Panamic's at 1.67 Alize Transitions. It will be a little more, but not too much more.

[lensguy]

There are companays that are far beyond this stage of evolution with progressives ( Zeiss Individual and Rodenstock Impression).
Essilor seems to have you choose between a hard and soft design, but they do it with a tool (?). Others give you the freedom to CHANGE lens properties according to much more significant data ( vertex, panto, wrap and actual inset far and near pd's)

I have tried all 3 and found the Zeiss and Rodenstock more "Individual" (except for patients initials, nice touch!!)

[rsandr]

It is evolution of products.


Really, what do we need in a car? We need it to move. Do we really need power steering, power locks, power windows, power brakes, air bags, anti-lock breaks, V-8, Air Conditioning, DVD players, a stereo, leather seats, heated seats, automatic transmission, chrome rims, sun roofs, ect. ect. ect?

Why don't we just go back to glass flat tops, or even better yet, two pairs. No AR, no transitions, no lightness, no thinness, inconvientent, in a black plastic frame.


Vision is that of a great thing, and the more we can improve our vision the better. This is not a materialistic thing, it is an every day thing we have to put up with. If you can get a lens that will substantially make life easier, and get rid of the distortion in the lens (moving it to areas where the user does not use it) you do not think that is worth it?
But cars have had much of what they have today since the 80's.
Cars had ABS, air con, electric windows, heated seats, remote central locking, turbochargers 20 years ago. Are modern cars any better?
Like I said things plateau, we do a budget vari that cost a few bucks, then there are these free form lenses costing 20 times more, how much better are they? If at all.
I reckon a lot of what people feel they need is due to marketing. I spoke to someone this week who insisted they *had* to have Varilux Comfort lenses. Despite my vain attempts to save them money they insisted so I priced them up for them. Upon checking the setup of their current pair I noted they were wearing Experts (unscupulous prior dispenser they had paid Comfort prices), says it all really.

[For-Life]

There are companays that are far beyond this stage of evolution with progressives ( Zeiss Individual and Rodenstock Impression).
Essilor seems to have you choose between a hard and soft design, but they do it with a tool (?). Others give you the freedom to CHANGE lens properties according to much more significant data ( vertex, panto, wrap and actual inset far and near pd's)

I have tried all 3 and found the Zeiss and Rodenstock more "Individual" (except for patients initials, nice touch!!)

The Ipseo is customized based on head and eye movement, not just hard or soft design. It is also based on the other factors you mentioned too. Basically, the other individual lens are mainly a molded lens that will help out wearers with a lot of astigmatism and make it a little clearer.

I have to question the marginal benefits between the Navigator, Comfort and some of the customized lenses on the market to see if the increase in value = the cost increase.


Rsandr, I think this is what you are talking about. Is there really a need to boost up the lens and can the customer really tell the difference. While these are PAL's I think the Ipseo should be classified differently, because the design is completely customized to the patients head movement, and while a customer might see marginal changes between the Navigator and the Comfort and maybe a little more into the Zeiss Individual, I believe there will be a major difference between those lenses and the Ipseo.

[phill]

What are the thoughts out there on the new Ipseo by Varilux. We have done a few and it seems to work well. We just recently started selling the Ipseo lens in our office, and are quite impressed with the reactions so far. Our toughest customer was the OD that we work for. He had LASIK a few years ago, but needs reading glasses periodically. We put him in the panamic lens and he did not like the limited reading area or the distortions in the periphery. His first word when he put on his new IPSEO lenses was WOW! So far we have dispensed maybe 20 pairs, and so far so good. We are excited to offer this product to patients that may have had troubles with other progressives in the past. If the patient is happy with their current lens, we are happy to keep them in it....but if they express any discomfort with their lenses we definately explain the benefits of the new lens. I think it is exciting to be able to offer the newest and latest technology to our patients. AND..I am so impressed with ALIZE'. What a wonderful product!!:)

[SkiBunny]

The Ipseo is customized based on head and eye movement, not just hard or soft design. It is also based on the other factors you mentioned too.
So does this customization make the pt fit even more important than ever? (or more difficult somehow?)

[SkiBunny]

I am so impressed with ALIZE'. What a wonderful product!!:)
Curious as to why... is it the improved scratch resistance, or the easy-to-clean-smudges gimmick, or the opportunity to make more bucks?

and aren't the zeiss coatings still better (no war strike intended... :) )

[d_75701]

Hello All:


Let's take a look at the big picture, and let's not fall into another marketing "trap." Understanding that a customized progressive is a neat and different option to our patients, and that others have had some success converting tri and bi's with this lens product, I have found that many of today's front surface progressive lens technologies (within the past 4-5 years) perform phenomenally with today's active patients while keeping pricing within reason. Also keep in mind, that by introducing more and more variables, and giving the patient the opportunity to introduce inaccurate data to the equation, thus leaving one baffled that they spent as you say $700, $800, $900????!!! for a pair of lenses that leave them with the same visual experience as their existing pair is unnecessary and not worth the trouble and long turn around time. Product 'adaptation' falls in the hands of the qualified dispenser to inform/educate the consumer how to 'learn' how to wear their new lenses, and to fit based on their overall needs, not with what will pull the largest buck. It WILL be a matter of time when this will be passed on to all of our competitors (insert chain retailer here), who will be able to sell the same thing for considerably less. Oh well....

:cool:

[For-Life]

Bunny, no the fitting would not be changed in anyway. All that happens is that the computer measures eye and head movement to determine what lens would be best for the customer (out of 30,000 designs) so that distortion of the lens is placed into areas that are not used.

As for Alize, gimmick, pfft...

I make less money off of the Crizal Alize than I made off of Crizal (per job). My customers love it because with the old AR they had to clean their lenses several times a day. With Alize they do not get that. Plus they do not get the streaks on their lenses.

Gimmick is something like believing a specific brand of lenses will always be better than any other brand. I like the Alize because it is what I use. I know that there are some competitors to it out there that work just as fine.


D 75771

The Ipseo is not just a molded Panamic. Like I said, it has 30,000 different designs (i know I sound like a marketing machine, but at this price for the lens you have to learn to market. Plus I have a marketing degree so...)

Also, if you saw the way and the time the machine takes you will see that it eliminates much of human error.



When I was finishing University I did a project where we had to do some statistics. While everyone else did a regression I did a Neural model. The Neural model was similar, but because it ran so many times it eliminated error. Just like how this machine is done it eliminates the human error.

[SkiBunny]

Bunny, no the fitting would not be changed in anyway. All that happens is that the computer measures eye and head movement to determine what lens would be best for the customer (out of 30,000 designs) so that distortion of the lens is placed into areas that are not used.

When I was finishing University I did a project where we had to do some statistics. While everyone else did a regression I did a Neural model. The Neural model was similar, but because it ran so many times it eliminated error. Just like how this machine is done it eliminates the human error.
Interesting... have you seen the ipseo fit to a real pt yet, and/or is it avail here yet? (pete's post seems to indicate it's availability is still quite geographically limited).

[For-Life]

Interesting... have you seen the ipseo fit to a real pt yet, and/or is it avail here yet (pete's post seems to indicate it's availability is still quite geographically limited).

I saw it once and talked to the patients who got it. Talked to several who do it, and am getting it soon.

[SkiBunny]

fitting height?

[Jedi]

Hello All:


Let's take a look at the big picture, and let's not fall into another marketing "trap." Understanding that a customized progressive is a neat and different option to our patients, and that others have had some success converting tri and bi's with this lens product, I have found that many of today's front surface progressive lens technologies (within the past 4-5 years) perform phenomenally with today's active patients while keeping pricing within reason. Also keep in mind, that by introducing more and more variables, and giving the patient the opportunity to introduce inaccurate data to the equation, thus leaving one baffled that they spent as you say $700, $800, $900????!!! for a pair of lenses that leave them with the same visual experience as their existing pair is unnecessary and not worth the trouble and long turn around time. Product 'adaptation' falls in the hands of the qualified dispenser to inform/educate the consumer how to 'learn' how to wear their new lenses, and to fit based on their overall needs, not with what will pull the largest buck. It WILL be a matter of time when this will be passed on to all of our competitors (insert chain retailer here), who will be able to sell the same thing for considerably less. Oh well....

:cool: I personally would feel I would be doing my clients a disservice by not offering the latest lenses/materials/frames or at the very least mentioning them. There are plenty of "good enough" lenses on the market and you are right about the adaptation being in the hand of the dispenser, but if you want to stand still and have the "big boxes" run over you keep refusing to embrace new technology and pass it off as a marketing trap. In order to rise above your competetion, don't let your personal feelings come into play while dispensing (it really doesn't matter you think a lens is overpriced), base your dispensing on technical fact, patient needs and patient wants. Clients that see value in a product will purchase it, whether it is a $50 lens or a $1000 PAL.

[Jedi]

fitting height?
Multiple 14mm/16mm/18mm

[rinselberg]

Also keep in mind, that by introducing more and more variables, and giving the patient the opportunity to introduce inaccurate data to the equation ...I'm not sure what d_75701 means by "inaccurate data" --?

The ophthalmologist or O.D. measures the patient's Rx.

The optician provides the more specific patient and frame related parameters, taking measurements as needed, to arrive at segment height, PD, vertex distance, pantoscopic tilt; etc.

The Essilor Vision Print System automatically measures the patient's head and eye movement pattern, which is used to customize the design of each Ipseo lens.

Where does d_75701 see the possibility of inaccurate data coming into the equation?

Reference:
http://www.visioncareproducts.com/45/lens_varilux.html

http://www.visioncareproducts.com/45/images/lens7.jpg
The Vision Print System is an FDA approved device ...

[Lewy]

Not all the time it doesn't! I recently had a Px who felt they had done the programme wrong. When i ran it again the results were completely different..To be sure I ran it several times and the results were then similar. Needless to say the Px is having problems with lenses made from the first set of results. What do other people say to Px's when undertaking the VPS? We ask them to look at the lights when they appear at random but aybe it could be phrased better.

Regards,

Lewy

[For-Life]

Today I found out that Hakim optical will be moving into a place a few blocks down. I found out the Zellars in our small mall might get an optical store. I cannot fight these guys on price. What I can do is offer products that no one else in town will and could offer.

The Ipseo is just one potential area. It is all about differentiating.

[SkiBunny]

If your town is a prosperous one and/or has people with heavy prescriptions, the zellers & hakim won't impact much except probably on the low end. People like me wouldn't dream of buying either low end or from zellers.

[For-Life]

If your town is a prosperous one and/or has people with heavy prescriptions, the zellers & hakim won't impact much except probably on the low end. People like me wouldn't dream of buying either low end or from zellers.

It is not as much that we are a prosperous town as much as we are the only mid to high end store in town.

We do have less expensive stuff, but we are the only ones who specialize in certain products.

The Ipseo is not for everyone, but for some people it is the lens for them.

[d_75701]

My response to "inaccurate data"



Most people hate taking tests. I know I did all thru my 'learnin' years, this was the last thing that I wanted to do. My point being, is that most everything the patients go thru in our industry is a test. Their eyes are being 'tested' for various eye problems, and corrected accordingly. This is not a single person on this board that has never had to do a DR's change. And, I am not placing any blame on them, this happens. Patients sit in the chair, and can provide responses that are no contusive to what is being asked of them, thus, the script is off base. I realize that we now, and have had tools available to us that removes this human error, but it happens.



Now, place that same patient on this apparatus, and give them another "test." Keeping in mind that they have accommodated for such extraneous errors, their will be occasions where the data is inaccurate. Who eats the returned lenses??? What's the policy then???



Knowledge is key; and yes, offering the best product for the patient is the right thing to do. I'm saying; let's not go overboard with this thing right away. Let's study others' results, and move forward. Labs will have to retro-fit, and others will compete. The first automobile wasn't exactly the best, was it????

:cheers:

[MicheleS]

Hi All,
My last post was on 8-4. Since that time we have fit 6 more Ipseos. To date not one patient has come back. We call every patient about 2 weeks after dispensing and I have taken on the task of calling the Ipseo patients personally. The comments have been positive from the 22 patients that I have called so far.
FYI, the first thing Essilor tells you when explaining how to present this to your patient, is do not say that it is a test, it is a measurement-A test is something that people pass or fail and it is not possible with the VPS. Also, the patient is not placed on any apparatus, they simply put on what looks like a pair of glasses and search for the lights-there are no chin rests or buttons to push.
I am posting because this is new to the market, I am not trying to SELL this product to you, I am trying to help you make an informed decision. Believe me, if and when I have a problem I will share that with you also.

[Lewy]

Michele,

When using the VPS what do you actually say to the people before teking the measurements? I appear to get some confusion in operation as I ask them to look centrally and then when the light appears on one of the stalks to look at it until the machine 'beeps' then look back at the middle. People then ask whether they should turn and look at the light. I am trying hard to come up with an unambigous phrase I can say to them.

Lewy

[MicheleS]

While pointing at the area where the lights are placed,
I say "these 3 lights are going to go off horizontically in front of you, I want you to search for the lights as they go off, I want it to be very comfortable and natural to you, whether it be moving your head or cutting your eyes." First I am going to do a very short demonstration, the actual measurement only last about 1 minute. After the demonstration I ask if it was comfortable for them or if they have any questions.

[Lewy]

Thanks Michele

Lewy

[phill]

Curious as to why... is it the improved scratch resistance, or the easy-to-clean-smudges gimmick, or the opportunity to make more bucks?

and aren't the zeiss coatings still better (no war strike intended... :) )

No way!! Alize' is definately a better product...Over the past 20 years I have sold many "not so good" ar coatings, so bad that I wasn't even promoting the product...until Crizal came out. The Alize' is soooo much easier to clean and the scratch resistant coating is much better also. I have even had pts come in and thank me for selling them Alize'. That is the true test for me....the pts response.. Zeiss does not seem to stand up as well, in my opinion. We have many more warranty replacements with Zeiss than Crizal or Alize'. And the cost of Alize' in our office is only $20 more than Crizal.

[rinselberg]

phill / anyone:

Is anyone ready to compare Crizal Alize with the new Zeiss Carat Advantage --?

This is the same coating that was known as Zeiss LotuTec in Europe.

ZEISS Introduces Carat Advantage
http://www.optiboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12087

View Zeiss Carat Advantage brochure in pdf format:
http://www.zeisslenses.com/4125682000258738/EmbedTitelIntern/Carat_Advantage_ECP_Brochure/$File/Carat_Advantage_ECP_Brochure.pdf

[Chris Ryser]

The Alize' is soooo much easier to clean and the scratch resistant coating is much better also. I have even had pts come in and thank me for selling them Alize'


How can you say the scratch coating is so much better. ?...............it does not serve as an anti scratch coating and is situated between the lens and the AR coating, therefore is not intended toact as a scratch coating but as an adhesive medium for the AR coating.

[SkiBunny]

why are these discussions about coatings all in a thread about Ipseo?
Shouldn't someone split the thread?

[SkiBunny]

As some say lenses aren't that much different, then maybe some should pick the lens based on its available coating?? (Eg. varlilux for alize or zeiss for carat advantage)

Thanks for the links rinselberg

[Bobie]

Varilux Ipseo is the best PALs that you can get for today and the performance with the price is very reasonable.

I waiting for PALs like Varilux Ipseo but design with vertical eye/head movement + individual and horopter that can offer far vision like SV , Intermediate and near like Rodenstock Impression Nexyma in only one pair of lenses and I believe that can sell at 5000 US$.

[For-Life]

BUMP!

I have been fitting the Ipseo for a few months and it has been rather successful; however, what progressive lens properly fit is not successful? While everyone talks about how clear their vision is and how great it is I wanted something concrete and here it is.

There is a client of ours who years ago got PAL's somewhere else and had troubles with them. The store then switched him into flat tops. Now I had no idea if he had troubles with the lenses because of a poor fitting or because he just could not stand the distortion.

So he became a client of ours several years back and we have had a good relationship. Now our store introduced the Ipseo in town and at the same time he showed desire to try PALs again. So he came in and we discussed his options. We told him that with a change from a flat top to a PAL that he will need to put a lot of work into it. He is still rather young so he was willing to do so. We talked to him about the Ipseo's and he himmed and hahhed over them for a month or so.

We then got him in for an eye exam and he decided at that point to go with regular PALs knowing about the non-adapt policy and willing to give them a try. He felt the Ipseo was too much and stayed away from it.

His Rx is as follows:

-0.75 -0.75 x 090 3.00 Base Out
-0.25 -0.75 x 090 3.00 Base Out
Add 2.50

He was put into Panamic's with D Alize.

He tried them out for about a month and just said that there was too much distortion and that he wanted to back into flat tops. That was no problem, but one of the staff here convinced him to try the Ipseo. He agreed and paid the difference between the Panamic's and Ipseo's.

He gets his Ipseo's and cannot see any distortion unless he really, really tries to see it. He cannot believe how clear and wide the vision is.


Now I think that is a pretty good case for the lens right there.

[Framebender]

Thank you for sharing it!

[mike.elmes]

On the topic of Ipseo, I will say that the results have been mixed. A good friend of mine who I fit with Nikon i a few years ago, has brought his ipseo's back stating that he prefers the peripheral vision, reading width, and the lack of swim in the nikon i to the Ipseo. Another client was in to pick his ipseo's up this weekend, and refused to take them home because he couldn't see as sharply in the distance as his previous pair. The rx is definately reading less than his previous, a compensation they made in the manufacture of his new lenses. They do this compensation business on Panamics too.
-8.25-50x13
-9.50-50x162
add 225
compensated to read in lensometer
-8.14-.24x34
-9.38-.30x140
Any one had problems with the upper limits of power for an Ipseo job?

I have had great results for MOST Ipseo jobs....just a few problems really.
Any feedback on the compensation of rx on panamics and ipseos?

[For-Life]

There are a few things I have found about the lens. First the measurement (vision print) is extremely important and it has to be accurate. Make sure you run a test several times.

The second thing is the Ipseo does attract nut jobs. We have certainly seen some of these posters on this board. These are people that cannot get used to anything, because they are nuts. So you have to watch for them.

[Bobie]

In Thailand , we not have permission to comment anything about Ess.... product , event in this board.



Then , I have to call Ip... instead.



Ip... still have weak point at distance like Pana... , because all of these PALs have very poor quality of vision.



Pana... and Ip... have been piority designed for comfort of vision , then they put astigmatism error around the lenses. With this method , they can reduce swimming effect in peripheral and still have wide vision field at all distance in the day time in Plus SPH. , but the quality of vision will reduce at night time and more reduce in High Myopia or High CYL.



We try to report the problem of Pana... and Ip.. to Es.. dealer in Thailand , but they never listen to us and they force to close our website www.apcthai.com .



Another point that you have to careful about Pana.. and Ip.. is the ABBE of 1.67 material that have ABBE only 32 , that will reduce quality of vision for Myopia.



It is not fair for customer who pay a lot of money to get ABBE 32!.



We recommended ABBE 36 or higher like 1.7 Plastic Hoyalux iD Eyry or ABBE 42 of 1.6/42 in Rodenstock Impression ILT 1.6/42.



In Thailand , Rodenstock Impression ILT 1.6/42 have fully satisfaction guaranteed for 90 days in terms of " Just don't like " condition. , but Pana... 1.67 and Ip.. 1.67 not have fully satisfaction guaranteed like Rodenstock.



The PALs company always mark up the price more than 5 times for their profit , and they always say 5 times profit must be mark up for research , but my question is , if they already mark up profit 5 time profit , why they not guaranteed their product when the customer don't like their product or the customer who have to pay three time more to buy their very expensive PALs that have lower quality of vision at distance if compare with their old PALs.



We ask the optik shop around the world to force all PALs company to pay more responsibility in their very expensive PALs and if still have some PALs company whe not have enough responsibility in their PALs , why we have to pay the risk by our money or our optik shop name for their PALs? Why the very expensive PALs company not say the truth? Why they always protect their very expensive PALs?

It is fair for the optik shop and the end user ?



In Thailand , we can not say the truth of the weak point of very expensive PALs of Pana... and Ip... , because if we do they will force to put us to the jail.



Last week , they just close the webboard of Thai Optometric Association www.thaiopto.com (http://www.thaiopto.com/).



I feel like we have " PALs mafia " in Thailand and we also have " The Untouchable PALs ".

:cheers:

[The Critical Eye]

The rx is definately reading less than his previous, a compensation they made in the manufacture of his new lenses. They do this compensation business on Panamics too.
-8.25-50x13
-9.50-50x162
add 225
compensated to read in lensometer
-8.14-.24x34
-9.38-.30x140


Hmmm... do you think that the process that is used in surfacing these newer
generation lenses induces some sort of cylindrical error which influences the effective power and axis orientation. Combine this with the highly aspheric surfaces these lenses demonstrate... and hence the resultant powers.

There's one or two contact lens manufacturers that do the same sort of thing with their toric lenses. I believe if their was more cylinder power you would see a greater swing in the axis. There's quite possibly some vertex adjustment going on with the panamic and ipseo lens due to lens unique back surface designs.
I'm betting you'll see similar numbers with the physio 360.

...well that's my theory.. and I'm sticking to it.. until someone
shows me different.

[K5B7]

Hello,



I read your posted message from 8-5-2005 on "Ipseo" in Optiboards forum, in which you refer to the Zeiss Gradal Individual lens.



Quoting from its content:



evolution of free form


There are companys that are far beyond this stage of evolution with progressives

( Zeiss Individual and Rodenstock Impression).
Essilor seems to have you choose between a hard and soft design, but they do it with a tool (?). Others give you the freedom to CHANGE lens properties according to much more significant data ( vertex, panto, wrap and actual inset far and near pd's)

I have tried all 3 and found the Zeiss and Rodenstock more "Individual" (except for patients initials, nice touch!!)




My dilemma, as a consumer, is trying to make the decision between the Varilux Ipseo or Physio 360, both of which now are touted to benefit from "wavefront" technology, and Zeiss Gradal Individual or Gradal short-i, or Ophthonix iZON lenses - which IS based on an "eye print" of the cornea using wavefront technology.



Do you now have any insight into which of these lenses would give me the best vision? Although some of them might would require an exam specifically designed for them, my prescription is as follows:



sphere cylinder axis add PD



OS +2.00 +2.00 180 +2.25 65/62



OD +2.75 +2.00 165 +2.00



Although my optometrist said that I was not a good candidate for contact lenses when he was unsuccessful in fitting me for good vision in both eyes with contacts in the past, I would be interested in attempting to be fitted with contacts based on wavefront technology when they are available for my power soon.



Thanks,



Keith Boyette

yakbhoo@yahoo.com

[Bobie]

Rodenstock Impression ILT 1.74 is the best for you choice ,
but if you optiker can adjust the frame to correct parameter , then you can safe your money a little bit and going for Rodenstock Multigressiv ILT 1.74.

[Bobie]

Here , the imformation about Vairlux Ipseo.

1. New Progressive Addition Lens Design:
Utilizing the Varilux Ipseo Lens for Non-Adapt PAL Wearers
Jennifer Wong
National Award Winner of the 2006 Varilux Student Award Program
2006
case_rpt_Ipseo_for_non-adapt_PAL.pdf (http://www.apcthai.com/webboard/uploads/case_rpt_Ipseo_for_non-adapt_PAL.pdf)

2. http://www.apcthai.com/webboard/uploads/E51_Varilux_Knowledge_small.jpg
freeform_vs_customize_WhitePaper.pdf (http://www.apcthai.com/webboard/uploads/freeform_vs_customize_WhitePaper.pdf)

3. http://www.apcthai.com/webboard/uploads/Z66_Varilux_Knowledge2small.jpg BD8_Research-VariluxIpseoWhitePaper-VPS.pdf (http://www.apcthai.com/webboard/uploads/BD8_Research-VariluxIpseoWhitePaper-VPS.pdf)

4. http://www.apcthai.com/webboard/uploads/F62_eye_head_movement_small.jpg CF6_VariluxIpseo_Pdevie.pdf (http://www.apcthai.com/webboard/uploads/CF6_VariluxIpseo_Pdevie.pdf)

Tell me if you like some more!